Dragon Ball Super: Will Vegeta Skip Super Saiyan God?

By Jeremy Carden

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The Saiyan Prince has once again vowed to surpass the Super Saiyan God Goku by following his own path to the level of god.

While some fans have dismissed Vegeta’s attempts to surpass Goku as nothing more than the hotheaded Saiyan once again biting off more than he can chew, I think there is more to it that than.

Yes, I am a HUGE Vegeta fan. Honestly, he is my favorite character in the entire Dragon Ball franchise. However, I am not writing this as a Vegeta fanboy without using some details and information from the series to back up my theory.

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Please keep in mind that I am simply a DB fan writing on the subject of Vegeta POSSIBLY obtaining “Super Saiyan Blue” without going Super Saiyan God.

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DB Wiki (a website that can be edited by fans meaning that any information from it can be taken with a grain of salt) has dubbed Vegeta’s transformation/power-up against Beerus as “Furious Mutation.”

It is described as follows:

Upon being overcome by an extreme rage, the user powers up into their strongest form, however their power skyrockets even further than usual, temporarily blanking out their eyes. In this state, both his skin and body turns with a slight pink tone and blue bolts surround him. Even when the user calms down after using the power-up, the power boost remains.

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Overall, Vegeta lost it after seeing Beerus slap Bulma which caused him to snap.

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This is similar to his assault against Super Perfect Cell after he killed Future Trunks right in front of his eyes.

The key difference here is that even after calming down after his hissy fit (blasting Cell with dozens of ki blasts); Vegeta’s power during his rampaging moment was not sustained.

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Vegeta’s moment of rage was very similar to Gohan’s outburst during the DB series. He would go into a fit of rage whenever he was pushed into a corner, or if someone close to him was hurt by a villain.

From being smacked around with ease to beating the hell out of his opponent, Gohan’s power soared to new heights. However, that power would disappear when he calmed down.

Unlike his past moments of rage, Vegeta had gained a grasp on his enraged power during the Battle of Gods arc.

After the battle with Beerus, Vegeta’s Super Saiyan 2 power had increased from the “Furious Mutation.” He still had access to the power in that state, and was working to increase it even further.

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During episode 16, Vegeta was training alone on a mountain or in the middle of a wasteland. He was seen standing in the rain, and then began powering up when the sun came out.

It was almost as if he was trying to tap into the power he had used against Beerus, and from there take it to the next level.

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Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta perhaps?

Maybe, but sadly I doubt that because of the serious drawbacks that Super Saiyan 3 has when compared to the god level transformations.

In any case, I will say that a Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta would NOT be someone to take lightly.

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Considering the fact that Furious Mutation Vegeta was mentioned to be more powerful than SS3 Goku was (prior to ascending to god level), SS3 Vegeta would a lot stronger than SS3 Goku!

Let’s say that after mastering the Furious Mutation (which made SS2 Vegeta more powerful than SS3 Goku), Vegeta finally goes SS3. That would increase his power Super Saiyan 2 power by 4 making him over 4 times more powerful than SS3 Goku was!

Again, this is just an interesting speculation in terms of Vegeta surpassing Goku.

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Getting back to the true subject of this blog, I think a couple of questions have been raised about Vegeta’s ascension to the level of god. These are the 2 questions to keep in mind:

  1. Can Vegeta skip Super Saiyan God in order to obtain Super Saiyan Blue?
  2. Will Vegeta skip Super Saiyan God in order to obtain Super Saiyan Blue?

It would not surprise me if Vegeta WILL skip SS God in order to get to SS Blue. However, I am not 100% sure if he CAN skip SS God in order to get to SS Blue.

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Saiyan beyond God is the middle form between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue.

After a Saiyan that has obtained Super Saiyan God reverts back to base form after the god transformation’s time limit runs out, their body can absorb that godly realm of power. This results in the Saiyan’s base form being on a similar level of power as a SS God.

Then if the Saiyan can truly master the power of SS God in the Saiyan beyond God form, going Super Saiyan allows the user to add godly ki to the transformation.

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Meaning that Super Saiyan Blue is a regular Super Saiyan transformation, but it has the presence of godly ki. Keep in mind, the Saiyan is NOT 100% god or 100% Saiyan.

It is almost like a Saiyan-God hybrid of sorts, but it is a powerful transformation without the time limit of SS God.

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Whis told Vegeta that if he learned to control his ki, he could potentially be able to surpass Goku.

Personally, I did not truly understand what Whis meant by that. Was he saying that a Saiyan with ki control could surpass a Saiyan at the god level?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t Goku and Gohan learn about ki control during the Cell Games arc?

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During their training in the Time Chamber, they learned to master the Super Saiyan transformation. This allowed them to control their ki output and maintain their base form personality traits even while transformed as Full Power Super Saiyans.

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Vegeta never trained under the same methods as Goku and Gohan. That was why he had trouble cracking an egg due to using too much force.

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This was very similar to Goku and Gohan trying to hold glass cups during their downtime before the battle with Cell.

Will Vegeta’s training with Whis be similar to Goku and Gohan’s training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Basically, they maintained the regular Super Saiyan transformation as long as they could until it felt normal (their new base form).

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I’m hoping that in the next episode, we get to see flashbacks of some of Vegeta’s training. He has been on Beerus’ planet for 6 months, and Whis thought it was the perfect time for Goku to travel there as well.

This could hint at Vegeta being near Goku’s power, but the way he achieved that power has yet to be revealed.

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We do see Vegeta and Goku doing basic chores to help maintain the upkeep of the area where Beerus sleeps.

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After watching those scenes, it reminded me of Goku and Krillin doing chores like delivering milk along with farm work while training under Master Roshi.

If I were to make a semi-educated guess on Vegeta bypassing SS God to obtain SS Blue, I would say that the Saiyans participating in the SS God ritual got a small taste of god power themselves.

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I mean they are transferring their ki into one Saiyan in order for the Saiyan to reach SS God.

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Who is to say some of that godly ki isn’t transferred through all of the participants in the ritual, but only one truly ascends to the SS God level?

That explanation is the only one that I can think of that would actually make some sense as to how Vegeta could skip the SS God transformation in order to get to SS Blue.

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If Vegeta does skip SS God, I think that would be cool because it shows that he wants to surpass Goku, but he will do it on his own. That would be an interesting change of pace from DBGT where he had to rely on Bulma’s Blutz Waves device in order to become SS4 in order to help close the gap between himself and Goku.

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Whis could be training him to master his own ki, and the “sample” of godly ki that was given to him through the SS God ritual for Goku. This is what could allow Vegeta to go SS Blue which is a blending of Super Saiyan and godly ki.

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What do you think? I would love to hear your thoughts in the comment section below.

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?

 

Could Gohan Ever Go Super Saiyan 3?

by Jeremy Carden

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If the youngest son of Goku can become a Super Saiyan 3 (after fusing with Trunks) then what is stopping Gohan?

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If there was ever a time when Gohan was best suited to go Super Saiyan 3 it would have been during the Cell Saga. For obvious reasons this was not possible because at that time the level did not exist, the series was supposed to end after Gohan won but fan support eventually lead to the Buu Saga and Gohan had reached his peak power.

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Having some control of the Super Saiyan 2 level in my mind would make it easier to become a Super Saiyan 3. Considering that Vegeta and Goku reached the level through training it makes sense that they could transform to Super Saiyan 2 at will easier than Gohan.

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The death of #16 before his very eyes along with his dad and friends getting beaten by the Cell Jrs. caused Gohan to snap and let his emotions free releasing the power hidden inside.

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He did not train for 7 years opting to study and go to school instead of working to gain better control over the form like he had with the regular Super Saiyan transformation becoming a Full Power Super Saiyan.

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Gohan never learned how to just go Super Saiyan 2 without the necessary trigger to make him mad. Remember on Yardrat, Goku worked to be able to go Super Saiyan at will rather than being enraged in order to do so. This was not the case with Gohan and his new found power.

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You could tell that it was a struggle for Gohan to go Super Saiyan 2 after the fight with Cell. When he showed the form to Kibito it was clear that it was a struggle for him to access his power.

There are a couple of reasons for that:

1. Due to lack of training and as a result not being able to use the form at will, it was the cause of Gohan straining to go Super Saiyan 2.

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2. Considering that he was in an arena full of people, Gohan was struggling to contain his power and keep it under control. Similar to Goku powering up against Cell, he had to really concentrate to keep his power contained when he powered up to his maximum.

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#2 seems like a reasonable excuse because Gohan’s power only affected the ring and not the entire arena. It was very cool seeing the tiles floating in the air as he transformed and they all fell back into place after his transformation was completed.

However, it is also plausible that due to not gaining full control of the form it took him a few seconds to push in order to transform.

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The only time that I see Gohan getting truly enraged to the point of his power reminding me of his pre-teen self against Cell was when he saw Spopvich crushing Videl’s head under his foot. He was so angry that he turned Super Saiyan and flew out of the backroom to the stage. When Yamu appeared to tell his partner to stop fooling around, Gohan calmed down.

Seriously, I don’t think Gohan got close to that kind of anger when fighting Dabura or attacking Buu’s egg.

Later on when he confronts Dabura and Babidi with Superme Kai in order to stop Buu’s egg from hatching, he remembers what Goku told him about how if he used the same power he did against Cell then there would be no one who could stop him.

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Gohan was hesitating because it had been so long since that battle and he had forgotten how to unlock that unstoppable power. After some inner monologue, he powered up to Super Saiyan 2 and went in charging to attack but halted when Babidi exclaimed that Buu’s egg had reached full power!

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When Gohan tried blowing the egg away with repeated Kamehameha Waves, I don’t think that was a moment where he could have ascended. I say that simply because he was attacking out of desperation rather than using a level head.

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Goku’s transformation into a Super Saiyan 3 on Earth was felt all the way on Supreme Kai’s Planet where Gohan was training with the Z-Sword. Later on when he returned to Otherworld, Goku arrived on the planet and while flying with his son and the two Kais to get some lunch he told Gohan that he’d show him how to go Super Saiyan 3. This was not shown on screen but it would have been interesting to see all the same.

According to Goku these are the 3 steps necessary to become a Super Saiyan 3:

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1. First turn Super Saiyan

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2. Then push to the level beyond that of a Super Saiyan which is an Ascended Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2

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3. The next power has to come from deep inside and you have to push hard to find it so you can break down the barrier necessary to fully transform

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4. Tap into that and you’ll reach Super Saiyan 3!

Super Saiyan 3 is more about Ki utilization than it is about raw emotion or training like the other 2 Super Saiyan forms. Which means that Gohan would have to look at something inside of himself aside from his rage in order to get to the hidden power inside.

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I think that Gohan did Step #3 when he unleashed ALL of his power to win the beam struggle with Cell’s Solar Kamehameha and completely destroyed the Android.

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Goku told him to release his full power to finally end the threat of Cell. My guess is that Gohan was in such a weakened state that he was not able to go Super Saiyan 3. During Goku’s flashback to the first time Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 he was only able to hold the form for a few seconds before passing out from exhaustion since the two had been training for like 20 hours straight!

Or as I pointed out before that the form did not exist yet…not just in the DB Universe but in the minds of the writers for the show.

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Gohan broke down the barriers that he placed on himself due to losing one arm after saving Vegeta from Cell’s attack. That caused him to believe that his Ki had dropped by 50% or more and why he was struggling with Cell’s Kamehameha Wave. However, despite breaking through those barriers he wasn’t able to access some hidden power because he had already released his hidden power by going Super Saiyan 2 in the first place!

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When he overpowered Cell, Gohan was just using the Ki that he thought had disappeared after his arm got blasted. To go Super Saiyan 3, it requires a Saiyan to look deep inside for a new power not a power that was already there. Goku kept telling Gohan that he already has the strength needed to defeat Super Perfect Cell and that it was just his own doubt that kept him from finishing the battle.

Top: Cell's Solar Kamehameha Bottom: Gohan's Father-Son Kamehameha

Top: Cell’s Solar Kamehameha
Bottom: Gohan’s Father-Son Kamehameha

Let’s say Gohan’s full power was not enough and even if he gave the Father-Son Kamehameha his 100% from the start, Cell’s Solar Kamehameha still had more strength. If Gohan looked deep for more power then I could see him going Super Sayian 3.

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That is because he would be looking inside himself for a power to break down the barriers of even his maximum hidden power (Super Saiyan 2). I mean Goku went to a 4x Kaio-Ken to overpower Vegeta’s Galick Gun so I can believe Gohan going Super Saiyan 3 to overpower Cell’s blast.

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Could you image it: Gohan’s power instantly increasing by 4 as a Super Saiyan 3? That would be insane his blast was already huge but to have it grow in size/power by 4?! Whoa and Cell said his attack could destroy the entire solar system, I couldn’t imagine the destructive force of a Super Saiyan 3 Father-Son Kamehameha!

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*In the Dragonball Heroes game (only in Japan), Future Gohan is able to go Super Saiyan 3.*

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There is an interesting theory about how Gohan’s Ultimate or Mystic powers are actually a representation of him as a Super Saiyan 3. The only difference is that none of the major physical changes are present in his appearance. By that I’m referring to a lack of eyebrows and the extremely long hair. Not to mention he does not have that huge drawback of his Ki being depleted rather quickly in his Mystic form.

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If Gohan went Super Saiyan 3 would it be weaker or stronger than his Mystic powers?

Honestly, I’d have to say that Gohan would be weaker as a Super Saiyan 3 compared to his hidden powers being fully unlocked by Old Kai. The reason I am saying that is because Super Saiyan 3 is 4x the power of a Super Saiyan 2.

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Goku and Vegeta at Super Saiyan 2 were more powerful than Gohan was as a Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta says that Goku was more powerful than Gohan was against Cell. Earlier when Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 for Kibito, Vegeta comments that he was a lot stronger 7 years ago when he fought against Cell. With that in mind, if Gohan did go Super Saiyan 3 he would be weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Super Buu who are both more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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It just seems that his Mystic powers transcend anything that he could ever achieve in his Super Saiyan forms.

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This diagram (click to make larger) basically spells out how Mystic Gohan is ALL of his power being utilized without the need of transforming. Add in Super Saiyan 3 on the chart on the left and it would just be another circle added while the Mystic/Ultimate one would still be the same.

If Gohan went Super Saiyan 3 I think it would come before his Mystic form. By that I mean that I don’t think while in Mystic form Gohan would just ascend to Super Saiyan 3. I think it is something that he’d do in his Super Saiyan 2 form.

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We’ve all seen Super Saiyan 3 Broly in the Raging Blast games. Some clarify that he is a Legendary Super Saiyan 3 based on his lack of pupils, hair color and massive size being traits similar to his Legendary Super Saiyan form. If Broly were a “normal” Super Saiyan 3, then he’d probably look a little something like the picture above.

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Compared to the form we see in the games, I’d say this would be a Legendary Super Saiyan 3.

In terms of Gohan going Super Saiyan 3 it would be a normal Super Saiyan 3 unless he goes Mystic Super Saiyan 3 or something but that idea just sounds ridiculous to me.

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In the movies Wrath of the Dragon and Battle of Gods, we see Gohan “power up” to his Mystic form. That is what I think would happen even if he did go Super Saiyan 3, he’d just “skip” over it like Gotenks did Super Saiyan 2 in order to go Super Saiyan 3. For Gotenks, he went Super Saiyan 3 because it was more powerful than Super Saiyan 2.

In my mind, even if Gohan were able to become a Super Saiyan 3 he would probably choose to use his Mystic powers instead. I’d say that because it is more powerful not to mention less of a strain on his Ki supply. That would be the more advantageous strategy for someone who claims to be smarter than Piccolo and tougher than Gotenks.

Can Gohan transform into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 while in his Mystic form?

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I’m going to be honest and say that I do not know why Gohan cannot transform into a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 in his Mystic form. My guess is that Old Kai pretty much brought ALL of Gohan’s powers to the surface. By going Super Saiyan, it increases his power 50x or 100x his base form depending on if he goes Super Saiyan 1 or 2. So with all of his hidden powers unleashed going Super Saiyan wouldn’t be useless it would just be unnecessary.

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Old Kai told Gohan to unleash his powers by “Doing that Super Saiyan-thing you always do…” meaning looking for the power deep inside him and bring it out to the surface. This sounds oddly familiar to what Goku told Goten and Trunks to do in order to break down the barrier between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3!

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Considering he was able to go Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods in order to help Goku reach Super Saiyan God, we can rule out the theory that he could NEVER go Super Saiyan again.

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And despite showing the ability to go Super Saiyan 2 in GT but never using his Mystic power, we can rule out DBGT as being a time where Gohan could have went Super Saiyan 3.

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I also don’t think that he could have gone Super Saiyan 3 against Broly mainly due to his serious lack of training (despite the training he was currently doing with Goten before the World Tournament) and as I mentioned countless times before the fact that he didn’t have a good handle over Super Saiyan 2.

So there you have it! I think his best chances of going Super Saiyan 3 was back in the Cell Saga mainly due to his polished training thanks to Goku and unleashing his full power but going Super Saiyan 2. Moving on to after his power up from Old Kai, I do think that he had the potential to go Super Saiyan 3 BUT it was unnecessary.

Do you think Gohan can could go Super Saiyan 3?

Could Bulla and Pan surpass Goten and Trunks?

By Jeremy Carden

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Yes, I will be talking about the two female Saiyans in the show (well females with Saiyan blood in them).

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As a matter of fact, aside from Fasha they are the only female Saiyans that gets a memorable role in the show…

What I mean by them surpassing the boys is that since these two are born from “rivaling” families (to a certain extent), I think these two would be the female counterparts to what Goten and Trunks were.

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Of course the other difference is that unlike Goten, Pan’s father was Gohan not Goku.

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However, the end result is the same she is the newest addition to the Son family and along with that she has access to incredible power.

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Now, it seems that Pan is going to be born before Bulla due to the events of Battle of Gods with Videl being pregnant and Bulma not being shown or mentioned to be carrying a baby inside her.

Not to get off subject but I feel that the reason for Bulma getting pregnant again would most likely be due to Vegeta’s love for her. Whoa, why would I say something like that?

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Remember in Battle of Gods, when Bills slapped Bulma HARD, Vegeta got PISSED THE F*** OFF! That was when his Super Saiyan Ki (according to Roshi) surpassed even the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku!! I think he said something like “How dare you hurt my BULMA!!!!”

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That was when he went into a fit of rage actually managing to land some hits on Bills something that SS3 Goku, Fat Buu, Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, SS Gotenks and that other Z-Fighters were unable to do!

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After the events of the movie, I can see these two having another “passion trip” like they did in the Android Saga but this time there would be more than just passion but true love behind it!

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In any case, back to the manner at hand; GT was a real shame not just because of the lack of character growth for Gohan and the other Saiyan hybrids but Bulla was just…useless.

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Her only moment of usefulness (similar to Pan having only one making her existence somewhat bearable) was getting Vegeta to shave his mustache.

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Pan’s only real use (aside from being annoying and messing stuff up) was her tears helping Goku reach SS4.

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Also, in Battle of Gods it was Pan (unborn) who helped Goku reach Super Saiyan God! Wow, she wasn’t even born and already she has one up’ed Bulla!

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Pan was the one shown to actually have powers, true we see Bulla flying (once) but that was only when she was controlled by Baby. It is debatable as to whether or not she knew how to fly before. Let’s say that it was Trunks or Vegeta that taught her but we can’t be sure. If she learned how to fly, I’d imagine it was just for her to get to the mall faster than a car or one of the Capsule Planes could take her…

What a waste of Saiyan blood!

What a waste of Saiyan blood!

You know what the real shame is? Pan was only 25% Saiyan while Bulla was 50% Saiyan, talk about an utter waste of Saiyan blood and what is even worse is that aside from Ki training most likely from Gohan.

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She learned some martial arts from Mr. Satan and still proved to be more powerful in combat than Bulla!!

Hercule; I'm more powerful than a Saiyan?

Hercule; I’m more powerful than a Saiyan?

I don’t know what Bulla’s excuse for not fighting is but when you get out shined by one of Mr. Satan’s disciples (and possibly Mr. Satan himself), I don’t know what to say for you!

Pan guess what! I'm stronger than a Saiyan!!!!

Pan guess what! I’m stronger than a Saiyan!!!!

Bulma; My daughter is weaker than Mr. Satan???

Bulma; My daughter is weaker than Mr. Satan???

Pan and Goku; Uh-huh...

Pan and Goku; Uh-huh…

My life means nothing...

*face palms dashboard* My life means nothing…

I'm so ashamed...I disown you as a daughter!

I’m so ashamed…I disown you as a daughter!

OW! What was that for?! At least I'm not a cross dresser!

OW! What was that for?! At least I’m not a cross dresser!

Trunks; Can I pass as your daughter now dad?

Trunks; Can I pass as your daughter now dad?

SON OF A NAMEK!!!!!!

SON OF A NAMEK!!!!!!

Vegeta; That's it Bulma, we are having a third child and this time we'd better get it right!!

Vegeta; That’s it Bulma, we are having a third child and this time we’d better get it right!!

Vegeta should have pushed her like he did Trunks so he’d surpass Goten! I mean she is 50% Saiyan and her father is the Prince of All Saiyans!!!!!!!

Bulla_ss!!!

If anyone should have become a Super Saiyan it should have been her! Well just from genetics alone since she has 25% more Saiyan in her than Pan.

Of course being the daughter of one of the wealthiest companies in the world probably did nothing to motivate her to take the training route instead opting to go shopping, she seems like her mother.

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But at least in the DB and early DBZ days, Bulma never backed down from an adventure. She was spoiled but she was innovative, resourceful, adventurous, a genius even at 16, passionate, strong (well in a comedic sense especially when hitting Roshi) and had something that her daughter doesn’t seem to have; drive.

Bulma might have been deceptive, selfish and spoiled but when she saw something in life that she wanted, she went for it!

That was the whole reason she went to hunt down the Dragonballs; to get the prince of her dreams (and she got it many years later!).

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Bulla’s only drive is to shop at the mall…

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Now if you want to talk about genetics similar to how people assume how Goten and Trunks were able to go SS very easily when they were young because Goku was most likely in his Full Power Super Saiyan form when he had sex with Chi-Chi.

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In Trunks’ case, it is kind of likely that Vegeta WAS able to go Super Saiyan when he was born or if he wasn’t he sure as heck was very close to it, he had the power level to go Super Saiyan but just not the right motivation.

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Let’s go down that route; Vegeta was able to go Super Saiyan 2 at the time of Bulla’s conception while Gohan was able to do the same BUT since he had his “Mystic abilities” that MIGHT point to Pan being conceived while having a father more powerful than Bulla’s but that is debatable depending on how you view the Mystic abilities playing a part in conception vs. Super Saiyan.

Because if you view it that way, that would mean Goten has FAR more potential than Trunks considering Full Power Super Saiyan Goku was WAY more powerful than Vegeta was prepping for the Android Saga or if he was in fact a Super Saiyan at the time of Trunks’ conception.

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But I digress, seeing that Gohan’s Mystic abilities would trump Vegeta’s power that would either give Pan more potential that Bulla or at least even up the playing field since she is 25% less Saiyan than Bulla.

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True, Bulla again does have more Saiyan blood BUT only one of her parents is a fighter; the 100% Saiyan Vegeta.

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While her mother is just a human.

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Videl is too but she spent most of her life studying martial arts and though she might not powerful by Saiyan standards or by the standards set by Human Z-Fighters like Krillin, Yamacha or Tien. She is still in the ranking of the top non-powered human.

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True, she can control her Ki for flight and short range Ki blasts but she doesn’t have super human strength or even the power to compete with Roshi (base power 139).

That does give Pan a bit more of a warrior/fighter heritage if you want to put it that way.

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And most likely, true to her father’s power she might have the potential to experience incredible fits of rage boosting her power greatly.

This was seen when she was fighting; (here are some examples)

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Great Ape Baby Vegeta

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Natt on M-2.

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I wouldn’t count the fight with Haze Shenron, honestly that was the only time I felt she was CLOSE to going Super Saiyan just by how pissed she was getting due to being insulted. The main reason she was not able to transform was most likely due to the energy sucking pollution by the 2-star dragon. It was probably what prevented her from getting her Ki in control to make the transformation; remember Goku couldn’t even go SS while in the area.

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Overall, I don’t think that Pan’s power level was enough to compete with #18 who is still arguably the strongest female character in the series.

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Not counting Zangya since she was in Bojack Unbound and that was non-canon. But GT wasn’t canon either so…oh well who cares

But if she continued her training and found that right motivation this was sure to happen:

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According to most sources, it was mainly due to the creator(s) of the show never really drawing illustrations. So, there was really no telling what a female Super Saiyan would look like.

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A great moment was in “Family Bonds” when she offered her power to help restore Goku’s Super Saiyan 4 energy. Hercule mentioned that she was a little girl not a Super Saiyan only for Kibito Kai to mention that she certainly has the heart of a Super Saiyan!

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Aside from genetics and whatnot, I think that these two could not only become more powerful than Goten and Trunks but I feel that they could become Super Saiyans faster than they did.

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Why?

A sad fact of life that all men will hear at least once in their lives while they are children; girls mature faster than boys!

Seriously, that might do a lot in terms of helping these girls develop their abilities faster than Goten and Trunks!

Don’t believe me?

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Well do you remember what 4-year-old Pan did to her 17-year-old uncle Goten at the World Martial Arts Tournament?

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Yeah the pictures pretty much speak for themselves…

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Now just because girls mature faster, that doesn’t necessarily mean that their power could exceed Goten and Trunks but in order for that theory to be made into fact, the boys would have to continue training instead of goofing off in times of peace…

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I mean we got a “ladies’ man” in Goten.

What am I doing with my life?

What am I doing with my life?

Trunks was running the family business for Bulma.

Now, if Pan and Bulla both trained hard then something tells me by the time they reached 7 or 8 (same ages of Trunks and Goten in the Buu Saga), they MIGHT be more powerful than them.

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Remember Gohan’s boastful comment when he told Goten that he was the youngest Super Saiyan in existence? He was shocked to see Goten (age 7) already has the ability to transform, but now imagine the look on his face to see his record broken by two little girls!

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In Son Goku & His Friends Return, it is estimated that both Goten and Trunks (base form) have power levels around 530,000 since the two soldiers from Frieza’s empire who have taken over since Frieza’s demise are said by Tarble to have the same power as “Frieza did back them” most likely referring to his 1st form because that would have been the only form that Tarble knew about.

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Going by those numbers, turning Super Saiyan would make both Goten and Trunks’ power level go to 26,500,000. Remember they were kids not men like their fathers when they turned Super Saiyan so that number is understandable; their dads didn’t reach those power levels until they were in their adult years (mid-20s for Goku and Vegeta was over 30!).

Now aside from female Super Saiyans there is something else that the girls would have to accomplish to further challenge the power of their male counterparts;

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FUSION!

That would be incredible to see; a female Fusion Dance warrior!

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Seriously, I really hope that in the “revamp” of the series (if there is one or continuation) they explore the possibilities of making Bulla strong and do better with Pan’s development as a female fighter.

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Also take into consideration that Pan appeared to be the only living Z-Fighter 100 years after the events of the Baby Saga. There is no telling what kind of powers she achieved before becoming elderly.

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It was a real shame we didn’t see more father/daughter moments between Gohan and Pan.

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Or Bulla and Vegeta…

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Not to mention any brother/sister moments with Trunks. Most of his screen time was him being seen with Pan.

What do you think?