Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?

Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?

 

Dragon Ball Z Battle of the Fusions: Gogeta vs. Vegito!!

By Jeremy Carden

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Let’s see if we can put the final nail in the coffin by putting an age-old debate to rest: Who is more powerful Gogeta or Vegito?

To fully evaluate this topic I’ll be looking at the manga, anime, the movie Fusion Reborn and yes even Dragon Ball GT…

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In order to make sure I do everything I can to leave no stone unturned I will be looking at the series fans stick their noses up at due to it “not being canon.” However, Fusion Reborn is not canon either meaning that if I ignored it then there would be no debate here. I couldn’t do a solid evaluation without using the movie. Before reading any further, you need to let go of any convictions you have against non-canon material because without it this blog would not be happening.

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The main focus of this “battle” will be Super Saiyan 1 Gogeta and Vegito.

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I will be looking at base Vegito and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. Even though I wasn’t going to do it from the start, I’ll be taking a glimpse at the two in their Super Saiyan 3 forms just to spice things up. Just keep in mind that in the end, I’ll be deciding on who I think would win based on their Super Saiyan forms.

Power is one thing, but I think the main factor in deciding which Saiyan truly is superior can only be done by taking a look at both the Fusion Dance and Potara Earrings.

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Potara Earrings

This method of fusion was created by the Kais through the use of their special Potara Earrings. In order for two beings to fuse, the only thing that needs to be done is for one being to have an earring on their right ear and the other being to have an earring on their left ear…then there you have it instant fusion!

Of course this method of merging does come with its negative side effects…

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  1. The fusion is PERMANENT (unless you go inside of Buu’s stomach for his digestive enzymes to separate the fusion) and even if the fused being removes their earrings it will not result in a split of the two beings…they are stuck forever!
  2. If one or both of the individuals merging are in a powered up form it may result in the fused being having a shortened life span. As Old Kai pointed out to Goku when he thought going Super Saiyan prior to using the earrings would be the best way to get the maximum potential out of the fusion, the Kai said that the strain on the fused body would shorten his life

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Fusion Dance

This method of fusion was something that Goku learned from the Metamorans during his time in Other World. Using this type of fusion results in a new being much stronger than the two individuals alone and it only lasts for 30 minutes. Overall, this method of fusion is much more complex than the Potara method of uniting fighters because it demands much more from each individual.

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  1. Both warriors must be near equal in terms of height
  2. Both warriors must have equal power levels
  3. Both warriors much execute the dance (which Goku compared to traditional water ballet and fighting stance/pose) perfectly
  4. According to Piccolo, the two individuals must breathe in the same rhythm illustrating that both beings must be one in terms of thought, mind, power, height and pretty much everything for the dance to be successful

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So now that both methods of fusion have been evaluated, it is time to tackle the biggest form of controversy: Old Kai saying that Potara is BETTER than the Metamorans’ Fusion Dance.

It can be interpreted in one of two ways:

  1. Old Kai was saying that Potara creates a more powerful being than one fused using the dance
  2. Old Kai was pointing out that in terms of drawbacks, Potara wins over the Fusion Dance

Personally, I feel that #2 is the one that relates to what he was saying. Just by comparing the 2 Fusion methods it is easy to see how Potara fusion is better:

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  1. If the Fusion Dance is performed incorrectly even slightly, the end result is a failed fusion that is either old/sickly looking or VERY overweight
  2. The Fusion Dance only lasts for 30 minutes (less than 30 minutes the more powerful the fused being is)
  3. After the fused being splits due to time running out, they cannot be joined together again until a full hour has passed. This is a very bad handicap especially if the battle takes longer than half an hour
  4.  It takes time for the users to sync their powers and make sure that their poses are done correctly unlike the Potara fusion which simply requires the users to place the earrings on opposing ears

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After Old Kai gave his life to restore Goku’s, the Saiyan was excited to go back to earth to merge with Gohan to stop Majin Buu. Old Kai asks how he plans on defeating the Majin and if he really expected him to just wait around for Goku and Gohan to get to equal power and execute the dance in order to perform the technique.

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Overall, I think of the Potara Fusion as a Hot Pocket and the Fusion Dance as a pizza from Domino’s. While one method of fusion can be completed almost instantly (Hot Pocket taking a couple of minutes to be done) and the other might take a while for results to be delivered (Pizza delivery sometimes takes 30+ minutes) but it is worth the wait. Just keep in mind that convenience is not always the best option.

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Now there is another thing that Old Kai mentioned that fans have taken to heart in terms of saying that Vegito is more powerful than Gogeta: The Rivalry Boost

While watching the battle between Super Vegito and Super Buu, Kibito Kai was stunned at how easily the Saiyan was ripping Buu to shreds. Old Kai said that it is not surprising due to Goku and Vegeta being two of the most powerful fighters in this world (Other World) and the next (most likely referring to the physical realm of the universe below the heavens). He then goes on to say that due to them being rivals, it actually made the fusion MORE complete!

Basically, fans say that because Old Kai said Vegito is “more complete” it means that not only is he more “fused” than other Potara beings but he is more powerful than the average Potara being as well.

Alright, I will say that it does make sense and possibly means that Vegito is more powerful than “normal” when compared to other fused beings. However, I do not think that the “rivalry boost” only applies to the Potara fusion.

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Here is one thing that I noticed about the Potara fusion; it combines the clothing of the fused beings.

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This is not the case for the Fusion Dance which dresses the fused being in what is apparently traditional clothing worn by the Metamorans.

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In the case of Kibito Kai, it seems that the Supreme Kai (Shin) is the dominant persona. This is speculated by his skin color, voice and facial appearance. To me this illustrates the fact that Kibito was the bodyguard of his master Shin and when fused he is “present” in physical stature while the dominant personality is Shin.

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Let’s compare this to Vegito; the Saiyan has not only the combined clothing of Goku and Vegeta but along with that are their voices being blended and both personalities being shown in the way that they act. This could further demonstrate that their rivalry did indeed make their fusion more complete than Kibito and Shin where there was a hierarchy. Kibito served Shin while Goku and Vegeta (are from different parts of the Saiyan hierarchy due to their Saiyan blood) had a bond that kept them in competition with each other with neither of them “serving the other.”

Now despite the Fusion Dance being a different method of fusion, I feel it is important to determine whether or not the rivalry boost is exclusive only to the Potara fusion. If you ask me, I don’t think that it is…

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Looking at Gotenks, we have Goten and Trunks who are best friends and almost like brothers. Their bond of friendship is arguably as strong as the rivalry between their fathers! When fused, their voices (like Vegito’s) are blended together and you can hear both Goten AND Trunks while Gotenks is talking.

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The same can be said about Gogeta because after fusing you can hear Goku AND Vegeta’s voice when he is talking. This could once again demonstrate that the bond between the individuals prior to fusing might actually produce a stronger than average being after they join together.

So, there could be a “Friend Boost” just like a “Rivalry Boost” if you want to look at it that way. However, this is all left up to perspective and personal opinion. I really cannot see how Goku and Vegeta can get a “Rivalry Boost” in one fusion, but not in the other.

Now we get to the power of Goku and Vegeta prior to fusing to become both Gogeta AND Vegito. One takes place in the Fusion Saga while the other occurs in the movie Fusion Reborn.

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Despite not being in the official timeline of the series, Fusion Reborn had to have taken place sometime after Goku’s one day in the living world and after the revival of Majin Buu. This is confirmed when Goku tells Janemba that Majin Buu is the only other person to push him to use Super Saiyan 3 in a battle before. Not only that, the fact that the boys used the Fusion Dance to become Gotenks shows that Goku did have time to teach them (or at least show them and Piccolo took it from there) before returning to Other World.

We do know that the battle between Majin Vegeta and Super Saiyan 2 Goku did take place because Vegeta was in Hell just like in the main series after using the Final Explosion to kill Buu but it failed.

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In the series and manga, it is confirmed that Vegeta and Goku were equal in power at the Super Saiyan 2 level. Goku once again proves to be the superior Saiyan by increasing his power 4 times over with the Super Saiyan 3 form. In any case, Fusion Reborn shows that even without Super Saiyan 3…Goku was more powerful than Vegeta.

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After being sent to Hell, Vegeta was a bodiless soul doomed to wander for eternity in Hell with no memory of his former self. Goku on the other hand was on Grand Kai’s Planet training and getting stronger. This once again placed him above Vegeta in terms of power. When Janemba’s power caused a rift in dimensions breaking the boundaries between the living and the dead, Vegeta “awoke” to find himself in his body.

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In the Fusion Saga, Goku gets his life back when Old Kai sacrifices himself to bring Goku back to life. King Yemma sends Baba to return Vegeta (still dead but with his body) back to Earth to fight Super Buu. Goku and Vegeta are both still even (aside from Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 form) unlike their Fusion Reborn counterparts.

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One unanswered fact about Fusion is how the fused being gets their power. Some fans figure that the Fusion Dance results in a being with the powers of the two individuals added together while the Potara Earrings allows a multiplication of the two beings power (not to mention the “Rivalry Boost”). Honestly, I cannot give an answer because even I cannot come up with a solid theory on this. Something that most people speculate is that the Fusion Dance is a bit more complicated in terms of power because if both individuals aren’t of equal power that means one of them has to lower their power to reach the equal stats of their “dance partner.”

Trunks had to lower his power to match Goten’s so when the two fuse to become Gotenks, what happened to the “leftover” power that Trunks concealed to equal Goten’s? It is just another one of those things that fans are left to debate about.

30 minutes really isn't that long...

30 minutes really isn’t that long…

Another factor that needs to be explored is time. Considering that one fusion is permanent while the other is temporary can play a huge element in the outcome of this battle.

In terms of the Fusion Dance, the more powerful the fused being is after using the dance it appears that the 30 minute time limit is decreased.

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Gotenks can only hold the Super Saiyan 3 form for 5 minutes before he either reverts back to his base form or the fusion splits him back into Goten and Trunks. It all depends on how much Ki he exhausts and the condition of his body (if he is damaged or worn out).

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Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was so immensely powerful that he was only able to exist for 10 minutes before he split back into Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta!

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The Potara Fusion does not have this handicap because even if let’s say Super Saiyan 3 Vegito runs out of Ki to sustain the Super Saiyan 3 form, he would go back to base Vegito not Goku and Vegeta again.

If 30 minutes isn’t long then how can 10 minutes or less be enough time for Gogeta to wipe the floor with Vegito?

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Something else that needs to be taken into account is the body of the user of let’s say Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks is only a boy while Goku is a man well a warrior who is more equipped to handle the power. Vegito is worlds stronger than Gotenks and Goku in terms of power, endurance, etc. If he were to use Super Saiyan 3 then I believe he’d handle it better than Gotenks and Goku.

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Gogeta would be able to do the same BUT I feel that if he did use the form it would not do him much good because after a few minutes I think he would either revert to base form or the fusion would split. If he were to use Super Saiyan 3, he’d have to get the job done ASAP.

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Alright, so we’ve covered Fusion methods/time/power of Goku & Vegeta so now it is time to get down to what you all have been waiting for: Gogeta vs. Vegito!!!

The first thing that comes to mind when trying to compare these 2 is by looking at the threats that they had to face. I mean what was the reason for their existence in the first place?

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Gogeta: Goku and Vegeta were no match for the dimension-busting Super Janemba. After fusing into Gogeta, the sword-wielding villain was destroyed in a matter of seconds by the Super Saiyan!

Now you have to keep in mind that this was a movie and it could not be stretched out over the course of several episodes like in the main series. That could be one reason why Gogeta wasn’t shown displaying various emotions or being cocky like other fusions; Gotenks, Vegito or even Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta.

It could be because Gogeta KNEW the dangers of allowing Janemba to exist. If Janemba continued then the barriers between all dimensions and reality were doomed to fall apart.

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Vegito: Super Buu (Buuhan) was far more powerful than the 2 Saiyans and in order to stand a chance they were forced to fuse.

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Despite being anime-only, base form Vegito seemed capable of destroying Buu prior to becoming a Super Saiyan. For what it is worth, Old Kai did say that going Super Saiyan after fusing would not be necessary because the fusion alone would allow enough power to finish the job. You could argue that his statement only applied to Super Buu when Gotenks was his main power source.

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In another anime-only scene, Buuhan is literally on the verge of ripping through multiple dimensional walls at once.

This was one of the few if only times that Vegito is actually seen TRYING against the Majin. The Super Saiyan powered up to bust through Buu’s bubble and delivers an uppercut to knock him senseless.

Both Super Saiyans easily picked their foes apart with little to no effort and because of this we never saw the full extent of Gogeta or Vegito’s actual power.

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Something else to keep in mind is that Vegito purposefully held back a lot of his power to vex Buu enough to the point where the beast had no other option but to absorb him.

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This could possibly demonstrate the fact that the people fusing can actually have control. Goku told Vegeta that Bulma and the others were trapped inside of Buu and they can’t even die. Of course we know better because those “eaten” by Buu were killed, but everyone he absorbed was inside of Buu. I mean Goku didn’t really know that so I can’t fault him for being incorrect when he made that statement to Vegeta. I don’t think he’d lie like that JUST to have a psychological impact on Vegeta making him want to fuse with him.

Learning this shocked Vegeta and it made him want to fuse and with that being said it makes sense that Goku and Vegeta concocted the plan to be absorbed from the beginning.

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Before fusing into Gogeta, both Saiyans knew the threat Janemba presented to ALL reality and that could explain why he didn’t fool around and quickly killed the beast.

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Now I cannot really say what the case was for Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. I mean to be fair, I’m guessing that Gogeta was under the impression that he did have a full 30 minutes. He had no clue that he only had 10 minutes before the fusion ended. The power must have gone to his head and knowing he could defeat his opponent was what made him toy around.

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Even after fusing, Vegeta scolded Goku saying that it was “him” who wanted to play pranks and toy around instead of finshing the battle right away. That might explain the pointlessness of the Bluff Kamehameha that just covered Omega Shenron in confetti.

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Goku then retorts that it wasn’t “him” that was just the way he and Vegeta act when “they are together.” That actually makes sense when comparing him to Vegito and how he acted when facing Buu by playing with him for the whole battle. One could argue that Gogeta was waiting long enough for Omega to use an attack negative enough for him to reverse the power and lift the negative energy engulfing the earth before killing him. However it was shown from the defeat of the other dragons that if they are killed and the Dragonballs are brought back to normal free of cracks then the negative power in that area of the globe would be removed.

I suppose it is the urgency of fusion that might determine how they act after fusing. Who knew that psychology would play a role in determining who is stronger just as much as power plays a part in all of this?

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Another argument going on between fans is which opponent was more powerful: Super Janemba or Super Buu (Gohan absorbed)?

Personally, I feel that Super Janemba is around the same level of power as Super Buu (prior to absorbing the Z-Fighters). It is true that he is the physically embodiment of the evil Ki that resides from the beings in Hell which includes everyone like Cell and Frieza. However, I feel that he is not on par with the power of Buuhan. I do feel that his abilities will allow him to hold his own but still I don’t think that it would be enough.

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Goku was dominating Janemba in their hand to hand combat, but it wasn’t until he started warping reality did he beat the Saiyan down.

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While inside Buu’s head, Goku tells Vegeta that neither of them could defeat the Majin while in their individual bodies (maximum of SS3 for Goku and SS2 for Vegeta) and fusing was their only option to win.

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Inside the mountain made of needles, Goku says the same thing about how they’d both be slaughtered if they went out there to face Janemba again. This was pretty much not far at all from the truth given the fact that Janemba took out SS2 Vegeta in seconds and nearly killed SS3 Goku before that.

Notice that in both cases the situation is very similar with both Goku and Vegeta getting caught in a tight situation before the suggestion of fusion comes about. It is Super Janemba and Super Buu rather than Super Janemba and Buuhan!

Not counting the blows base Vegito took from Buuhan (without showing any damage at all), let’s take a look at a couple of punches that might add some light on this situation.

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Janemba powers up in a rage to strike Gogeta right in the skull and the Saiyan does not flinch! Buuhan takes a deep breath to calm down and teleports right in front of Vegito who reacts with quick reflexes to block the punch! Gogeta saw the hit coming and Vegito was caught by surprise so I can’t really tell how to interpret this. Does this mean Janemba was so weak that Gogeta didn’t have to block and Buuhan was so powerful that his hit HAD to be blocked? Buu unleashed a barrage of punches that Vegito blocked in that one position before he teleported away and dodged Buu with impressive speed. In any case, I still say that Buu is more powerful but Janemba has the techniques to keep up with Buu. Unlike Buu, Janemba can break through dimensions at will but Buu needs to be deeply enraged in order to do so.

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Overall, I feel that in terms of power Gogeta is stronger but not by a huge amount of power. The real question is: Would Gogeta be able to defeat Vegito before the Fusion Time ran out? I don’t think that Vegito wouldn’t be able to hold his own long enough to survive.

You have to keep in mind that these 2 practically are capable of the same abilities. I do know that each one of them has exclusive moves in their fusion.

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Gogeta has the Stardust Breaker and Big Bang Kamehameha

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Vegito has the Beam Sword Slash and Final Kamehameha

Both are extremely fast and can use the Instant Transmission which would make it difficult for one to land a hit on the other.

Not to mention Gogeta and Vegito have the combination of the never say die attitude, brutal and tactical fighting style of Vegeta along with the creativity and excitement of Goku. As Vegeta said in GT, Goku takes huge risks with his Ki during combat and it pays off for the most part. Goku even said multiple times that the more powerful his opponent, the more excited he becomes allowing him to fight at his maximum and brings out the best in him.

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I think if Vegito and Gogeta actually did meet face to face it would be interesting. They would finally be fighting an opponent practically as powerful as themselves. It would not be a battle where they could simply knock around their opponent as they did with Janemba and Buuhan.

Vegito would probably mock Gogeta for being formed from a “ridiculous looking dance” while Gogeta would poke fun at Vegito’s earrings.

I could see the “Goku” in them getting pumped meeting someone they can go full-force against. While the Vegeta in them would scoff at the mere thought of anyone being close to him in power.

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The battle would most likely start with both of them sizing up the other just to get a feel of the other’s power.

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Keep in mind that Gogeta’s time limit is on the line here. He’d probably have to be like Goku fighting Majin Vegeta saying that time is of the essence so let’s just skip the warm-up and get right to it!

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Now considering that I think Gogeta is just a tad bit more powerful than Vegito that might possibly mean he is faster. Remember what Vegeta told Cui about how a higher power level also means increased speed. With that being said, Gogeta would be faster than his Potara Counterpart.

So the bout between the Super Saiyan fusions might actually wind up with Vegito taking the fall.

Super Saiyan 3

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Depending on how you look at it, the battle between these 2 at Super Saiyan 3 could go 1 of 2 ways:

  1. Gogeta going Super Saiyan 3 means he would not be able to stay fused for a full 30 minutes and he might defuse or revert to base form before defeating Vegito
  2. The fact that Gogeta is dead means his body could handle Super Saiyan 3 better than the “living” Vegito.

Well considering that Vegito is “half dead” since Vegeta was dead when he fused with Goku might mean Vegito could handle Super Saiyan 3 50% better than Goku or Gotenks…and yeah that makes things a lot more complicated than it should be!

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Super Gogeta is 100% dead and as Goku told Piccolo and Vegeta, Super Saiyan 3 was easier to maintain in a dead body than in a living one due to the energy consumption. He says that in Other World SS3 was well easy…

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Even if Gogeta raises his power to the maximum, I think that his energy supply would outlast Super Saiyan 3 Vegito even if it results in his fusion time being decreased due to raising his power too high.

So the bout between the Super Saiyan 3s once again comes down to whether or not Vegito could hold out just long enough for Gogeta’s power or fusion time to run out.

Super Saiyan 4

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Considering we don’t see Vegito as a Super Saiyan 4, it would not really be fair or even a point to doing this battle. All we can assume is that Vegito has to only hold on for 10 minutes before Gogeta’s fusion splits. If he can do that then he could win by a “technical knockout.”

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Now the same applies for base and Super Saiyan 2 form because we don’t see base form Gogeta or either of them at Super Saiyan 2.

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And no I don’t think Veku should play a role in this evaluation just because well…he was a weakling. He was hilarious as I don’t know what, but still not necessary for this blog. Unless of course Goku and Vegeta fused incorrectly and Vegito could just kill him with a nasty look.

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So there you have it, I believe that in an all-out battle to the finish the winner would be Super Gogeta. Now I’m not saying it is impossible for Vegito to win because the main thing would be him being able to last long enough until Gogeta’s power or fusion time ran out.

What do you think who is the superior fusion?

If you liked what you just read and want to see even more Dragonball blogs and theories be sure to follow my blog! Also I’m on Twitter @jccarden and I have a DBZ Facebook Page called Vegeta Is The Best.

Dragonball Z: How Strong Is Piccolo?

by Jeremy Carden

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Piccolo is one of the underdog heroes of the Dragonball franchise. Like many of the characters on the show, the Namekian was overshadowed greatly in power by the Super Saiyans. It is a real shame because before Vegeta came into the picture he was Goku’s archenemy turned rival turned friend.

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It is highly debated just how strong the Namek is towards the end of the Dragonball Z series especially when we are introduced to the Supreme Kai.

After the Frieza Saga, the appearance of power levels or official power readings for characters is pretty much nonexistent in the series. So don’t expect me to list off power levels that read in the 100 millions or anything like that (except for the ones in the Frieza Saga that ARE official).

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What I will do is estimate Piccolo’s power around the time of the final battle with Frieza on Namek just so we have a starting point.

Frieza’s transformation into his second form marks the first time in the series where fans (and the Z-Fighters) were introduced to a character that had a power level over 1,000,000!

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It seemed clear that Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan would be no match whatsoever for the murderous tyrant. After being wished back to life and arriving on Namek, Piccolo fused with one of the last surviving Nameks (aside from Dende) in order to combat the evil of Frieza. The fusion with Nail sent Piccolo’s power through the roof and he was able to fight evenly with Frieza in his 2nd form.

When Frieza began to take the fight seriously, he was able to beat Piccolo into the dirt. It wasn’t until he removed his weighted clothing that Piccolo was able to dominate the tyrant. After Frieza transformed into his 3rd form, Piccolo was completely outclassed in both power AND speed.

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Overall, we can conclude that Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) was well over 1 million. He was able to go toe to toe with Frieza even with his weights on. When he took them off his power and speed went up. If I had to make an assumption, I’d say that without his weights and at his maximum power level…I’d clock Piccolo around 1,400,000.

As a side note, Goku’s base power after healing from the battle with Ginyu was 3 million which was of course above Piccolo. Just keep that in mind when I get to the Trunks Saga.

Now there was a 1 ½ year gap between the time of Namek’s explosion and Goku’s eventual arrival back on Earth from the Planet Yardrat.

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Something else that I’ll mention despite being filler is the Garlic Jr. Saga. Before Garlic Jr. releases the Black Water Mist on the Earth, we see Piccolo in some mountains doing some training so we know what he wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing until Goku came back.

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The threat of Garlic Jr. was soon silenced, but then came the return of Frieza who came to Earth with his father. Despite his training after the battle on Namek, it was clear that Piccolo was no match for the evil space tyrant.

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Trunks arrives and defeats Frieza and his father but then delivers a warning for the Z-Fighters (mainly Goku) about how 2 Androids will arrive to kill them all.

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From there it is non-stop training for the Z-Team…except for when Goku and Piccolo go to earn their driver’s license…

In any case, it was Goku training with Piccolo and Gohan to prepare for the upcoming threat!

3 years pass and the Z-Fighters square off against the Androids that Trunks warned them about (or so they thought)!

Super Saiyan Goku started off knocking #19 around like he was nothing until his heart virus weakened him. Enter Vegeta, who swooped in with his new Super Saiyan powers to finish the fight and then it turned into a chase through the mountains to follow Android #20.

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Piccolo was caught off guard by the old Android and lost some Ki. After receiving a Senzu Bean from Gohan, Piccolo was smacking around #20 like he was nothing.

Krillin who was amazed by this sight was quick to comment that Piccolo might actually be as strong as a Super Saiyan causing Vegeta to give a smug look and say “Right…”

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Regardless of his power, when #18 and #17 were activated by Dr. Gero…Piccolo was defeated as easily as Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta.

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Before we get to his fusion with his “other half” Kami, I think it is important to go back and reevaluate just how powerful Piccolo was after his 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the Android threat.

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Some fans believe Piccolo to be around the power of Super Saiyan Goku on Namek (which was 150 million) while other fans don’t believe that he could raise his power level that significantly without doing a Fusion with another Namek.

Personally, I don’t think it would be THAT unbelievable. Let me break it down:

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When they first began their training, we saw Goku (base form) fighting evenly with Piccolo. It was a pretty impressive sparring match and Gohan was stunned by their battle. After they disappeared, Gohan sensed them and began fighting as well.

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Keep in mind that Goku’s base power on Namek was 3 million which was above Piccolo who I wagered was around 1,400,000. Throw in a Zenkai boost after recovering from his battle with Frieza and the time he spent training on Yardrat and Goku’s power level was higher than 3 million.

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Another topic fans debate over is whether or not Goku actually trained AS a Super Saiyan while preparing for the Android threat. In retrospect, he wouldn’t really have to train as a Super Saiyan. He told Trunks that while on Yardrat, he was learned how to transform at will rather than having to be overcome by anger and rage to go Super Saiyan. Of course, he wouldn’t have full control over the form until after his time with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

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His training partners were a Namek that he was stronger than in base form and his Saiyan/Human offspring that wasn’t as powerful as he was. If Goku turned Super Saiyan boosting his power by 50, he’d completely dominate them with no effort whatsoever.

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I think that against Gohan, Goku remained in base form and trained him along with Piccolo. On the days when Chi-Chi made Gohan study rather than train (remember the deal she made with Goku was to allow Gohan to train BUT still study instead of 3 nonstop years of roughhousing), I feel that Goku and Piccolo were able to do SERIOUS training with no holding back.

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Kind of like how Goten and Gohan were able to do serious Super Saiyan combat training when Gohan wasn’t holding back his powers in order to teach Videl how to fly. I think the same applied to Goku and Piccolo’s training.

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We all know that these two do not hold back in their training and knowing Piccolo I doubt he wanted to fight or train with Goku unless he was at his best! Not to mention if Piccolo needed to work on a weakness or strength he could use his Multi-Form technique to “train himself.”

So, I honestly believe that at some points in their training Goku would go Super Saiyan so Piccolo could spar with a stronger opponent to test and increase the limits of his own powers. I mean the best way to get stronger is to train with someone stronger than you are.

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Going back to Krillin’s statement about Piccolo possibly being as powerful as a Super Saiyan, I think there might be some truth behind that. He was easily able to dominate #20 just like Super Saiyan Vegeta was able to beat down #19. It was said numerous times by #20 that he was FAR superior to the Android 19 model so there is even more proof behind that statement.

Of course, I don’t think that Piccolo could defeat Super Saiyan Vegeta or Goku. I will say that he might be able to give Super Saiyan Trunks a run for his money. Piccolo has far more training than the Saiyan from the future and he doesn’t rely on a weapon for combat. He is smarter than Trunks and I believe if it came down to those two battling it out, I believe Piccolo would win it.

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The way Trunks spoke about the Androids, it was as if he was literally saying that Frieza would be no match for them. You can see the truth in his statement because he talked about how the Androids of his time hunted him down for fun. Trunks had just killed Frieza AND King Cold with ease. It turns out that he was referring to #17 and #18, but the Z-Fighters didn’t know that. I don’t think that Piccolo would be willing to fight these new foes if he wasn’t at least as powerful as Frieza was back on Namek. His maximum power at 100% was 120 million when he fought Super Saiyan Goku.

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One last piece of evidence of Piccolo’s power increase comes from looking at Goku and Gohan’s Time Chamber training. Gohan literally begged his father to not hold back during training because if he did then he would never become a Super Saiyan. When Goku agreed to fight at his maximum Gohan did go Super Saiyan and eventually went from not being able to keep up with Goku even in base form to surpassing him!

I think the same happened when Goku trained with Piccolo (except for Piccolo surpassing Goku) and this helped Piccolo get much more powerful as a result.

With that in mind, I think that Piccolo would be able to defeat the space tyrant after his 3 years of training.

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Alright, now that we have that out of the way it is time to get to the “Nameless Namek!” With the Androids on their way to kill Goku after easily defeating the Z-Fighters, Piccolo journeyed to Kami’s Lookout to fuse with Kami.

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The Guardian of the Earth eventually caved in and allowed Piccolo to merge with him. Piccolo (now known as Kamiccolo, the Original Namek or the Nameless Namek) met the new threat the Kami felt taking shape over the past 3 years down on Earth (without telling anyone…): Cell!

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It was an impressive battle, but even though it seemed like Cell was winning it turned out to be a false front; Kamiccolo was playing possum to learn who and what Cell was along with his intentions!

This was similar to Vegeta willingly allowing #19 to absorb his Ki to confirm that the Androids absorbed their victim’s energy through the palms on their hands!

Kamiccolo said that he’d easily destroy the creature now that he had received the information needed and he was going to until Cell used the Solar Flare to escape.

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On the hunt for this new enemy, Piccolo eventually went toe to toe with Android 17! It was a neck and neck battle where we saw the true power of his fusion with Kami.

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Piccolo went from being knocked out by a punch to the gut from #17 to delivering blow after blow to the Android! Regardless it was clear that power wise these two were dead even, but the only difference was that 17’s energy level and stamina never decreased. The only way to truly win would be for Piccolo to destroy his robotic opponent.

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Actually, Piccolo was going to destroy #17 but thanks to plot…I mean a barrier…the Hellzone Grenade wasn’t able to finish the job.

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When Cell reappeared to absorb the Androids it was clear his power now made Piccolo’s seem insignificant. It came from absorbing countless human beings and increasing his power to a level here he could easily take down anything in his way (except #16).

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Even Piccolo’s most powerful attack (Light Grenade) did nothing against Cell!

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After breaking his neck and blasting away most of his stomach, Cell tossed the Namek into the ocean.

Goku saved Piccolo and Tien by taking them back to the Lookout to recover with some Senzu Beans. After Super Vegeta (Ascended Super Saiyan) botched up the battle with Cell by allowing him to absorb #18, Piccolo thought it best to take matters into his own hands and train inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber himself!

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When he reemerged, his power was enough to stun Future Trunks and made Goku remark about how impressive the boost in his power increase was. Of course, Goku pointed out that even though Piccolo was a lot more powerful than before he was still no match for Perfect Cell.

The last time we see Piccolo in a real battle was when he fought the Cell Jrs. alongside the other Z-Fighters.

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Once again we enter into debatable territory regarding how well Piccolo was holding his own against Cell’s “children.” If you ask me I think it was clear that Piccolo was one of the “leading forces” in that battle aside from the Ascended Super Saiyans Trunks and Vegeta who were having their own trouble with ONE Cell Jr. apiece!

Cell told Gohan that aside from Trunks and Vegeta no one could hold up against his children, which was false because Piccolo was doing just as well as the Super Saiyans!

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Krillin, Yamcha and Tien were obviously outclassed while Goku was still heavily damaged and weak from his battle with Perfect Cell. Tien and Yamcha had to protect him, Krillin was the one that was easily defeated and Piccolo was the “floater” pretty much helping out when needed knocking out many of the Cell Jrs. (who would annoyingly get back up over and over again).

Just a quick comment, the Cell Jrs. were holding back at first because their job was to TORMENT not KILL the Z-Fighters that was why Tien and Yamcha were able to kick a few of them around to protect Goku but were eventually knocked out for good.

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Sadly Krillin was pretty much useless and the Cell Jrs. enjoyed torturing him more than the others.

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Cell eventually told them to start killing the heroes in order to finally fuel Gohan’s rage enough to the point where his hidden powers would rise to the surface. That was when they started going for blood and all of the Z-Fighters (including Piccolo) were finally down until Gohan went Super Saiyan 2.

Now you are probably wondering how Piccolo was able to hold his own despite not being a Super Saiyan. Once again it is time to break things down;

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I believe that after his Time Chamber training, Piccolo was at least around the power of Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta after their first time going in the chamber.

As I mentioned before, we don’t know the power levels of the characters after their battle with Frieza. So for this example, I’ll be using just small numbers and maybe fractions to prove my point.

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Kamiccolo was more powerful than Imperfect Cell (before absorbing 1,000s of humans), even with #17 and stronger than the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. I don’t think that Piccolo was twice the power of a Super Saiyan though.

When Vegeta came out of the Time Chamber, Goku said that he’d have to AT LEAST triple his power to stand a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell which caused Vegeta to laugh. This implies that he at least tripled his power or went above even that.

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Theoretically I think that he tripled the power of his base and Super Saiyan form. However, he took it a step further by achieving the Ascended Super Saiyan form.

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With that being said here is what I think; I’d put Kamiccolo as a 5 while the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans would be a 3. During his time training, I feel that Vegeta was not only able to catch up to Kamicclo and close the gap in their power but he took it a step further by going Ascended Super Saiyan!

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Something else that might help my claim is how Vegeta reacted to Piccolo when he came out of the chamber. While Trunks was stunned at his power increase, Vegeta insulted the Namek saying that he hadn’t changed at all and that all he was doing was wasting time while the real warriors had to wait for him until he came out. On that note, Vegeta smirked as he closed the door behind him saying that Goku had better watch out because he was once again going to claim his spot as the best in the universe.

Now the one thing in this scene that really caught my attention was how Piccolo reacted to Vegeta’s statement; he didn’t say ONE word. This was a huge contrast to the Piccolo we’ve seen in the past who was quick to fly off at an insult especially from Vegeta.

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If you ask me, I feel that the year spent in the Time Chamber was more than just a power-up for Piccolo. I think the time alone training allowed Piccolo to become more “united” with Kami by meditation and once again becoming the one Nameless Namek in both body AND mind.

Kami was more “mature” than Piccolo Jr. and was able to hold his head high even when insulted and this showed itself from Kamiccolo when Vegeta insulted him. If you ask me, Vegeta (like Trunks) could sense Piccolo’s power-up but refused to acknowledge it. Again proving or suggesting that the Namek was once again in the ranks of the Super Saiyans.

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Going along with my above statement, I think that Piccolo at least tripled his power level allowing him to be on the same playing field as the Ascended Super Saiyans.

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Despite going in the Time Chamber AGAIN for a second year separately, Trunks and Vegeta were not able to boost their powers as impressively as the first time so they might have once again surpassed Piccolo but not by that much.

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When Vegeta did exit the Time Chamber the second time, Piccolo (without even turning around having his back turned to Vegeta) commented that he was impressed by Vegeta’s power but it was still not enough to defeat Cell…

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The Saiyan Prince just smirked at the comment!

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Finally, we get to the Majin Buu Saga which takes place 7 years after the events of the Cell Games. Piccolo was now living on Kami’s Lookout teaching Dende more about how to be Earth’s Guardian alongside Mr. Popo. Unlike Gohan, I doubt that Piccolo just sat around doing nothing. I’m sure that like Vegeta he was training in the event of another threat that would put the Earth in peril.

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Here we come to another hot topic of discussion: Was Piccolo REALLY weaker than Supreme Kai?

In the manga and anime, Piccolo says that the difference between himself and Supreme Kai (Shin) was dimensions apart in terms of power. Now I’m going to be honest and say that I do not believe that Shin could defeat Piccolo…depending on the circumstances.

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Keep in mind that Piccolo looked like he crapped his pants (that is if Nameks even need to use the restroom) when he thought that Shin was the Grand Kai. It stands to reason that it was the “Kami in him” that made him hesitate and ponder Shin’s true identity instead of fighting. That only makes sense because being Earth’s guardian and knowing about King Kai and other of the Otherworld deities, he would be the one to make Piccolo hesitant about facing a god of higher ranking than himself.

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Piccolo even said that he wasn’t able to focus his power in order to fight Shin. Now, as I mentioned before in the Cell Saga I’d place Piccolo around the power of the Ascended Super Saiyans. I don’t think that he went without training for 7 years like most of the other Z-Fighters.

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If I were to estimate Piccolo’s power during the Babidi and Majin Buu Sagas, I’d say he would probably be around the strength of the Full Power Super Saiyans (Goku and Gohan). I don’t think he was as powerful as Gohan was when he defeated Cell as a Super Saiyan 2.

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Considering how Shin was scared to death of Dabura (who Goku compared to Perfect Cell), I would put Shin around the power of an Ascended Super Saiyan from the Cell Saga. So the gap between Shin and Piccolo would be there but not as big as you might expect it to be.

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Now something that might blow my theory out of the water is the comment Dabura made to Babidi before attacking the Z-Fighters who thought they were well hidden up on the cliffs outside of Babidi’s spaceship; “7 in all…each of them strong…we cannot use the energy from Supreme Kai or Kibito but 3 of them possess energies that will go a long way towards reviving Majin Buu.”

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Babidi tells him to get rid of the small fry (Piccolo, Krillin and Kibito), keep the Supreme Kai alive so he could deal with him personally and lure the other 3 (Gohan, Goku and Vegeta) into his spaceship.

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In one way, you could interpret Dabura as being able to sense the hidden power (Super Saiyan powers) of the Saiyans despite them being in base form. I doubt he was saying that in base form the 3 Saiyans were more powerful than Piccolo. Come on now, I really don’t think that was the case.

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He was probably saying that out of their group only the Saiyans had the power necessary to bring the revival of Majin Buu much sooner than originally anticipated. I can actually agree with this because Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (who Vegeta pointed out as being a lot stronger when he fought Cell) had his power stolen and his Ki alone was enough to bring Buu’s ball to nearly 50% full! Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan was and during their battle in a short period of time the power lost by Super Saiyan 2 Goku brought the ball to 100%. I don’t think Piccolo would be able to do the same with his power so I can see why Dabura wouldn’t think much of the Namek’s power when compared to the Saiyans.

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Aside from being turned to stone by Dabura, he easily killed (or so he thought) Babidi and then helped teach Goten and Trunks the Fusion Technique.

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His “last stand” so to speak was after Gotenks’ fusion time split and he wanted to fight to the end with Super Buu. This caused Trunks to say “doing the best you can” would not be enough because even as a fused Super Saiyan 3 they still couldn’t defeat the monster!

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That was pretty much the last “battle” Piccolo attempted to engage in for the series. He was absorbed by Super Buu, killed when Kid Buu blew up the Earth and revived by the Dragonballs of Namek before enjoying 10 years of peace before the end of the series.

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I don’t count the “Piccolo” that we see in Buu’s mind fighting against Goku and Vegeta. Just like Gotenks and Gohan, he was just a thought form created by Buu’s mind and not the actual Piccolo.

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Piccolo does appear in the events of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return along with Battle of Gods…where he was easily dispatched by Bills with a pair of chopsticks!

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Piccolo passed on fighting in the 28th World Tournament saying that “He was too old to keep up with Goku and the others.” Despite the fact that he was 31 (32 physically if you count his year in the Time Chamber) which made him only 4 years older than Gohan!

So, he might have done some unseen training between the fight with Kid Buu to Goku’s fight with Uub. However, we don’t see him fighting so I can’t really pinpoint where his power would be. It seems clear that even if he trained it was still no match for the Saiyans given how willingly he stepped down in favor of fighting in the tournament.

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The same can be applied to Dragonball GT, another 10 year gap between DBZ and GT where peace reigns over the Earth. Again, we don’t see Piccolo fighting just appearing after sensing the battle between Gohan and Baby Goten. Baby had taken over Gohan and with one Kamehameha Wave it seemed like he had killed Piccolo.

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He appears to save the Earth (and the universe) from the destructive force of the Blackstar Dragonballs by dying and going to Otherworld.

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When the threat of Super 17 appeared, Piccolo once again stepped up and this time it was to help Goku escape from Hell. In order to help save the Earth, Piccolo remained trapped in Hell so that Goku could protect everyone from the deadly Android. During his time there, it was like he had become the “caretaker” of Hell like Pikkon was in DBZ.

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Goku promised that someday he would get out of Hell and we are brought 100 years into the future where the series ends with Goku Jr. fighting Vegeta Jr. It is unknown if Goku kept his promise and got Piccolo out of Hell or not. One thing is for sure, if Piccolo was left in Hell there is no doubt his power increased considerably during his time there in a dimension full of villains from his past!

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Overall, I’d say Piccolo would possibly be around the power of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan during the Cell Games had he kept up his training after the battle with Kid Buu.

What do you think?

If you liked what you just read and want to see even more Dragonball blogs and theories be sure to follow my blog! Also I’m on Twitter @jccarden and I have a DBZ Facebook Page called Vegeta Is The Best.

Which form of Majin Buu is the strongest?

by Jeremy Carden

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This is one debate that is still going on between Dragonball fans. One has to wonder if this debate is discussed more than the Goku vs. Superman issue.

In any case, we all know that there are multiple forms of Majin Buu with Kid Buu being the original form until he started absorbing other beings into his body or when he split into a Good and Evil Buu.

The point of this blog is to go over my personal ranking of the Majin Buus from strongest to weakest.

I’ll be using facts, dialogue, fights and evidence from both the anime AND manga. This will help give you all an understanding of how and why I rank the Majin Buus in the order that I do from strongest to weakest.

Also understand that despite filler not being considered canon, I will use it for my discussion.

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For example, Super Saiyan 3 Goku’s “fight” with Super Buu Gotenks/Piccolo absorbed (Buutenks) was filler.

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So was Goku and Vegeta’s fight with Super Buu Gohan Absorbed (Buuhan).

Here are the Buus up for discussion:

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Kid Buu

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Buff Buu-Kid Buu after absorbing South Supreme Kai

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Fat Buu-Buff Buu after absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai/Daikaioh

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Good/Mr. Buu-The Good Buu after splitting from his evil side

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Evil Buu-the Evil Buu after splitting from his good side

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Super Buu-the resulting Buu after Evil Buu eats Good Buu

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Super Buu-Gotenks/Piccolo absorbed or “Buutenks”

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Super Buu-Piccolo/Goten/Trunks absorbed or “Buuccolo”

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Super Buu-Gohan/Goten/Trunks/Piccolo absorbed or “Buuhan”

Now here is how I rank them from strongest to weakest:

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1. Buuhan

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2. Buutenks

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3. Buff Buu

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4. Buuccolo

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5. Super Buu

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6. Fat Buu

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7. Kid Buu

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8. Evil Buu

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9. Good Buu

These are the topics that I will be going over to support my theories:

  • The power of the individual Buus including things like speed, durability, power and danger level
  • The power of the beings that he absorbed
  • Comparing the split between Good and Evil Buu to that of the split of the Original Namek
  • Comparing Fat Buu’s “endless power” to Gohan’s power drop after the Cell Games

Overall, I’m going to throw everything I have at this in order to prove why thoughts on this so I hope you appreciate the hard work but also have patience because I know this is a long blog but it is covering some solid information in order to help you understand what I’m talking about.

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Another thing that I do want to make note of is that I will not be using Uub or Majuub in my rankings because I don’t think it would be fair because he is Majin Buu reincarnated and before fusing with Good Buu he was 100% human. I will however make reference to him a couple of times though.

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And no I will not be including the Majin Buus from the video games where he absorbs Frieza, Cell, Vegeta or Yamcha/Tien!

So, to get things started let’s take a look at what Majin Buu is. He is a creation by the evil wizard Bibidi who made Buu as a weapon of destruction in his conquest to rule the galaxy.

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As Kid Buu laid waste to planet after planet in an endless domino effect of destruction there was little to no opposition that could stop him.

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Even when the Supreme Kais came to fight none of them were able to defeat Buu.

Later on, Shin or Supreme Kai or Eastern Supreme Kai (whatever you want to call him) told Vegeta that back in his time all of the Supreme Kais were defeated by Buu and would have been able to destroy Frieza with a single blow

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In the anime, he says that the Supreme Kais were all 1,000 times more powerful than Frieza

Just a couple of comments about that statement:

Due to Supreme Kai’s lack of knowledge about the Super Saiyans, I think it is safe to say that he also did not know about Frieza’s multiple forms.

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With that in mind I feel that he was comparing his former Kai associates to Frieza 1st form which was clocked at 530,000.

By doing math based on his statement 530,000 times 1,000 would equal 530,000,000.

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That number is over triple Frieza’s 100% power which was 120,000,000 but again this is all assumption based on Shin’s comment to Vegeta.

In any case, the Kais themselves were powerful but not powerful enough to defeat Kid Buu who effortlessly took them all down.

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Save for South Kai and Grand Supreme Kai but I will get to my thoughts on their individual powers below.

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Majin Buu can regenerate from molecules as Piccolo mentioned when Super Buu reformed after being blasted by the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack followed by Piccolo and Super Saiyan Gotenks blasting the remaining bits of Buu to dust and the smoke from that reformed into Super Buu once again.

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He can mold his body into different shapes and forms

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A “volleyball” as seen when he uses the Mystic Ball Attack

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Like the Nameks can extend and retract his limbs for long range combat

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Fat Buu entraps people in his stomach to suffocate them by expanding his body

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Super Buu has been shown to liquefy himself and “force feed” his enemy until their bodies explode into pieces

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Something else worthy of note is his ability to break through dimension walls however it seems that he is only capable of doing this if he is EXTREMELY angry

Buu has a LONG list of powers that make him a very dangerous and unpredictable foe

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His most famous power seems to be the Candy Beam which changes his opponents or anything that it hits into the food item of his choice; mostly candy or desserts

The only forms of Buu not shown to have this ability is Buff, Kid and Evil Buu. It is understood that Buutenks could use the technique as well but of course I’m sure he wouldn’t change his own competition (Mystic Gohan) into candy.

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Buu’s speed varies depending on what form he is in. It seems safe to say that Buuhan is the fastest Majin Buu with the only being seen to be faster than him being Vegito.

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Kid Buu is arguably the fastest but only if you throw the Instant Transmission or Instantaneous Movement into the equation but remember that is a technique not his own natural speed

I mean on multiple occasions Buu is seen outmaneuvering the Z-Fighters;

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Fat Buu appeared in front of the fleeing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who told Shin that he was pretty confident about his speed

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Super Buu after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo was easily able to swat around Mystic Gohan

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Vegeta was no match for Kid Buu’s speed regardless of what form he was in whether it was base or Super Saiyan 2

Another thing to consider is that Majin Buu has an innate ability to mimic techniques used against him in battle.

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This was seen when Fat Buu used a Kamehameha Wave on Super Saiyan 3 Goku after Goku used it against him to blow a hole in his chest

Kid Buu did the same just by seeing Kibito Kai using the Instantaneous Movement to escape the exploding Earth

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During Uub’s fight with Goku at the end of DBZ, Vegeta mentions that the kid is learning how to fight while he’s fighting

Alright, so with all of these abilities taken into account let’s break it down into individual categories: stamina and durability

Stamina

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This has to be my favorite thing to discuss concerning Majin Buu because like the Energizer Bunny, this guy just keeps going and going and going…

There are only a few times when I can remember Majin Buu actually being tired

When Good Buu tries to hit Evil Buu with a melee barrage but not one punch lands he is seen catching his breath before being kicked away by Evil Buu

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One could argue that it was because Buu had just lost a lot of power in the fission with Evil Buu taking more of his power and abilities leaving the Good Buu in a weakened state

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Super Buu wasn’t tired but was seen reeling after a head butt from Gotenks

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Buuhan was extremely tired from his fight with Vegito even to the point of not being able to fully regenerate but I’ll get to that once I discuss his durability

Kid Buu’s only time showing to be even remotely exhausted was when he delivered a fierce barrage of attacks to Good Buu’s stomach and said “Whew…” before wiping his forehead.

Let’s take a moment and discuss Kid Buu’s stamina for a second because I feel like he went through the most:

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After reverting from Super to Buff to Kid Buu, he shots a Ki blast strong enough to destroy Earth but it is deflected by Vegeta so he uses the Planet Burst which has enough power to destroy Earth TEN TIMES!!!

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He then destroys countless planets one after the other before going to Grand Kai’s Planet and easily took out the fighters there including Pikkon, Olibu, Krillin and all the others before being “called” to Supreme Kai’s Planet to fight against Goku and Vegeta

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He is asleep before Goku powers up at Super Saiyan 2 to fight then goes Super Saiyan 3 before passing out due to exhaustion

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Buu then takes out base form Vegeta before he engages in battle with SS3 Goku once again

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After taking down Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta with ease…

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In comes Mr. Satan!

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Followed by a bout with the Good Buu

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Then ANOTHER round with base form Vegeta

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And finally we see Kid Buu vs. the Spirit Bomb!

He even manages to push back the bomb on a weakened Goku something no other villain has been able to do!

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Until he finally meets his end when Goku’s power is restored and he goes Super Saiyan to finish the fight.

BUT WAIT!!!!

How did Kid Buu send back the Spirit Bomb although he doesn’t have a pure heart?

Just like the Super Saiyan transformation, the word “pure” could mean A LOT of things. Kid Buu does have a GOOD pure heart like Goku. Kid Buu had a pure EVIL heart!

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King Kai nor any other being in Dragonball for that matter makes a good distinction of pure in terms of good and evil. I mean Krillin handled the bomb and although he isn’t evil, Krillin isn’t pure either. He lusts but not Roshi-level lust for women due to his desire for a girlfriend. I mean do you remember his girlfriend (filler) Marron?

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Also remember the bomb was created by Krillin it was handed to Krillin by Goku and then pure hearted Gohan was able to bounce it back at the off guard Vegeta

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Keep in mind that in Super Android 13, Goku turned Super Saiyan but it was only after the bomb was created so it could explain why Goku’s body absorbed it because the bomb was fading away and instead of letting that energy escape, Goku opted to use it to grant him the energy to finish the killer robot

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Frieza is more or less 100% evil like Kid Buu but he was straining to push it back because he was off guard but not strong enough to push it back like Kid Buu

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So, it could be a matter of power vs. pure beings. With that in mind it could just be that Kid Buu had more energy than the exhausted Goku and was able to push back the Spirit Bomb until Goku is restored to full power once again

Of course in the manga, after regenerating from Earth’s explosion he goes immediately to where Goku and Vegeta are to battle

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Not only that, the battles that took place were Kid Buu vs. SS3 Goku, then SS2 Vegeta, a brief comical fight with Hercule and his last “serious” bout was against Good Buu followed by Vegeta stalling him for Goku to launch the Spirit Bomb

In any case, Kid Buu is pretty much all but unstoppable because as Goku pointed out fighting against him was like fighting a hamster on a wheel because no matter how much Ki he puts out he still doesn’t get anywhere.

But then again the same can be said for anyone fighting against Buu because he is pretty much all but unstoppable.

Durability

This is another interesting topic because it is nearly impossible to generate an attack powerful enough to completely destroy Majin Buu so not even a trace, cell or atom of him remained.

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The only attack that was able to do so was the Super Spirit Bomb.

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I will say that I do not believe Buu to be as durable as Cell.

Why?

Take a look at Krillin’s Destructo Disk for example;

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After throwing it at Perfect Cell, the attack bounced off his neck and then crumbled to pieces with Cell just standing there in the process.

When using the attack on Kid Buu, it was able to cut him in half.

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Even when Goku returned to Earth, he launched a surprise disk that cut Buutenks in half as well.

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So he isn’t completely indestructible but thanks to regeneration and an almost limitless stamina he is all but unbeatable.

Perfect Game

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Final Kamehameha

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Though as seen after suffering from Super Vegito’s Perfect Game and Final Kamehameha attacks, Buu’s regeneration does have limits and if he is blasted too much the process sometimes does an incomplete regeneration and Buu has to put strain on himself (similar to Nail on Namek) to make himself whole again.

The only fighters shown to overpower or at least hold their own against Buu was Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Vegito and arguably South Kai during his brawl with Kid Buu and Grand Supreme Kai against Buff Buu.

Danger Level

Kid Buu MIGHT win in terms of which Buu is the most dangerous and I agree due to him being 100% evil, a killing machine and basically doing what he was created for; being a weapon of galactic destruction

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Heck he even tried to kill his creator once!

The only Buu I’d challenge Kid Buu with in this category is Buuhan but only due to him being far more powerful not to mention smarter (thanks to Piccolo in his head). True he isn’t as unpredictable because Kid Buu will either toy with you or simply kill you along with the planet you are on.

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However, Super Buu can break through dimensions when pissed off and while Kid Buu does have a hyper scream I don’t know if he can do that with his Kiai. It might have to do more with power and anger than just anger. Super Buu was much weaker than Buuhan and he was only able to open up ONE dimensional wall to exit the Time Chamber while Buuhan opened up MANY gateways if you wanna look at it that way. Now if it is about power then Kid Buu would fall short.

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks mimicked the ability but remember Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo tried multiple times but it wasn’t enough but when he went Super Saiyan 3 did it everything just fell into place and BOOM they escaped so indeed power might play a factor.

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Buuhan was about to rip apart the ENTIRE universe if Vegito wasn’t able to punch his lights out.

Kid Buu could destroy the universe given time and thanks to Instant Transmission it would be one planet blowing up after the next.

However, I might have to lean toward Super Buu or Buuhan in this category due to him breaking down dimensional walls all at once!

Now let’s take a look at the opponents who Buu squared off against and yes I will be including filler anime fights

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1. Fat Buu vs. Dabura

Dabura mocked Buu for his behavior and he paid for it! Buu simply gouged his eyes and kicked him into a mountain. It stunned Gohan and Shin while Babidi screamed with glee at how powerful his “pet Majin” was. For the first time we see Goku stunned at the sudden show of Ki from Buu while he and Vegeta were far off in their battle.

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2. Fat Buu vs. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

While trying to escape, Buu swatted Gohan into the ground while beating down the Supreme Kai and when Gohan got back up he kicked Buu only for the point of impact to pop back out of Buu’s head like nothing happened. Kind of like a memory foam mattress and while Gohan rushed Buu he easily blasted Gohan into the air. But due to Shin’s interference he was able to save Gohan’s life.

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3. Fat Buu vs. Supreme Kai

Shin threw everything he had whether it was the huge Ki blast seen in the picture or an eye Kiai blast it was clear that he was not match for the Majin who was about to eat him until…

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4. Fat Buu vs. Dabura (Round 2)

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Dabura threw a spear that Buu easily pulled out of his stomach and regenerated from. The Demon King still damaged from Buu’s earlier attack threw a barrage of melee and then Ki blasts that did nothing to Majin Buu whole then dodged his Stone Spit and countered with his Candy beam turning him into a giant cookie ending Dabura’s life

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5. Fat Buu vs. Majin Vegeta

The 100% Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta (thanks to Goku’s Senzu Bean) put up a good fight but was unable to keep up with Buu’s constant regeneration and even with the Final Explosion blowing him to bits…

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Buu reformed!

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6. Fat Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku

The debut of the Super Saiyan 3 form was the first to really show Majin Buu a REAL challenge. However, the more Ki Goku put out fighting, it seemed that Buu’s power continued to increase as well. Indeed showing that we never really see the Fat Buu’s FULL power due to captivity in his ball capping his power and this “exercise” helped him tap into it again

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7. Fat Buu vs. base Gotenks

The cocky Fused Gotenks was easily defeated by Fat Buu and had to go back to the Lookout with a bruised body and ego after going on about how he was going to bring back Buu dead!

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8. Good Buu vs. Evil Buu

If you ask me I think Evil Buu took over 50% of the power after splitting from Good Buu given how EASILY he was able to defeat his “better” half. I’d estimate at least 60%-75% of the power was given to him and after using his trademark move, Evil Buu blew back the Candy Ray to turn Good Buu into chocolate (talk about karma!)

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9. Super Buu vs. base Gotenks

This fight was mostly just for show thanks to Trunks’ plan of putting on a show and then surprising Buu with his Super Saiyan forms. Even after his first melee brawl he realized that Super Buu was more powerful than he thought

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10. Super Buu vs. Super Saiyan Gotenks

After kicking it up a notch showing that he could go Super Saiyan after fusing, Gotenk was still no match for Buu’s power and speed but due to his multiple and wacky attacks he managed to keep Buu at bay

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11. Super Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

This was a great fight showing that Gotenks proved the old saying “Anything you can do I can do better!” Buu was irritating Gotenks but whatever the Majin threw at him, Gotenks would throw right back! Mystic Ball from Buu turned into the Super Buu-Buu Volleyball attack from Gotenks! When he was finally about to finish the job…his Super Saiyan 3 power was gone!

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12. Super Buu vs. base Gotenks

Enter “normal” Gotenks trying to stall Super Buu but to no avail. When your own Super Ghost question your orders you know you are screwed…

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13. Super Buu vs. Mystic Gohan

Mystic Gohan came on the scene and simply dominated Super Buu, really there isn’t much to say here except why Gohan didn’t use any Ki attacks to simply kill Buu…

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14. Buutenks vs. Mystic Gohan

Which is something he would come to regret once he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo easily beating Gohan. If you ask me I think the anime’s take on this fight was more accurate than the manga. In the manga, Buu dominated Gohan the ENTIRE fight but in the anime, it was shown that the two were more or less even but only when Buu started taunting him (thanks to Piccolo) was he able to chip away at Gohan’s confidence causing the mighty hero to fight sloppy

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15. Buutenks vs. Tien

Kudos to Tien for saving Dende’s life with his Tri-Beam to deflect Buu’s blast but it was to no avail when he aimed for Buu to no damage at all but that’s understandable this guy was beating Mystic Gohan to a pulp!

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After Goku returns on the scene, he is easily knocked out with a swift kick from Buu’s lower half. At least Goku DID consider to fuse with him later on but due to being out cold that was out of the question

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16. Buutenks vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku

This was more about Goku stalling than actually fighting similar to his ight with Fat Buu so Trunks could get the Dragon Radar, he was waiting for Gohan to find the Potara Earring. This proved how Buu outclassed the Super Saiyan 3 in power AND speed with Goku not being able to land a punch. He landed a Kamehameha Volley (one blast to the chest) only because Buu was off guard blasting at Gohan

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17. Buuhan vs. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta

I love watching this fight but if one Super Saiyan 3 couldn’t handle Buutenks then two Super Saiyans wouldn’t have a prayer against the much more powerful Buuhan

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18. Buuhan vs. base Vegito

Buuhan couldn’t inflict any damage on Vegito even after many punches and energy blasts. It seemed clear that Vegito could have defeated Buuhan without even going Super Saiyan (as Old Kai said in the beginning)

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19. Buuhan vs. Super Saiyan Vegito or as most people call him “Super Vegito”

If base form Vegito could finish the job, then the 50 times more powerful Super Vegito could handle it as well. Beating Buu to the point that even his regeneration powers were starting to wear thin

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20. Super Buu vs. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta

Its true that the 2 Saiyans “beat” the first Super Buu but it was just a mind puppet I guess you could say but really they were in Buu’s head so they couldn’t really defeat him

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21. Kid Buu vs. the fighters on Grand Kai’s Planet

Buu easily defeated all of the other fighters…um yeah that’s about it

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22. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 2 Goku

A very good fight with Goku even blowing Buu to bits at one point…only for him to regenerate. Filler only but still worth watching showing Goku could hold his own!

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23. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku

The only fight that shows Buu being pushed back instead of doing all of the pushing…until Goku collapsed from exhaustion

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24. Kid Buu vs. base Vegeta

After his rival passes out, Vegeta takes the stage! But why he decided to fight in base form is over my head. He just saw Super Saiyan 3 Goku pass out why wouldn’t he go Super Saiyan 2 to fight?

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25. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Round 2)

This fight was good but the highlight is Vegeta finally realizing Goku is #1. And if not for his toying around before, Goku could have ended this fight instead of stalling for Vegeta to have a shot at winning

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26. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (Round 2)

Really something to see due to how “even” Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Buu were but how easily Vegeta got beaten but you can’t keep a good Saiyan down because Vegeta delivers some of his best pride dialogue in this battle! All seemed lost until the greatest hero ever stepped up to help out!!

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27. Kid Buu vs. Hercule

That’s right Mr. Satan!!!! Who holds Buu off due to Good Buu torturing Kid Buu’s head. But he actually dodges a couple of Buu’s attacks that even manages to impress Goku!

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28. Kid Buu vs. Good Buu

Honestly, the only reason Good Buu could hold his own was due to his regeneration abilities and the fact that he knew just about all of the same moves as Kid Buu but as the battle went on we see for the first time Majin Buu (in any form) run out of energy!

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29. Kid Buu vs. base Vegeta (Round 3)

After being wished back, I can see why Vegeta wouldn’t be as durable as he was before while dead and his power wasn’t quite back yet so I guess I can see why he didn’t transform for this fight but he managed to stay alive in order for the Spirit Bomb to be complete!

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30. Kid Buu vs. base/Super Saiyan Goku using the Spirit Bomb

Goku was exhausted and after some straining, Buu managed to throw back the blue ball until Goku’s Ki was restored and was able to finish the job!

Now let’s take a look at the strength of the people he absorbed:

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South Kai as Shin pointed out is one of the Supreme Kais who could kill Frieza with one blow. Considering that he was the strongest of the 4 Supreme Kais of his time with the Grand Supreme Kai seemingly the only person in the Kai or guardianship position that could exceed his power, he was certainly not a fighter to be taken lightly.

If you ask me, I feel that South Kai is AT LEAST in the power level range of a Super Saiyan 2. The reason I say this is because as I mentioned before he was able to hold his own against Kid Buu in a melee brawl. I mean the only one shown to do that against Kid Buu was Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Heck, South Kai even managed to rip off one of his arms!

I estimate Supreme Kai/South Kai/Shin to be around the power of the Ascended Super Saiyans in the Cell Saga like Super Vegeta so I’d imagine South Kai to be in the range of Super Saiyan 2 or above but not quite at Super Saiyan 3. I think he’s strong but not THAT strong.

The reason I don’t believe him to be that powerful is because one kick from Buu pretty much jacked up his face as you’ll see in another picture from their battle. Goku was bleeding but it took A LOT from Kid Buu to make that happen to the Super Saiyan 3.

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Grand Supreme Kai being the leader is the strongest and with South Kai by my estimation being near or above a Super Saiyan 2, this guy has to be strong! Is he at Super Saiyan 3 power?

Not sure…

But in any case he sure has some interesting techniques due to slicing up Buff Buu into pieces with a mouth blast! I’m sure he must use that on his food…

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Piccolo or Kamiccolo is a fighter who I don’t wager to be as powerful as Gohan was against Cell. After his trip into the Time Chamber, I feel that he had the power to rival that of Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta after their first trip into the Chamber. He didn’t lounge around during the 7 years in between the Cell and Buu Sagas as Gohan did but I don’t think he spent ALL of his time training like Vegeta. It seems that most of his time was spent on the Lookout with Dende and Popo most likely just teaching Dende how to be a good guardian.

That being said, he probably increased his power but not to the point where he was double the power of his Cell Saga persona.

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Gotenks as a Super Saiyan 3 is hands down one of the most powerful fighters in the Dragonball universe. His strength is above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and it could be argued that he did have the power to kill Super Buu but due to Buu’s endurance, Gotenks’ cockiness preventing him from finishing the job and the time limit on both his Super Saiyan 3 power and fusion time running out kept him from victory.

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Goten and Trunks are more or less even and I think in base form they’d be around the power of Frieza’s 1st form of 530,000 and as Super Saiyans that would put them over 26,000,000 but again that is just an estimate and I’ll get into more detail in another blog.

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Mystic Gohan is the strongest of any of the people that Buu had ever absorbed. His power was greater than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or Goku. He was the only fighter capable of going toe to toe with Super Buu.

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Absorption

The purpose of Absorption: This is just a point I’d like to make regarding the power of Kid Buu.

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Why does Majin Buu in any of his forms absorb another being into his body?

Essentially it is to add more power to his already impressive power level.

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If you ask me that is the overall purpose of it.

I believe that the one exception would be Piccolo. True he was absorbed at the same time as Gotenks who was obviously absorbed just for his power which Buu knew would only last for 30 minutes in order to defeat Mystic Gohan.

Piccolo was more or less an extra bonus because think of it this way, if he had just absorbed Gotenks, Buu would of course be extremely powerful but he wouldn’t really know what to do with the power.

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Super Buu on his own was a bit more mindful than Fat Buu but not the brightest fighter as seen when Gotenks used the Super Ghost to fool him into thinking a piece of candy was on the floor of the Time Chamber to have him drop his guard and get blown up.

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But with Piccolo, he’d be able to outsmart his opponent using not just power but psychological warfare which he used well against Gohan to lower his confidence slowing taking away his power in the sense that he wouldn’t be able to fight at his maximum because his emotions would cloud his judgement.

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I mean the reason I think Buff Buu is STRONGER than Kid Buu is because Buu would not have absorbed him in the first place unless he felt that South Kai was a being worth absorbing.

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West and North Kai didn’t do much against Buu and when he faced South Kai it was shown to be his first real challenge, someone who Buu couldn’t just swat away like he did the other 2 Kais or the inhabitants of the numerous planets he destroyed.

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If anything, Buff Buu is like Buff Cell or Ultra Super Saiyan in that it is just raw power.

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I mean when he faced Grand Supreme Kai it seemed like he finally met his match because of one mouth blast chopped Buu into pieces and then made him explode.

He probably figured that of course this Kai was stronger than South Kai and wanted to add the extra power to his being but did not know the power of Grand Kai wouldn’t be the ONLY thing he’d absorb.

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It seemed that Grand Kai’s goodness was more powerful than Buu’s evil. Explaining why he became the fat and jolly Buu rather than the killing machine Kid Buu or the tank that was Ultra/Buff Buu.

I don’t think South Kai’s goodness was stronger than Kid Buu’s evil I mean we don’t see much of Buff Buu but I doubt he was anywhere near as gentle as Fat Buu.

The reason I am including this is because a lot of people think that Kid Buu is the strongest.

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To all of the people who say that answer this question for me: if Kid Buu (who Super Saiyan 3 Goku said he could defeat but only if he could emit 100% of his Ki at once to kill him) is stronger than Buuhan then why didn’t Goku just go Super Saiyan 3 and defeat him in the Fusion Saga?

The answer; BECAUSE HE COULDN’T!!!!

Remember Goku was so desperate for extra power when Buuhan was going to allow him til the count of 5 to find someone to fuse with that he was about to throw the Potara Earring to HERCULE!!!

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Even before he threw it he contemplated the pros and cons:

1. Mr. Satan’s lack of Ki knowledge could do more harm than good

2. He DOES know basic martial arts

3. Fusing with him could actually LOWER Goku’s power rather than increase it!

If not for him sensing Vegeta’s Ki, that fusion would have happened

Remember against Kid Buu, he and Vegeta both agreed that they did not want to use the Potara again due to it being permanent.

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Goku says that since Buu isn’t a fused being anymore that it wouldn’t be fair and he opted to fight solo; this happened in both the anime and manga

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Instead of using the Fusion Dance as Old Kai predicted they did the next best technique; Rock, Paper, Scissors!!

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Going off another piece of dialogue that makes fans speculate that Goku could not defeat Super Buu (even before absorbing the Z-Fighters) due to him saying that if they escaped Buu’s head they way that they were now (being in their base forms and the highest Goku could go is Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta could go Super Saiyan 2) and he said Fusion was their only option to survive when getting to the outside.

Makes sense to me due to how strong Gotenks and Gohan are and they were the only ones who could smack around Super Buu like he was nothing.

Of course how can I talk about this subject without going into detail about Super Saiyan 3?

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Goku said that if he really tried he could have defeated Majin Buu or more specifically the FAT Majin Buu but he wanted Goten, Gohan and Trunks to have a shot at saving the world because he wouldn’t be around forever.

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However in the manga he sounds a lot less confident in his abilities to defeat the Fat Majin Buu when compared to the anime where he says “probably” but even so in the manga he wasn’t so sure

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Later on he tells Vegeta that if he fought Kid Buu at 100% from the start he could have defeated him not to mention he needed a moment to collect the Ki needed to kill him but he couldn’t do that with all of the high paced fighting that he was doing with Kid Buu

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Not to mention the Super Saiyan 3 confirmed that if Vegito was “here” the battle would be over in no time

This is one reason why I say that Kid Buu might actually be weaker than the Fat Majin Buu (not the Good Buu I mean the Buu we see after absorbing Grand Supreme Kai and the first Buu we see in the series after his ball is opened).

Here is one topic that needs to be discussed: Potara Earrings vs. Fusion Dance

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A common misconception is due to the Old Kai’s double-talk. When Goku says that he’ll do a Fusion with Gohan and then beat Buu, Old Kai is quick to scold him. He says that Buu isn’t just going to wait around while the two practice the moves and align their power levels and he made a good point.

I’m sure at that point Buu knew that Gotenks’ fusion wasn’t going to last much longer and the last thing he needed was an even more powerful fused being going up against him when he was about to lose his main source of power!

In any case here is what the manga says about this moment:

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If you ask me I think that Old Kai was referring from the pros and cons of the Potara Earrings vs. the Fusion Dance. In that case I could see why the earrings are “stronger” than the dance.

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When it comes to the earrings all the users have to do is place one on the opposing earring as their fusion partner and BOOM there is an instant fusion.

Potara is better than that ridiculous dance!!!

Potara is better than that ridiculous dance!!!

From what I can tell there are only 2 drawbacks;

1. The Fusion is permanent

2. If one or both of the people fusing is in a powered up state (like Super Saiyan for example) when the merger takes place there will be a considerable amount of strain placed on the fused body and since most beings can not stay in their powered up forms forever it will shorten their life force or lifetime.

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Now let’s look at the Fusion Dance in terms of cons;

1. One false move in the “dance” execution and the Fusion will fail resulting in either a fat or old and frail being

2. It takes a lot of practice and a good memory to remember the moves correctly

3. Both people have to emit the same Ki levels for the dance to work

4. Both people have to be of similar size

5. Depending on the power of the fused being it could actually do more harm than good with some fused beings being so powerful that it actually shortens the amount of time they can stayed fused; Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta only lasts 1/3 or 10 minutes of the total 30 minutes of Fusion

6. After a fusion (failed or successful) the two are unable to fuse for a full hour which isn’t good especially if you are fighting an extremely tough opponent

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So, when you look at it that way, the Potara Earrings ARE stronger than the Fusion Dance. However, that doesn’t mean the resulting being is more powerful than the Fusion Dance.

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Again, this is up to fan speculation because this is what it boils down to if you are trying to compare the power of Super Saiyan Gogeta and Vegito.

Here is where I get to the part of the blog where I confirm two things that I actually kind of doubt myself about;

1. Whether Buff Buu IS more powerful than Buuccolo

2. If Fat Buu IS more powerful than Kid Buu

Here is how I look at it when it comes to Buff Buu based on the power of South Kai. As I mentioned before, I think he is near or above the Super Saiyan 2 level. Piccolo is not as strong as a Super Saiyan 2 but still pretty powerful. Don’t forget that Buuccolo also has the power of Goten and Trunks. HOWEVER, in their people pods the two hybrids are in their base forms so the question remains as to whether or not Super Buu could access their Super Saiyan power. I know Piccolo is more powerful than them regardless of their form.

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In any case, if Buuccolo is less powerful than Buff Buu then it doesn’t really matter because he is indeed a lot smarter. Buff Buu is like a rhino or tank just charging into his opponents with his huge body.

In a battle, I think that Buuccolo COULD win due to having brains and power.

I did list Super Buu to be more powerful than Kid Buu regardless of whether he is fused with anyone or not but also notice that Buff Buu is above him because Goku and Vegeta mentioned that he was increasing in both body and power instead of decreasing after ripping out Good Buu’s pod.

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Though when he reverts to Kid Buu they mention he got “manageable” in that they could beat him but they were not prepared for his wild and berserk nature.

In any case, in terms of raw power I think that Buff Buu exceeds Buuccolo but in terms of who would win a fight I think it would be Buuccolo if he can come up with strategy and technique to overcome the raging beast

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Now here is where I try to confirm why I feel that the Fat Majin Buu if more powerful than Kid Buu;

For one as I mentioned before, the purpose of absorption is to increase the already incredible power of a being by incorporating the power of another.

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In both the anime and manga, it is suggested that by absorbing South and Grand Supreme Kai, Majin Buu’s power was dropped due to the Kai’s good influcence over him. Remember Kid Buu was 100% evil but by absorbing the Kais he not only took their power but also some of their personality traits and along with that was goodness. As I mentioned before, South Kai’s goodness wasn’t enough to overpower Buu’s evil but when Grand Supreme Kai was absorbed so was his goodness and that seemed enough to overcome Buu’s wild nature.

If you ask me I don’t think Buu’s power dropped where the Kais “took away” his power. I think it was just buried inside if that makes sense.

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For comparison let’s look at Gohan: Remember it was said that the Fat Buu’s power just kept on increasing and it was like a bottomless well that was never ending.

It might sound wrong but actually it makes A LOT of sense.

He spent centuries in his ball so it makes sense that his power became “contained.”

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From his brief fight with Dabura to his fight with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, it was said that the more powerful his opponent, the more Buu’s power increased.

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Remember that Gohan reached his peak during the Cell Games when he finally delivered the final blow to the Android.

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Though for 7 years, he spent his time going to school and studying like his mother wanted and actually dropped his power because when he went Super Saiyan 2 against Kibito, Vegeta said that he was a lot more powerful as a kid.

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However, he still had a lot of power contained and it had to be released thanks to the efforts of Old Kai. I mean Goku and  Vegeta were even at Super Saiyan 2 but more powerful than Gohan but after his power up, Mystic Gohan had the power to be stronger than Vegeta or even a Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Gotenks.

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It is like an athelthe who was at his peak but stopped training and working out for a long time, their strength drops. The same with Majin Buu being in that ball so long or Gohan sitting at his desk studying so long, his power was still there but it is “hidden” once again.

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Of course the best way to illustrate my point is to compare the fights between the dead Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Fat Buu against the alive Goku at Super Saiyan 3 fighting Kid Buu BUT while in the Other World.

I think this level of Super Saiyan should be a clear indicator of how strong Buu is.

The real question is: Is Goku stronger as a Super Saiyan 3 while dead?

I know that he said a living body chugs more energy than a dead one and in Other World, Super Saiyan 3 was “easy.”

Against Fat Buu, he didn’t take much if any damage at least on the outside of his body but against Kid Buu it was clear that he was damaged and passed out from exhaustion.

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Perhaps his power isn’t different whether or not he is dead or alive. It might just boil down to the fact that while he is dead, he is better equipped to handle the form without the strain on his body.

When he was fighting Fat Buu, it was said multiple times that Majin Buu’s power was increasing to keep up with Goku’s beacuse he said that the more power he puts out the more powerful Buu became.

Against Kid Buu it seemed clear that the Majin was able to keep up with Goku but it was never said that he was getting stronger just that he had the speed and endurance to keep up with Goku. Though it has to be mentioned that the battle took such a toll on Goku that it got to the point where his attacks were not even fazing Buu anymore.

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Similar to 100% Frieza vs. Goku on Namek, Frieza’s body was being strained by his power and he was getting weaker the longer the fight went on

So, if it were a battle between Fat Buu and Kid Buu I think that Fat Buu just might come out on top but with the Instant Transmission it might be possible for Kid Buu to win due to his berserk nature vs. the laid back nature of Fat Buu.

Really it is similar to Buff vs. Buuccolo in that it is more than just raw power but abilities.

Those were the only points that I felt needed to be addressed in terms of any doubts that I was having before.

Which is the best Buu?

When it really boils down to it, there are only TWO pure Majin Buus and those are Evil and Kid Buu. All of the other Buus have another being inside of them taking away from his pure Majin nature in both power, personality  and danger level.

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Look at the fission from Good Buu like Kami and King Piccolo

We have an extremely powerful being (Fat Buu) who is generally good but due to an unseen evil in their heart it must be expelled and the result is two beings of equal power but one good and the other evil.

However, in Buu’s case it is clear that the evil side is far more powerful than the good.

And that makes perfect sense!

Remember Kid Buu was 100% evil and only “good” after absorbing the 2 Kais and even then he wasn’t completely good and not completely evil.

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And remember Fat Buu was generally good and hungry like Grand Supreme Kai however you could tell he was still somewhat evil. His eyes would open whenever he was mad or about to do something evil like kill people for no reason at all showing that the destructive Kid Buu was still inside of him somewhere.

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The reverse can be said after Evil Buu eats Good Buu and the evil takes over with the Good holding him back with candy cravings and not killing Hercule

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So, when you think about it Evil Buu is the physical manifestation of the evil inside of Fat Buu and really he could be interpreted as another form of Kid Buu.

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Kind of like Gray Hulk is to Bruce Banner in that he is smarter and can talk clearer than Green Hulk; similar to Evil Buu and Good Buu

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It is obvious Good Buu got the short end of the stick with Evil Buu pretty much easily swatting around his good counterpart and for some reason after coming together again to form Super Buu he could sense Ki…

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Yeah I have to scratch my head on that one because it was as random as Vegeta learning how to do it after his beam collision with Goku back in the Saiyan Saga due to him saying as a Great Ape that he could “feel” Goku in the area while he was collecting Ki for the Spirit Bomb

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In terms of which is the strongest or best Majin Buu then the obvious winner is Kid Buu since he is a PURE Majin Buu who is stronger than Evil Buu.

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Though when you throw in his multiple incarnations including his Fusion with other beings then of course Buuhan is #1

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One thing about Kid Buu that makes it difficult to measure his power is that he never fights seriously.

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It seems like he’ll gladly take an attack that blasts him to bits but reforms like it was nothing.

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It seemed that Super Saiyan 2 Goku was holding his own against Kid Buu but the Majin was EASILY able to beat Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who is equal in power to Goku. That might be due to Goku being a superior marital artists than Vegeta or because Goku and Kid Buu was sizing each other up before the real fight began when he went Super Saiyan 3.

Though it is the unpredictability of Kid Buu that makes him one of my favorites I will say that much about him.

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We saw the limits of Buuhan’s power since he could mimic the moves of the fighters he absorbed and because Vegito was more powerful than him so he had to pull out all the stops and from what we’ve seen I don’t know why people think that Kid Buu could defeat him

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I mean take away the dialouge from the Kais about Kid Buu being the most powerful and please explain WHY he is stronger. I mean we are talking about Kibito Kai (50% Supreme Kai) who didn’t know the Super Saiyans existed, the Potara Earring effects and the list goes on about how bad of a guardian he is. So, why take his word so seriously?

In conclusion:

I just feel that Super Buu or more specifically Buutenks and Buuhan were far more powerful than Kid Buu. The main reason why is that their existence demanded Fusion to be used to compete or beat them.

After Gotenks’ Fusion time ran out, Super Saiyan 3 Goku was confident that Gohan alone could finish off Buu

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Well until Buu absorbed Gohan as well making Goku desperate for a Fusion partner

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Goku was pretty confident in his own abilities to defeat Kid Buu and seriously, I think that he could do it if he had the time to gather the necessary Ki.

So that pretty much sums up why I feel that Buuhan is far more powerful than Kid Buu and why I rank them from strongest from weakest the way that I do.

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Regardless of what the anime or manga says, I just feel that it is for a reason given the fact we are shown powerful characters like Mystic Gohan, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Vegito who outclass Super Saiyan 3 Goku in power but Buu proved to be more powerful than Gotenks and Gohan.

Now it is time for the fans to speak up as to whether or not you agree with me and why.

Thanks for reading!