Dragon Ball Z: Is Super Saiyan 3 Goku More Powerful Than Ultimate Gohan?

By Jeremy Carden

There is a battle that has caused a lot of tension within the fan base of the Dragon Ball series. I have seen many blogs and videos about this particular subject. Fans have debated about Gogeta vs. Vegito, Kid Buu vs. Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed) and Goku vs. Superman.

However, the topic of this blog will focus on the ultimate battle between Goku and Gohan.

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While reading this blog, please remember that I will be discussing Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan (also called Mystic Gohan by some fans) from the Majin Buu Saga.

This blog will not include anything between the time of Kid Buu’s death and the ending of DBZ when Goku leaves with Uub.

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That means nothing about Super Saiyan God or Dragon Ball GT will be included in this blog.

Let’s get this battle started! As with most of my “Who would win?” blogs, I will start this one by expressing my thoughts right off the bat. I feel that in terms of power alone; Gohan is the winner.

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Does that mean he would win? Yes…and no. Just because Gohan is more powerful than Goku does not mean that he would win.

At this point, some readers are probably shaking their heads at my belief that Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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Before I go any further, I just want to say that this blog is based on my own personal opinion. If you feel that Goku is more powerful than Gohan then you are entitled to your opinion. From this point on in the blog, I will attempt to use facts from the manga AND anime in order to get my point across. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below after finishing this blog, and you can tell me if I have persuaded you that Gohan is more powerful.

Believe it or not, when it comes down to determining which warrior is more powerful; you have to examine which form of Majin Buu is more powerful. The 2 Buus that I am talking about are Super Buu and Kid Buu.

The reason that I picked out these forms of Buu is because they are the Buus that Goku and Gohan battled the hardest against.

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If you have ever read my very first DBZ blog about which form of Buu is the most powerful, then you know that I feel that Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed) is the strongest, and Kid Buu is far from #1.

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In any case, we know that Kid Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are more or less equals. It was mentioned that if Goku had started off the fight at 100%, and did not hold back so that Vegeta would have a chance to fight; he could have killed Kid Buu.

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He mentioned the same about his battle with Fat Buu, but in that case he was not holding back for Vegeta’s sake. In that fight, he was holding back in order for Gohan, Goten and Trunks to have a shot at fighting for the planet. However, unlike the battle with Kid Buu, it was clear that he was holding back (a lot) during his fight with Fat Buu. He did not battle to the point of exhausted as he did against Kid Buu.

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When talking about two fighters who were more or less equals, Super Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks seem to fit that category very nicely. Gotenks was playing around with Buu during their fight, and it was literally a back and forth conflict. Each fighter was able to take a blow, and dish one back out to their opponent! You could argue that Buu was holding back because he was waiting for Gohan to arrive, but it is clear he and Gotenks were on the same plateau of power.

It was Buu’s regeneration powers and endurance that kept the young Super Saiyan 3 from putting him down for the count. However, when Gotenks was about to kill Buu for good, his power ran out and his Fusion ended.

Alright, so we know that Goku and Gotenks had the power to completely annihilate the pink menace that they battled against. They just held back for different reasons; Goku for his respect of Vegeta’s pride, and Gotenks’ cocky nature.

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This leads us to Goku’s comment to Vegeta before they escaped from Super Buu’s head. He mentioned that neither of them could survive if Buu fought them after leaving his body. Fusion was the only way that he and Vegeta would stand a chance.

Goku was literally saying that he was NOT powerful enough to destroy Super Buu if they had to battle him!

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Remember that Ultimate Gohan mopped the floor with Super Buu. He did not even use ki attacks against the pink titan, he was using nothing but melee attacks to push Buu into a corner.

This leads to another point about how powerful Buu became after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo. We have established that Gohan is more powerful than Super Buu, and this means he is clearly more powerful than Gotenks.

He took Buu apart without much effort, but Gotenks was literally kept on his toes by Buu’s power. So, after absorbing Gotenks, we can assume that Buu’s power pretty much doubled in power.

I think we can conclude that Buu’s absorption technique is a power-up that takes the person(s) absorbed, and adds their power to Buu’s.

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With that being said, “Buutenks” had a power that was over double what it was before. Keep in mind that Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks were pretty much even, and he took Piccolo’s power too (though the Namek’s absorption was more about adding his intelligence to Buu rather than his overall power).

In the anime, Gohan and Buu were on par with each other. It was not until Buu starting using “the Piccolo in him” to chip away at Gohan’s confidence, and that led to him being completely overpowered.

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Unlike the anime, the manga portrayal of Buutenks vs. Gohan was showing Buu’s power to be something that Gohan stood absolutely no chance against.

It appears that Gohan was indeed superior to Buu and Gotenks, but less than twice their power. I would say that he was probably somewhere between 1.2-1.5 times more powerful than Super Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Where does this leave Goku?

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Another blog that I wrote awhile back was concerning the subject of Super Gotenks’ power compared to Goku’s. In that blog, I talked about my thoughts on how even a Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks had power that was superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Why would I say that?

Remember that Goku originally declined killing the Fat Buu because he wanted the boys to save the world instead of relying on him (since he was dead, Goku did not feel it was his right to step in as a savior to the planet).

He taught the boys the Fusion Dance, and felt that it would be the ONLY way of defeating Buu. Trunks asked why he did not teach them Super Saiyan 3 because if he and Goten teamed up at that level then they would beat Buu for sure. However, Goku told them that Fusion was the ONLY way.

After seeing how sad they were, he showed them Super Saiyan 3 before leaving with Baba. In my opinion, I feel that Goku thought that Goten and Trunks fused as Super Saiyans would be enough to defeat Buu (without the need for a Super Saiyan 3 transformation). Goku knew that level 3 was something not meant to be used in the living world due to the rapid ki depletion that it causes for the user outside of other world.

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Considering that he had just fought Buu himself at Super Saiyan 3, I think that Goku knew for a fact that a Super Saiyan 1 Fusion would be enough to kill Buu. This means that it is safe to conclude that Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-Time Chamber) was in the same realm of power as Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

Let’s take things a step further in order to analyze just how powerful Gotenks was. After training in the Time Chamber for 30 minutes on the outside world before Super Buu lost his patience (which equals just about 7 and a half days inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber), Gotenks’ power was said to have increased dramatically.

I think that if there was a gap between pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyan Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku; that gap was closed after the children’s 7.5 days of training.

I dare say that Gotenks may have become even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. By how much was never determined, but for the sake of simplicity (without downplaying either of their power levels), let’s say that Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku were even.

Going Super Saiyan 2 doubles the power of a Super Saiyan 1, and going Super Saiyan 3 multiples the power of a Super Saiyan 2 by four.

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Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (at minimum) is 8 times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (who is more or less on the same playing field as Super Buu), but not twice as powerful.

Overall, Goku is not as powerful as Gotenks and Gohan. However, his original goal of having the boys measure up to their destinies as the protectors of the planet was realized. His intention was making them even more powerful than he was in order to save the earth from Buu.

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This same goal was similar to Goku’s plans of having Gohan exceed his power to save the world from Cell.

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Not to mention that Piccolo’s goal during the Saiyan Saga was training Gohan to become more powerful than him as well!

In any case, I think I have spelled out why I feel that Ultimate Gohan’s power is clearly superior to his father’s even at Super Saiyan 3.

Considering that Gohan is more powerful than his dad, you are probably wondering whether or not Gohan would be named as the winner before the battle even began.

I say that despite being more powerful, Gohan would not easily win the battle. This is mainly due to Goku being the superior fighter.

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Looking back at the DBZ series, I feel that Gohan’s power and combat skills were at their peak during the Cell Games.

True, Old Kai unlocked ALL of his hidden powers, but that would not unlock his combat skills and fighting instincts.

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Vegeta mentioned that Gohan’s power was a lot higher as a child, and this was when he witnessed Gohan power up to show Kibito the Super Saiyan 2 level.

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While watching his son fight with Dabura, Goku even brings up the fact that Gohan’s fighting sense was lost during his 7 years of no training.

After the battle with Cell, Gohan pretty much neglected his training in favor of studying. The end result was that his 11-year-old persona was more powerful both in strength and in fighting abilities.

Compare this to Goku, he trained for 7 years straight against warriors from across space and time during his stay on the Grand Kai’s planet.

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Before he slacked off in his training, Gohan knew everything that his father had to teach him. Their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber allowed Gohan to pick up on his father’s technique and surpass his power.

If Ultimate Gohan fought against Super Saiyan 3 Goku, I’d say that Goku would be able to not only predict what Gohan would do next, but outsmart him as well during combat. Goku taught Gohan nearly everything that he knows about fighting.

Piccolo was the only other person to train Gohan. Krillin and Gohan did “mind training” on their trip to Namek, but we know that his father and “Big Green Uncle” were his primary instructors.

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Keep in mind that Goku spent 3 years training alongside Gohan and Piccolo. This means that he has seen everything that Gohan knows about fighting and enhanced his son’s skills in the Time Chamber.

Again, Gohan is more powerful, but Goku has been able to hold his own against more powerful opponents in the past.

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It has also been shown many times that if Goku is backed into a corner, he is capable of reaching incredible new levels of power.

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Of course, we know that Gohan does the same, and that goes to show he is indeed the son of Goku.

Aside from strength, Gohan has one huge advantage over Super Saiyan 3 Goku that has not yet been mentioned. Gohan’s power would not deplete as quickly as Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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Remember that Goku admitted to Vegeta that even though he can go Super Saiyan 3; he can only hold the form for a short amount of time.

For fans who say that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is more powerful than Ultimate Gohan, I ask you this one question: Could Goku defeat his son before his Super Saiyan 3 power depletes?

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With a well placed Warp Kamehameha, I think that he could deal some heavy damage. Either way, I think this would be a tough battle.

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Super Saiyan Goku was holding his own so against Ultimate Gohan…well it was Buu’s thought form of Ultimate Gohan. Not to mention it was a filler scene, but I wanted to mention this because I know someone would say something about it in the comment section.

Something to remember about this fight was that Goku was getting exhausted, but Gohan was a thought form meaning that he could not be damaged or weakened so their battle is not really something to be used as solid evidence for this subject.

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Ultimate Gohan’s power is his maximum potential brought out to the surface, and it does not deplete his ki supply like a Super Saiyan 3 transformation would. Goku even says that Gohan’s power was higher than it was ever was even when his son was a Super Saiyan.

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The one moment that we could have and should have seen these 2 fighting was right after Gohan powered up after Old Kai unlocked his potential.

Just as Goku showed Goten and Trunks how to go Super Saiyan 3 before going back to the land of the dead, I think he should have battled Gohan before his son returned to the land of the living.

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Would have been a great touch as to how Goku shows his love for his children in the best way that he knows how.

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Buutenks reverting back to Buuccolo was another moment in the anime and manga that differed. In the anime, Goku was at Super Saiyan 3, but was doing what he could just to keep up with Buu. Fans argue that he was stalling for Gohan to find the Potara Earring. In the manga, this “fight” never happened; Buutenks went to Buuccolo without fighting Goku.

However, for fans who think Goku was more powerful than Buutenks: why would Goku want or need to permanently fuse with Ultimate Gohan…if he had the power to do it solo?

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In the manga and anime, Goku states that Gohan could defeat Buuccolo all by himself. The way he says that does seem to imply that Goku was disappointed in Buu’s drastic drop in power. I mean Goku was in a tense situation because he was desperate to fuse with Gohan, but now he was in a position where fusion was not needed because Gohan could win alone.

Really it is all up to personal interpretation about how Goku said what he said about Gohan beating Buu. I will admit that it does seem like Goku is saying that he could take Buu himself, but really I just do not think that this is the case.

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One last piece of evidence that fans like to bring up is the fact that Goku’s Ki was sensed from the Sacred Land of the Kais from Earth.

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However, when Gohan unleashed his new power, Buu was the ONLY person in the lower realm (Earth) to take notice of his power.

I think that ki sensing somehow works in reverse when it comes to comparing the lower realm (land of the living) and the other world (land of the dead).

On Supreme Kai’s planet, it makes sense that they could sense an extremely high power level from earth. However, it also makes sense that an extremely high power from the Kai planet could not be sensed from earth.

Remember that in the anime, Goku mentioned that Kid Buu was using Instant Transmission. That was how he found other planets with high ki readings during his hunt for Goku and Vegeta.

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In the manga, it was mentioned that he was using the “Kai Kai” or Instantaneous Moment used by Kibito Kai. This is a teleporting technique that does not require a ki signature for the user to transport to. This explains how in the manga, Kid Buu regenerated from his Planet Burst move on earth, and then went instantly to Supreme Kai’s planet to fight the Saiyans.

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Compared to the anime, Kid Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta when they raised their power levels to draw Buu to their location. He was on Grand Kai’s planet during that moment, and it made sense that he could track their powers since he was in the other world just as they were.

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What does this have to do with Buu sensing Gohan’s power from earth? Well Super Buu is an interesting being because he detected Gohan’s power, but Piccolo nor the boys (Goten and Trunks) were able to sense it. Perhaps it is because he is a powerful being that he could track a power that a Namek could not? Either way, it could be because Gohan was in the middle of a magical ceremony that his power was more “contained” when he unleashed it when compared to a Super Saiyan transformation.

I mean Gohan was on the verge of damaging the Kai planet by powering up, and Goku was on the verge of ripping apart the earth. The main difference was that Goku was not using Super Saiyan 3 for the first time, and he was “putting on a show” in order to stall for Trunks to find the Dragon Radar.

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We later saw that he could go Super Saiyan 3 in an instant as he did against Buutenks.

Gohan was doing the “Super Saiyan thing” as Old Kai put it in order to unleash his true power. So, I can see why the lower realm would have a difficult time tracking a high ki signature from the land of the dead.

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How else can you explain no one on earth sensing Goku’s power when he first unlocked Super Saiyan 3 during his time on Grand Kai’s planet?

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In the end, I think that Gohan has the power to win, but Goku has the skill to stay alive until he finds a weakness in Gohan’s defenses in order to land some powerful hits.

What do you think about this? Do you feel that Gohan’s power is superior, or does Super Saiyan 3 Goku have the power to surpass his son?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Z Revival of F: Is Golden Frieza More Powerful Than Beerus?

By Jeremy Carden

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What would happen if the God of Destruction fought against the Emperor of the Universe?

This is one question that has been asked by many fans since Frieza returned from the grave!

In Revival of F, Frieza comes back to get revenge on the Saiyans who defeated him in the past. After 4 months of training, the tyrant reaches a new power that he feels is more than enough to bury Goku and his friends for good.

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According to his Japanese voice actor, Frieza’s power is clocked at 100 quintillion in his Golden Form. Most fans do not take this number to heart because this is a voice actor’s words, and not the “official” words of Akira Toriyama.

In any case, we do know that Golden Frieza is not an opponent to take lightly. However, how does his new power stack up to Beerus?

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In Battle of Gods, it is mentioned that Beerus was not a fan of Frieza’s self-entitled attitude. Beerus even says that he would destroy Frieza the next time they crossed paths.

That one moment during the movie was something that caught the attention of fans because it hinted at a possible encounter between Beerus and Frieza (despite the fact that he was dead at the time).

In order to figure out if Golden Frieza could defeat Beerus, it is essential to look at his battles against Goku and Vegeta.

At the level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Goku and Vegeta are said to be more powerful than Beerus (at 70% power). Whis says that if the 2 Saiyans were to fight Beerus as a team, they could potentially defeat the God of Destruction.

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Golden Frieza was shown to be more powerful than an individual Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Goku even states that he was losing his battle with Frieza. He was not able to start gaining the upper hand in the fight until Frieza’s power began to drop.

So, we do know that in terms of raw power; Frieza is more powerful than the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans.

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Just like his 100% form on Namek, Frieza’s strength is not fully under his control. Due to this flaw, his power level begins to drop the longer he is battling at his peak power.

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This confirms that Golden Frieza is at least more powerful than Beerus at 70% of his maximum power.

Does this mean that Golden Frieza could defeat Beerus if he was at his maximum power?

In my opinion, I do not think that Frieza could defeat Beerus.

Even though 4 months of training was enough to bring Frieza’s abilities to combat the Saiyans, I do not think it was enough to take on Beerus.

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The Super Saiyan God form is very similar to Golden Frieza. Remember that Goku was only fighting at 80% power during his battle with Beerus. Right when he was about to ramp it up to 100%, the time limit on the Super Saiyan God power ran out.

When you look at it from that perspective, Super Saiyan God has the obvious flaw of having a time limit, and that can cause the user to be left in a life-threatening situation.

After mastering the form by training under Whis, Goku and Vegeta were able to take it to the next level as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans.

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This is similar to Gohan and Goku mastering the regular Super Saiyan form, and becoming Full Power Super Saiyans during their training in the Time Chamber.

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Without the handicap of a time limit to slow him down, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku was able to fight with a power that surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku.

I think that if Frieza had taken time to master his new Golden Form, he could have reached a power that did not have a severe handicap just like Goku and Vegeta were able to acquire.

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Keep in mind that mastery over his Golden Form could have resulted in a new transformation! Remember that his older brother (Cooler) was able to master his true form (or 4th form depending on how you look at it), and from there unlocked an entirely new form.

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As Vegeta pointed out, Frieza should have mastered his new Golden Form prior to coming to earth for revenge. Perhaps things would have turned out differently for him if he had taken that advice.

If Frieza had actually mastered his Golden Form, then I think he might have been able to surpass even the power of Beerus.

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It is a scary realization to say that in only 4 months, Frieza was able to pass by the power of the Super Saiyan Gods! I mean Goku and Vegeta are the best of the best, but Frieza had them beat.

Even though I loved seeing Vegeta beat the crap out of Frieza, I was a bit disappointed that the main reason he was able to do so was because of Frieza’s power dropping during his fight with Goku.

Golden Frieza noticed that Beerus was on earth during his fight with Goku, and the tyrant’s face was covered in fear! Now if he had mastered that Golden Form, then perhaps he would have challenged Beerus after killing the Saiyans.

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Another thing to take into consideration is Frieza’s skill. It is true that his power is incredible, but he lacks the training of superior mentors to add more moves to his already deadly arsenal. Goku has had a lot of mentors during his lifetime, Vegeta’s first true master is Whis, and Beerus trained with Whis as well.

Whis points out that Beerus still has his own flaws to overcome to become a perfect warrior. He has pride just like the Saiyans, and his anger gets the better of him. However, I think his skill surpasses Frieza’s in the long run.

What do you think of my theory on this battle between destroyers? Do you feel that Frieza does have the power in Golden Form to surpass the power of Beerus?

Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?

Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?

 

Dragonball Z: How Strong Is Piccolo?

by Jeremy Carden

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Piccolo is one of the underdog heroes of the Dragonball franchise. Like many of the characters on the show, the Namekian was overshadowed greatly in power by the Super Saiyans. It is a real shame because before Vegeta came into the picture he was Goku’s archenemy turned rival turned friend.

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It is highly debated just how strong the Namek is towards the end of the Dragonball Z series especially when we are introduced to the Supreme Kai.

After the Frieza Saga, the appearance of power levels or official power readings for characters is pretty much nonexistent in the series. So don’t expect me to list off power levels that read in the 100 millions or anything like that (except for the ones in the Frieza Saga that ARE official).

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What I will do is estimate Piccolo’s power around the time of the final battle with Frieza on Namek just so we have a starting point.

Frieza’s transformation into his second form marks the first time in the series where fans (and the Z-Fighters) were introduced to a character that had a power level over 1,000,000!

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It seemed clear that Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan would be no match whatsoever for the murderous tyrant. After being wished back to life and arriving on Namek, Piccolo fused with one of the last surviving Nameks (aside from Dende) in order to combat the evil of Frieza. The fusion with Nail sent Piccolo’s power through the roof and he was able to fight evenly with Frieza in his 2nd form.

When Frieza began to take the fight seriously, he was able to beat Piccolo into the dirt. It wasn’t until he removed his weighted clothing that Piccolo was able to dominate the tyrant. After Frieza transformed into his 3rd form, Piccolo was completely outclassed in both power AND speed.

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Overall, we can conclude that Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) was well over 1 million. He was able to go toe to toe with Frieza even with his weights on. When he took them off his power and speed went up. If I had to make an assumption, I’d say that without his weights and at his maximum power level…I’d clock Piccolo around 1,400,000.

As a side note, Goku’s base power after healing from the battle with Ginyu was 3 million which was of course above Piccolo. Just keep that in mind when I get to the Trunks Saga.

Now there was a 1 ½ year gap between the time of Namek’s explosion and Goku’s eventual arrival back on Earth from the Planet Yardrat.

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Something else that I’ll mention despite being filler is the Garlic Jr. Saga. Before Garlic Jr. releases the Black Water Mist on the Earth, we see Piccolo in some mountains doing some training so we know what he wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing until Goku came back.

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The threat of Garlic Jr. was soon silenced, but then came the return of Frieza who came to Earth with his father. Despite his training after the battle on Namek, it was clear that Piccolo was no match for the evil space tyrant.

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Trunks arrives and defeats Frieza and his father but then delivers a warning for the Z-Fighters (mainly Goku) about how 2 Androids will arrive to kill them all.

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From there it is non-stop training for the Z-Team…except for when Goku and Piccolo go to earn their driver’s license…

In any case, it was Goku training with Piccolo and Gohan to prepare for the upcoming threat!

3 years pass and the Z-Fighters square off against the Androids that Trunks warned them about (or so they thought)!

Super Saiyan Goku started off knocking #19 around like he was nothing until his heart virus weakened him. Enter Vegeta, who swooped in with his new Super Saiyan powers to finish the fight and then it turned into a chase through the mountains to follow Android #20.

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Piccolo was caught off guard by the old Android and lost some Ki. After receiving a Senzu Bean from Gohan, Piccolo was smacking around #20 like he was nothing.

Krillin who was amazed by this sight was quick to comment that Piccolo might actually be as strong as a Super Saiyan causing Vegeta to give a smug look and say “Right…”

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Regardless of his power, when #18 and #17 were activated by Dr. Gero…Piccolo was defeated as easily as Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta.

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Before we get to his fusion with his “other half” Kami, I think it is important to go back and reevaluate just how powerful Piccolo was after his 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the Android threat.

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Some fans believe Piccolo to be around the power of Super Saiyan Goku on Namek (which was 150 million) while other fans don’t believe that he could raise his power level that significantly without doing a Fusion with another Namek.

Personally, I don’t think it would be THAT unbelievable. Let me break it down:

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When they first began their training, we saw Goku (base form) fighting evenly with Piccolo. It was a pretty impressive sparring match and Gohan was stunned by their battle. After they disappeared, Gohan sensed them and began fighting as well.

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Keep in mind that Goku’s base power on Namek was 3 million which was above Piccolo who I wagered was around 1,400,000. Throw in a Zenkai boost after recovering from his battle with Frieza and the time he spent training on Yardrat and Goku’s power level was higher than 3 million.

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Another topic fans debate over is whether or not Goku actually trained AS a Super Saiyan while preparing for the Android threat. In retrospect, he wouldn’t really have to train as a Super Saiyan. He told Trunks that while on Yardrat, he was learned how to transform at will rather than having to be overcome by anger and rage to go Super Saiyan. Of course, he wouldn’t have full control over the form until after his time with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

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His training partners were a Namek that he was stronger than in base form and his Saiyan/Human offspring that wasn’t as powerful as he was. If Goku turned Super Saiyan boosting his power by 50, he’d completely dominate them with no effort whatsoever.

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I think that against Gohan, Goku remained in base form and trained him along with Piccolo. On the days when Chi-Chi made Gohan study rather than train (remember the deal she made with Goku was to allow Gohan to train BUT still study instead of 3 nonstop years of roughhousing), I feel that Goku and Piccolo were able to do SERIOUS training with no holding back.

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Kind of like how Goten and Gohan were able to do serious Super Saiyan combat training when Gohan wasn’t holding back his powers in order to teach Videl how to fly. I think the same applied to Goku and Piccolo’s training.

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We all know that these two do not hold back in their training and knowing Piccolo I doubt he wanted to fight or train with Goku unless he was at his best! Not to mention if Piccolo needed to work on a weakness or strength he could use his Multi-Form technique to “train himself.”

So, I honestly believe that at some points in their training Goku would go Super Saiyan so Piccolo could spar with a stronger opponent to test and increase the limits of his own powers. I mean the best way to get stronger is to train with someone stronger than you are.

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Going back to Krillin’s statement about Piccolo possibly being as powerful as a Super Saiyan, I think there might be some truth behind that. He was easily able to dominate #20 just like Super Saiyan Vegeta was able to beat down #19. It was said numerous times by #20 that he was FAR superior to the Android 19 model so there is even more proof behind that statement.

Of course, I don’t think that Piccolo could defeat Super Saiyan Vegeta or Goku. I will say that he might be able to give Super Saiyan Trunks a run for his money. Piccolo has far more training than the Saiyan from the future and he doesn’t rely on a weapon for combat. He is smarter than Trunks and I believe if it came down to those two battling it out, I believe Piccolo would win it.

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The way Trunks spoke about the Androids, it was as if he was literally saying that Frieza would be no match for them. You can see the truth in his statement because he talked about how the Androids of his time hunted him down for fun. Trunks had just killed Frieza AND King Cold with ease. It turns out that he was referring to #17 and #18, but the Z-Fighters didn’t know that. I don’t think that Piccolo would be willing to fight these new foes if he wasn’t at least as powerful as Frieza was back on Namek. His maximum power at 100% was 120 million when he fought Super Saiyan Goku.

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One last piece of evidence of Piccolo’s power increase comes from looking at Goku and Gohan’s Time Chamber training. Gohan literally begged his father to not hold back during training because if he did then he would never become a Super Saiyan. When Goku agreed to fight at his maximum Gohan did go Super Saiyan and eventually went from not being able to keep up with Goku even in base form to surpassing him!

I think the same happened when Goku trained with Piccolo (except for Piccolo surpassing Goku) and this helped Piccolo get much more powerful as a result.

With that in mind, I think that Piccolo would be able to defeat the space tyrant after his 3 years of training.

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Alright, now that we have that out of the way it is time to get to the “Nameless Namek!” With the Androids on their way to kill Goku after easily defeating the Z-Fighters, Piccolo journeyed to Kami’s Lookout to fuse with Kami.

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The Guardian of the Earth eventually caved in and allowed Piccolo to merge with him. Piccolo (now known as Kamiccolo, the Original Namek or the Nameless Namek) met the new threat the Kami felt taking shape over the past 3 years down on Earth (without telling anyone…): Cell!

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It was an impressive battle, but even though it seemed like Cell was winning it turned out to be a false front; Kamiccolo was playing possum to learn who and what Cell was along with his intentions!

This was similar to Vegeta willingly allowing #19 to absorb his Ki to confirm that the Androids absorbed their victim’s energy through the palms on their hands!

Kamiccolo said that he’d easily destroy the creature now that he had received the information needed and he was going to until Cell used the Solar Flare to escape.

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On the hunt for this new enemy, Piccolo eventually went toe to toe with Android 17! It was a neck and neck battle where we saw the true power of his fusion with Kami.

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Piccolo went from being knocked out by a punch to the gut from #17 to delivering blow after blow to the Android! Regardless it was clear that power wise these two were dead even, but the only difference was that 17’s energy level and stamina never decreased. The only way to truly win would be for Piccolo to destroy his robotic opponent.

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Actually, Piccolo was going to destroy #17 but thanks to plot…I mean a barrier…the Hellzone Grenade wasn’t able to finish the job.

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When Cell reappeared to absorb the Androids it was clear his power now made Piccolo’s seem insignificant. It came from absorbing countless human beings and increasing his power to a level here he could easily take down anything in his way (except #16).

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Even Piccolo’s most powerful attack (Light Grenade) did nothing against Cell!

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After breaking his neck and blasting away most of his stomach, Cell tossed the Namek into the ocean.

Goku saved Piccolo and Tien by taking them back to the Lookout to recover with some Senzu Beans. After Super Vegeta (Ascended Super Saiyan) botched up the battle with Cell by allowing him to absorb #18, Piccolo thought it best to take matters into his own hands and train inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber himself!

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When he reemerged, his power was enough to stun Future Trunks and made Goku remark about how impressive the boost in his power increase was. Of course, Goku pointed out that even though Piccolo was a lot more powerful than before he was still no match for Perfect Cell.

The last time we see Piccolo in a real battle was when he fought the Cell Jrs. alongside the other Z-Fighters.

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Once again we enter into debatable territory regarding how well Piccolo was holding his own against Cell’s “children.” If you ask me I think it was clear that Piccolo was one of the “leading forces” in that battle aside from the Ascended Super Saiyans Trunks and Vegeta who were having their own trouble with ONE Cell Jr. apiece!

Cell told Gohan that aside from Trunks and Vegeta no one could hold up against his children, which was false because Piccolo was doing just as well as the Super Saiyans!

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Krillin, Yamcha and Tien were obviously outclassed while Goku was still heavily damaged and weak from his battle with Perfect Cell. Tien and Yamcha had to protect him, Krillin was the one that was easily defeated and Piccolo was the “floater” pretty much helping out when needed knocking out many of the Cell Jrs. (who would annoyingly get back up over and over again).

Just a quick comment, the Cell Jrs. were holding back at first because their job was to TORMENT not KILL the Z-Fighters that was why Tien and Yamcha were able to kick a few of them around to protect Goku but were eventually knocked out for good.

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Sadly Krillin was pretty much useless and the Cell Jrs. enjoyed torturing him more than the others.

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Cell eventually told them to start killing the heroes in order to finally fuel Gohan’s rage enough to the point where his hidden powers would rise to the surface. That was when they started going for blood and all of the Z-Fighters (including Piccolo) were finally down until Gohan went Super Saiyan 2.

Now you are probably wondering how Piccolo was able to hold his own despite not being a Super Saiyan. Once again it is time to break things down;

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I believe that after his Time Chamber training, Piccolo was at least around the power of Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta after their first time going in the chamber.

As I mentioned before, we don’t know the power levels of the characters after their battle with Frieza. So for this example, I’ll be using just small numbers and maybe fractions to prove my point.

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Kamiccolo was more powerful than Imperfect Cell (before absorbing 1,000s of humans), even with #17 and stronger than the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. I don’t think that Piccolo was twice the power of a Super Saiyan though.

When Vegeta came out of the Time Chamber, Goku said that he’d have to AT LEAST triple his power to stand a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell which caused Vegeta to laugh. This implies that he at least tripled his power or went above even that.

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Theoretically I think that he tripled the power of his base and Super Saiyan form. However, he took it a step further by achieving the Ascended Super Saiyan form.

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With that being said here is what I think; I’d put Kamiccolo as a 5 while the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans would be a 3. During his time training, I feel that Vegeta was not only able to catch up to Kamicclo and close the gap in their power but he took it a step further by going Ascended Super Saiyan!

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Something else that might help my claim is how Vegeta reacted to Piccolo when he came out of the chamber. While Trunks was stunned at his power increase, Vegeta insulted the Namek saying that he hadn’t changed at all and that all he was doing was wasting time while the real warriors had to wait for him until he came out. On that note, Vegeta smirked as he closed the door behind him saying that Goku had better watch out because he was once again going to claim his spot as the best in the universe.

Now the one thing in this scene that really caught my attention was how Piccolo reacted to Vegeta’s statement; he didn’t say ONE word. This was a huge contrast to the Piccolo we’ve seen in the past who was quick to fly off at an insult especially from Vegeta.

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If you ask me, I feel that the year spent in the Time Chamber was more than just a power-up for Piccolo. I think the time alone training allowed Piccolo to become more “united” with Kami by meditation and once again becoming the one Nameless Namek in both body AND mind.

Kami was more “mature” than Piccolo Jr. and was able to hold his head high even when insulted and this showed itself from Kamiccolo when Vegeta insulted him. If you ask me, Vegeta (like Trunks) could sense Piccolo’s power-up but refused to acknowledge it. Again proving or suggesting that the Namek was once again in the ranks of the Super Saiyans.

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Going along with my above statement, I think that Piccolo at least tripled his power level allowing him to be on the same playing field as the Ascended Super Saiyans.

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Despite going in the Time Chamber AGAIN for a second year separately, Trunks and Vegeta were not able to boost their powers as impressively as the first time so they might have once again surpassed Piccolo but not by that much.

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When Vegeta did exit the Time Chamber the second time, Piccolo (without even turning around having his back turned to Vegeta) commented that he was impressed by Vegeta’s power but it was still not enough to defeat Cell…

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The Saiyan Prince just smirked at the comment!

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Finally, we get to the Majin Buu Saga which takes place 7 years after the events of the Cell Games. Piccolo was now living on Kami’s Lookout teaching Dende more about how to be Earth’s Guardian alongside Mr. Popo. Unlike Gohan, I doubt that Piccolo just sat around doing nothing. I’m sure that like Vegeta he was training in the event of another threat that would put the Earth in peril.

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Here we come to another hot topic of discussion: Was Piccolo REALLY weaker than Supreme Kai?

In the manga and anime, Piccolo says that the difference between himself and Supreme Kai (Shin) was dimensions apart in terms of power. Now I’m going to be honest and say that I do not believe that Shin could defeat Piccolo…depending on the circumstances.

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Keep in mind that Piccolo looked like he crapped his pants (that is if Nameks even need to use the restroom) when he thought that Shin was the Grand Kai. It stands to reason that it was the “Kami in him” that made him hesitate and ponder Shin’s true identity instead of fighting. That only makes sense because being Earth’s guardian and knowing about King Kai and other of the Otherworld deities, he would be the one to make Piccolo hesitant about facing a god of higher ranking than himself.

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Piccolo even said that he wasn’t able to focus his power in order to fight Shin. Now, as I mentioned before in the Cell Saga I’d place Piccolo around the power of the Ascended Super Saiyans. I don’t think that he went without training for 7 years like most of the other Z-Fighters.

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If I were to estimate Piccolo’s power during the Babidi and Majin Buu Sagas, I’d say he would probably be around the strength of the Full Power Super Saiyans (Goku and Gohan). I don’t think he was as powerful as Gohan was when he defeated Cell as a Super Saiyan 2.

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Considering how Shin was scared to death of Dabura (who Goku compared to Perfect Cell), I would put Shin around the power of an Ascended Super Saiyan from the Cell Saga. So the gap between Shin and Piccolo would be there but not as big as you might expect it to be.

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Now something that might blow my theory out of the water is the comment Dabura made to Babidi before attacking the Z-Fighters who thought they were well hidden up on the cliffs outside of Babidi’s spaceship; “7 in all…each of them strong…we cannot use the energy from Supreme Kai or Kibito but 3 of them possess energies that will go a long way towards reviving Majin Buu.”

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Babidi tells him to get rid of the small fry (Piccolo, Krillin and Kibito), keep the Supreme Kai alive so he could deal with him personally and lure the other 3 (Gohan, Goku and Vegeta) into his spaceship.

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In one way, you could interpret Dabura as being able to sense the hidden power (Super Saiyan powers) of the Saiyans despite them being in base form. I doubt he was saying that in base form the 3 Saiyans were more powerful than Piccolo. Come on now, I really don’t think that was the case.

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He was probably saying that out of their group only the Saiyans had the power necessary to bring the revival of Majin Buu much sooner than originally anticipated. I can actually agree with this because Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (who Vegeta pointed out as being a lot stronger when he fought Cell) had his power stolen and his Ki alone was enough to bring Buu’s ball to nearly 50% full! Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan was and during their battle in a short period of time the power lost by Super Saiyan 2 Goku brought the ball to 100%. I don’t think Piccolo would be able to do the same with his power so I can see why Dabura wouldn’t think much of the Namek’s power when compared to the Saiyans.

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Aside from being turned to stone by Dabura, he easily killed (or so he thought) Babidi and then helped teach Goten and Trunks the Fusion Technique.

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His “last stand” so to speak was after Gotenks’ fusion time split and he wanted to fight to the end with Super Buu. This caused Trunks to say “doing the best you can” would not be enough because even as a fused Super Saiyan 3 they still couldn’t defeat the monster!

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That was pretty much the last “battle” Piccolo attempted to engage in for the series. He was absorbed by Super Buu, killed when Kid Buu blew up the Earth and revived by the Dragonballs of Namek before enjoying 10 years of peace before the end of the series.

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I don’t count the “Piccolo” that we see in Buu’s mind fighting against Goku and Vegeta. Just like Gotenks and Gohan, he was just a thought form created by Buu’s mind and not the actual Piccolo.

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Piccolo does appear in the events of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return along with Battle of Gods…where he was easily dispatched by Bills with a pair of chopsticks!

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Piccolo passed on fighting in the 28th World Tournament saying that “He was too old to keep up with Goku and the others.” Despite the fact that he was 31 (32 physically if you count his year in the Time Chamber) which made him only 4 years older than Gohan!

So, he might have done some unseen training between the fight with Kid Buu to Goku’s fight with Uub. However, we don’t see him fighting so I can’t really pinpoint where his power would be. It seems clear that even if he trained it was still no match for the Saiyans given how willingly he stepped down in favor of fighting in the tournament.

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The same can be applied to Dragonball GT, another 10 year gap between DBZ and GT where peace reigns over the Earth. Again, we don’t see Piccolo fighting just appearing after sensing the battle between Gohan and Baby Goten. Baby had taken over Gohan and with one Kamehameha Wave it seemed like he had killed Piccolo.

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He appears to save the Earth (and the universe) from the destructive force of the Blackstar Dragonballs by dying and going to Otherworld.

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When the threat of Super 17 appeared, Piccolo once again stepped up and this time it was to help Goku escape from Hell. In order to help save the Earth, Piccolo remained trapped in Hell so that Goku could protect everyone from the deadly Android. During his time there, it was like he had become the “caretaker” of Hell like Pikkon was in DBZ.

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Goku promised that someday he would get out of Hell and we are brought 100 years into the future where the series ends with Goku Jr. fighting Vegeta Jr. It is unknown if Goku kept his promise and got Piccolo out of Hell or not. One thing is for sure, if Piccolo was left in Hell there is no doubt his power increased considerably during his time there in a dimension full of villains from his past!

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Overall, I’d say Piccolo would possibly be around the power of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan during the Cell Games had he kept up his training after the battle with Kid Buu.

What do you think?

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Could Gohan Ever Go Super Saiyan 3?

by Jeremy Carden

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If the youngest son of Goku can become a Super Saiyan 3 (after fusing with Trunks) then what is stopping Gohan?

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If there was ever a time when Gohan was best suited to go Super Saiyan 3 it would have been during the Cell Saga. For obvious reasons this was not possible because at that time the level did not exist, the series was supposed to end after Gohan won but fan support eventually lead to the Buu Saga and Gohan had reached his peak power.

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Having some control of the Super Saiyan 2 level in my mind would make it easier to become a Super Saiyan 3. Considering that Vegeta and Goku reached the level through training it makes sense that they could transform to Super Saiyan 2 at will easier than Gohan.

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The death of #16 before his very eyes along with his dad and friends getting beaten by the Cell Jrs. caused Gohan to snap and let his emotions free releasing the power hidden inside.

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He did not train for 7 years opting to study and go to school instead of working to gain better control over the form like he had with the regular Super Saiyan transformation becoming a Full Power Super Saiyan.

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Gohan never learned how to just go Super Saiyan 2 without the necessary trigger to make him mad. Remember on Yardrat, Goku worked to be able to go Super Saiyan at will rather than being enraged in order to do so. This was not the case with Gohan and his new found power.

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You could tell that it was a struggle for Gohan to go Super Saiyan 2 after the fight with Cell. When he showed the form to Kibito it was clear that it was a struggle for him to access his power.

There are a couple of reasons for that:

1. Due to lack of training and as a result not being able to use the form at will, it was the cause of Gohan straining to go Super Saiyan 2.

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2. Considering that he was in an arena full of people, Gohan was struggling to contain his power and keep it under control. Similar to Goku powering up against Cell, he had to really concentrate to keep his power contained when he powered up to his maximum.

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#2 seems like a reasonable excuse because Gohan’s power only affected the ring and not the entire arena. It was very cool seeing the tiles floating in the air as he transformed and they all fell back into place after his transformation was completed.

However, it is also plausible that due to not gaining full control of the form it took him a few seconds to push in order to transform.

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The only time that I see Gohan getting truly enraged to the point of his power reminding me of his pre-teen self against Cell was when he saw Spopvich crushing Videl’s head under his foot. He was so angry that he turned Super Saiyan and flew out of the backroom to the stage. When Yamu appeared to tell his partner to stop fooling around, Gohan calmed down.

Seriously, I don’t think Gohan got close to that kind of anger when fighting Dabura or attacking Buu’s egg.

Later on when he confronts Dabura and Babidi with Superme Kai in order to stop Buu’s egg from hatching, he remembers what Goku told him about how if he used the same power he did against Cell then there would be no one who could stop him.

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Gohan was hesitating because it had been so long since that battle and he had forgotten how to unlock that unstoppable power. After some inner monologue, he powered up to Super Saiyan 2 and went in charging to attack but halted when Babidi exclaimed that Buu’s egg had reached full power!

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When Gohan tried blowing the egg away with repeated Kamehameha Waves, I don’t think that was a moment where he could have ascended. I say that simply because he was attacking out of desperation rather than using a level head.

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Goku’s transformation into a Super Saiyan 3 on Earth was felt all the way on Supreme Kai’s Planet where Gohan was training with the Z-Sword. Later on when he returned to Otherworld, Goku arrived on the planet and while flying with his son and the two Kais to get some lunch he told Gohan that he’d show him how to go Super Saiyan 3. This was not shown on screen but it would have been interesting to see all the same.

According to Goku these are the 3 steps necessary to become a Super Saiyan 3:

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1. First turn Super Saiyan

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2. Then push to the level beyond that of a Super Saiyan which is an Ascended Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2

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3. The next power has to come from deep inside and you have to push hard to find it so you can break down the barrier necessary to fully transform

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4. Tap into that and you’ll reach Super Saiyan 3!

Super Saiyan 3 is more about Ki utilization than it is about raw emotion or training like the other 2 Super Saiyan forms. Which means that Gohan would have to look at something inside of himself aside from his rage in order to get to the hidden power inside.

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I think that Gohan did Step #3 when he unleashed ALL of his power to win the beam struggle with Cell’s Solar Kamehameha and completely destroyed the Android.

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Goku told him to release his full power to finally end the threat of Cell. My guess is that Gohan was in such a weakened state that he was not able to go Super Saiyan 3. During Goku’s flashback to the first time Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 he was only able to hold the form for a few seconds before passing out from exhaustion since the two had been training for like 20 hours straight!

Or as I pointed out before that the form did not exist yet…not just in the DB Universe but in the minds of the writers for the show.

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Gohan broke down the barriers that he placed on himself due to losing one arm after saving Vegeta from Cell’s attack. That caused him to believe that his Ki had dropped by 50% or more and why he was struggling with Cell’s Kamehameha Wave. However, despite breaking through those barriers he wasn’t able to access some hidden power because he had already released his hidden power by going Super Saiyan 2 in the first place!

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When he overpowered Cell, Gohan was just using the Ki that he thought had disappeared after his arm got blasted. To go Super Saiyan 3, it requires a Saiyan to look deep inside for a new power not a power that was already there. Goku kept telling Gohan that he already has the strength needed to defeat Super Perfect Cell and that it was just his own doubt that kept him from finishing the battle.

Top: Cell's Solar Kamehameha Bottom: Gohan's Father-Son Kamehameha

Top: Cell’s Solar Kamehameha
Bottom: Gohan’s Father-Son Kamehameha

Let’s say Gohan’s full power was not enough and even if he gave the Father-Son Kamehameha his 100% from the start, Cell’s Solar Kamehameha still had more strength. If Gohan looked deep for more power then I could see him going Super Sayian 3.

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That is because he would be looking inside himself for a power to break down the barriers of even his maximum hidden power (Super Saiyan 2). I mean Goku went to a 4x Kaio-Ken to overpower Vegeta’s Galick Gun so I can believe Gohan going Super Saiyan 3 to overpower Cell’s blast.

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Could you image it: Gohan’s power instantly increasing by 4 as a Super Saiyan 3? That would be insane his blast was already huge but to have it grow in size/power by 4?! Whoa and Cell said his attack could destroy the entire solar system, I couldn’t imagine the destructive force of a Super Saiyan 3 Father-Son Kamehameha!

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*In the Dragonball Heroes game (only in Japan), Future Gohan is able to go Super Saiyan 3.*

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There is an interesting theory about how Gohan’s Ultimate or Mystic powers are actually a representation of him as a Super Saiyan 3. The only difference is that none of the major physical changes are present in his appearance. By that I’m referring to a lack of eyebrows and the extremely long hair. Not to mention he does not have that huge drawback of his Ki being depleted rather quickly in his Mystic form.

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If Gohan went Super Saiyan 3 would it be weaker or stronger than his Mystic powers?

Honestly, I’d have to say that Gohan would be weaker as a Super Saiyan 3 compared to his hidden powers being fully unlocked by Old Kai. The reason I am saying that is because Super Saiyan 3 is 4x the power of a Super Saiyan 2.

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Goku and Vegeta at Super Saiyan 2 were more powerful than Gohan was as a Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta says that Goku was more powerful than Gohan was against Cell. Earlier when Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 for Kibito, Vegeta comments that he was a lot stronger 7 years ago when he fought against Cell. With that in mind, if Gohan did go Super Saiyan 3 he would be weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Super Buu who are both more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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It just seems that his Mystic powers transcend anything that he could ever achieve in his Super Saiyan forms.

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This diagram (click to make larger) basically spells out how Mystic Gohan is ALL of his power being utilized without the need of transforming. Add in Super Saiyan 3 on the chart on the left and it would just be another circle added while the Mystic/Ultimate one would still be the same.

If Gohan went Super Saiyan 3 I think it would come before his Mystic form. By that I mean that I don’t think while in Mystic form Gohan would just ascend to Super Saiyan 3. I think it is something that he’d do in his Super Saiyan 2 form.

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We’ve all seen Super Saiyan 3 Broly in the Raging Blast games. Some clarify that he is a Legendary Super Saiyan 3 based on his lack of pupils, hair color and massive size being traits similar to his Legendary Super Saiyan form. If Broly were a “normal” Super Saiyan 3, then he’d probably look a little something like the picture above.

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Compared to the form we see in the games, I’d say this would be a Legendary Super Saiyan 3.

In terms of Gohan going Super Saiyan 3 it would be a normal Super Saiyan 3 unless he goes Mystic Super Saiyan 3 or something but that idea just sounds ridiculous to me.

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In the movies Wrath of the Dragon and Battle of Gods, we see Gohan “power up” to his Mystic form. That is what I think would happen even if he did go Super Saiyan 3, he’d just “skip” over it like Gotenks did Super Saiyan 2 in order to go Super Saiyan 3. For Gotenks, he went Super Saiyan 3 because it was more powerful than Super Saiyan 2.

In my mind, even if Gohan were able to become a Super Saiyan 3 he would probably choose to use his Mystic powers instead. I’d say that because it is more powerful not to mention less of a strain on his Ki supply. That would be the more advantageous strategy for someone who claims to be smarter than Piccolo and tougher than Gotenks.

Can Gohan transform into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 while in his Mystic form?

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I’m going to be honest and say that I do not know why Gohan cannot transform into a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 in his Mystic form. My guess is that Old Kai pretty much brought ALL of Gohan’s powers to the surface. By going Super Saiyan, it increases his power 50x or 100x his base form depending on if he goes Super Saiyan 1 or 2. So with all of his hidden powers unleashed going Super Saiyan wouldn’t be useless it would just be unnecessary.

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Old Kai told Gohan to unleash his powers by “Doing that Super Saiyan-thing you always do…” meaning looking for the power deep inside him and bring it out to the surface. This sounds oddly familiar to what Goku told Goten and Trunks to do in order to break down the barrier between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3!

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Considering he was able to go Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods in order to help Goku reach Super Saiyan God, we can rule out the theory that he could NEVER go Super Saiyan again.

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And despite showing the ability to go Super Saiyan 2 in GT but never using his Mystic power, we can rule out DBGT as being a time where Gohan could have went Super Saiyan 3.

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I also don’t think that he could have gone Super Saiyan 3 against Broly mainly due to his serious lack of training (despite the training he was currently doing with Goten before the World Tournament) and as I mentioned countless times before the fact that he didn’t have a good handle over Super Saiyan 2.

So there you have it! I think his best chances of going Super Saiyan 3 was back in the Cell Saga mainly due to his polished training thanks to Goku and unleashing his full power but going Super Saiyan 2. Moving on to after his power up from Old Kai, I do think that he had the potential to go Super Saiyan 3 BUT it was unnecessary.

Do you think Gohan can could go Super Saiyan 3?