Dragonball GT: Who was stronger Super Saiyan 4 Goku or Great Ape Baby?

by Jeremy Carden

This is one of the long standing debates of Dragonball GT which begs the question which one of these 2 was the most powerful.

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If you ask me the battle between Goku and Great Golden Ape Baby Vegeta is like a seesaw in that the tables kept turning to the point that it is difficult to tell which of these two was actually winning.

There were multiple factors that came into play during their fight that makes me unsure as to who was more powerful;

  1. One of the most important being the size difference between Goku and Baby after he turned into an ape
  2. Baby losing slight control over himself as the Old Kai stated
  3. Bulma turning the tide of the battle in Baby’s favor with the Blutz Wave Machine
  4. Goku’s Ki being recharged by his sons, Trunks and Pan

And the list goes on as to how the battle went back and forth when it seemed like one side had the advantage over the other. To make things a bit easier to comprehend, I’ll go over what we do know about the battle between Goku and Baby.

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Well Goku was pretty much a mindless beast as a Great Golden Ape just thrashing around the Planet Tuffle. Even when Baby tried attack him it only resulted in him being smacked around until he decided to retreat in order to reach the same kind of power. It wasn’t until Pan helped him realize who he was and what he was fighting for that Goku snapped out of his animal instincts and reached Super Saiyan 4!


He was toying around with Baby at first letting him score melee attacks and Ki blasts which ended up doing nothing but make Goku retort that they only felt like a feather. Even a Revenge Death Ball (which was supposed to kill Goku in their first fight on Earth until Kibito Kai saved him) did absolutely nothing to Goku.


After letting Baby get his attacks in with no success, the gloves were off and Goku mopped the floor with the Saiyan/Tuffle!

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Just when Goku was able to kill Baby Vegeta with a Kamehameha Wave that was when the tide turned and Bulma’s Blutz Wave Generator/Machine transformed Super Baby Vegeta into a Great Ape.

Now Goku was shocked that his opponent whom he was about to kill had powered up and the tide of the battle changed.

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Well if Goku had gone ahead and killed him while he had the chance then it wouldn’t have ended up this way. Even Old and Kibito Kai said that he shouldn’t be toying around with Baby…

In any case, the battle started with Baby acting like well an ape. It was basically a repeat of Baby vs. Goku as an ape with him smacking Goku around. Baby spent most of his time rampaging like an ape reigning down destruction to his own planet and killing his own followers. People were screaming in terror at the Ki blasts and Flame Breath he was using on the city.

It wasn’t until later we discover that Baby was acting like an ape simply to act like an ape and to know what it felt like to be Goku; an out of control ape.


Though after Goku took the full force of a Super Galick Gun in order to save the Earth from blowing up, Old Kai mentions that the method of growing back his tail through the Blutz Wave Machine actually had a negative effect that was evident in Baby’s eyes and this caused Baby to experience fits of rage and a loss of control. The Saiyan instincts were taking over and Baby was fighting to keep his sanity. Even before being hit by the rays from the machine, he asked Bulma if he would be able to control himself because he only wanted to kill Goku not wreck his whole planet.


When Baby was about to finish off Goku he was shocked to discover that the 10x Kamehameha Wave was actually a latent attack in order to catch Baby off guard.


After that Goku and Baby knocked each other out cold!

So that was pretty much Round 1 of their battle and we really don’t know WHO was more powerful because knocking each other out generally means that they were more or less even.


One of the most impressive feats of the battle was Goku literally throwing Baby to the ground by grabbing one of his fingers. That is pretty powerful considering that Goku wasn’t emitting an aura showing that he was holding back power in that moment.

Right before that Goku was able to break out of Baby’s powerful grip by powering up!


So that might indicate that Goku was more powerful but the size difference between him and Baby prevented him from a quick victory.


Though I must admit that if Goku WAS more powerful than Baby why did he have to rely on a delayed Kamehameha Wave to distract Baby? If he could have emitted enough Ki to kill Baby once and for all (which I actually thought he did) then why didn’t he do it? I’m guessing because he couldn’t but that’s just my opinion.


When Bulma fires ALL the Blutz Waves being emitted from the Earth it not only revives Baby but it makes him more powerful and physically bigger than before. The negative effect that had on Goku was that his Ki was depleted heavily since the Earth was taking the place of the full moon and since all the Blutz Waves were being sent to Baby, Goku was getting weaker.


Baby was so powerful that just by giving out a roar he was able to destroy buildings and his power was felt by Trunks who was far off on another section of the planet flying towards the action after being freed from Baby’s control thanks to the Sacred Water.

Goku being out of energy was bluffing until Baby called it and was on the verge of killing him until Pan stepped in. Goten, Gohan and Trunks arrive on the scene and Goku asks for them to give him their Ki so he can become a full power Super Saiyan 4 once again.

Pan says that it IS the only way because before Bulma’s machine made Baby more powerful, Goku had that ape on the ground! Now here is the line that a lot of fans use as proof of Goku being more powerful;

Baby; “That little brat is right, I cannot let him power up again!”

This might indicate fear because if Baby was 100% confident in his new power then he would do what any other villain in the past would do and let his opponent power up seeing it as no threat; Cell did this with Gohan and Buuhan was willing to let Goku fuse with someone using the Potara Earrings but Baby was like Frieza and paranoid of the threat of a Super Saiyan or in this case Super Saiyan 4.

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From there he starts attacking the group to prevent them from giving Goku their Ki. Now here is where I figure that Baby was weakened. After recovering from the Solar Flare, Baby charged up a Super Galick Gun and prepared to kill the group before he is attacked from the inside!

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Majuub who was previously eaten by Baby after being hit by his own Chocolate Beam reverts to his human self and powers up inside of Baby’s digestive system crippling the giant ape. If you ask me I think that Majuub’s assault brought Baby’s power down. Seriously Baby was in severe pain as if he was losing a battle against extreme indigestion. After spitting Majuub out he attempted another Galick Gun to kill the Saiyans BUT it was too late…


Goku was once again at full power!!!


Moving on to the final round of their battle he and Goku fire Ki blasts at each other and pause with both panting very hard. This again shows that they were more or less on even ground. Even Gohan and Trunks comment on how they are more or less even with Gohan mentioning that Baby might have the upper hand since Goku had taken more damage only for Pan to say that Goku HAS to win this.


Now here is where things go wrong on Baby’s part; he starts throwing a temper tantrum making rash attempts at killing Goku. Back when Goku lost his first battle with Baby, he discovered that it was Baby’s weakness that he didn’t like being made fun of because he would throw a fit losing his cool. Goku did the same here mocking Baby saying that his Super Galick Gun probably would have hurt…if it actually hit him that its…


Baby fires a powerful Super Galick Gun which Goku dodges with ease and that just makes Baby angrier. He pulls off a rapid fire version of the Super Galick Gun that doesn’t even hit Goku but instead causing lava to emerge from underneath the ground causing a HUGE cloud of smoke where he finds cover for his final attack.


He charges up the Revenge Death Ball Final in an attempt to kill Goku once and for all. Goku doesn’t dodge but catches the blast but is pushed into a cliff where he is absorbed by the blast and feels the negative Ki breaking his body but his will and love for his friends and family somehow allows him to absorb the attack?

Yeah I’ll get into that later…

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From there he powers up a 10x Kamehameha Wave that knocks out Baby before blasting his tail off which forces him to revert back to his Baby Vegeta form and he exits Vegeta’s body in an attempt to escape the planet.


Goku waits until his ship is at the right angle and blasts him into the sun!

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Baby is fried to a crisp at that is the end of the Tuffle!

Alright so in the end Goku wins that battle with the Great Ape. The question still remains though who was stronger? I suppose that Goku as a Super Saiyan 4 IS more powerful but there is still room for debate as I mentioned above. There were a lot of factors that tipped the scales of this battle in Goku AND Baby’s favor with no true clear winner.


We don’t know how much a Great Golden Ape transformation multiplies a Saiyan’s power. The regular Great Ape form is a 10x power increase. Many fans say that the Great Golden Ape form is the “Super Saiyan of Legend” that Vegeta talked about in the Ginyu Saga. He even says that the Saiyan could only hold the form while in the Great Ape state. However, that is only in anime filler and never mentioned/seen in the manga so it is up to you as to whether or not you feel that Saiyan from Vegeta’s story IS the Great Golden Ape or aka the Super Saiyan of Legend. Well GT is non-canon so it is what it is and I’ll leave it at that.

I’ll be one to say that I do believe that the Great Golden Ape and the Saiyan from Vegeta’s story IS the same transformation. Vegeta said that the Saiyan was drunk with power destroying the planet he was on and as a result killing him.

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Goku was practically doing the same to the Tuffle Planet causing volcanic activity until he was reaching up for the earth showing that he had some memory of his “former self” which Pan helped him to remember.

In any case with some fans believing the Great Golden Ape form to be the “Super Saiyan” version of the Great Ape form some say that the form is a 50x increase of the base power just like a Super Saiyan transformation is. I GUESS this is a plausible theory because the Great Ape form is the true form of a Saiyan which is 10x the Saiyan’s power so if the Golden Ape is 50x that it would mean that Great Golden Ape Goku is 500x more powerful than base form Goku.

Super Saiyan 4 is 10x stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 meaning 4000x base power so…

Yeah it is really up to you to decide how you feel about that.

Great Ape Baby Vegeta was not just Vegeta’s power it was Baby’s as well. Keep in mind that Baby alone was not that powerful.

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Let’s see Baby had grown into a “teenager Baby” before taking over Vegeta’s body. He had gotten huge power boosts from taking over Goten and Gohan. Then he absorbed Ki from Trunks, Bulla, Gohan and Goten allowing him to transform into Baby Vegeta 2.

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Finally, he absorbs the Ki from the Earthlings-turned-Tuffles which was all negative Ki from their hatred of the Saiyans for the Revenge Death Ball which transformed him into Super Baby Vegeta.

So Baby Vegeta received 2 huge power ups prior to becoming a Great Golden Ape.

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And I believe the reason he wasn’t able to go Super Saiyan 4 even though he was “in control” of himself for the most part as a Great Golden Ape was because Vegeta wasn’t the one in control and Vegeta was technically a Tuffle and not a full blooded Saiyan. From what I can gather anyone who is not 100% Saiyan is not able to turn SS4. So Gohan, Goten and Trunks being 50% wouldn’t be able to turn SS4 which is ridiculous in my book.


Finally, going back to what I mentioned before; how the heck did Goku survive those Revenge Death Balls?

I kind of feel that the reason he was able to do so was because those attacks were not enough to destroy him. Either that or the fact that the attack is made of 100% negative Ki which is the exact opposite of the Spirit Bomb which is made of 100% positive energy. The reason Goku could survive it was because he is a positive being well at least in base and Full Power Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 1 he is pure of heart.

Now as a Super Saiyan 4 I don’t think he is but since this is GT I don’t know if the same rules apply…

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I’m going out on a limb and say that Goku was so powerful that the Revenge Death Ball and the Flaming Death Ball were not powerful enough to inflict major or any damage to him.

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But when in terms of the Revenge Death Ball Final that was complete bull! Goku was literally trapped in the center of the blast and was suffering from the attack. It wasn’t until he refused to lose for the sake of his loved ones was he able to overpower the attack and it literally seemed like he absorbed the attack somehow.

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Kind of like how he did Bills’ ultimate attack in Battle of Gods…just throwing that out there…

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I’m just guessing that his positive energy overpowered the attack like how SS4 Gogeta was able to use his own life force to transform Omega Shenron’s Negative Karma Ball into positive energy and that attack was 100% negative energy as well so let’s say that is the reason Goku was able to “absorb” or cancel out the attack.


So in the end Super Saiyan 4 Goku reigns supreme! Baby had to deal with his own temper tantrums, the psychological battle with himself and the Saiyan body he was controlling and a smaller/faster opponent. Goku had to deal with a larger opponent, Baby Vegeta was arguably insane threatening to blow up Earth which caused Goku to jump into an attack to save the planet, a huge loss of Ki thanks to Bulma’s machine and finally a beating from the Great Ape that almost killed him until he got his Ki recovered.

If Baby Vegeta DID go Super Saiyan 4 then who knows who the victor might have been…

Overall, I think Majuub did weaken Baby Vegeta lowering his power enough for Goku to more or less have the upper hand.

What do you think was Goku outright the most powerful of the 2 or did Baby have more power but was outsmarted by Goku?


Who would win Bardock or King Vegeta?

by Jeremy Carden

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My answer; Bardock BUT it depends on the circumstances

Bardock The Father Of Goku Part 1 5 Japanese HD 2

Now for this fight we are using Bardock from “Bardock: The Father of Goku” AFTER he receives the ability to see the future.

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As much as fans LOVE Super Saiyan Bardock he will NOT be used due to the no brainer of a victory that he’d get if I did use him for this fight

There are a few factors that MIGHT give King Vegeta the advantage if these two actually fought;

1. Bardock getting “distracted” during the battle with his random visions

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We saw during his battle with Dodoria’s Elite that Bardock’s visions come at random and distract him from a fight. That nearly got him killed but at the last second he was able to dodge a powerful strike to his chest to finish the elite off with an energy wave. One could argue that he would see a vision of King Vegeta’s next attack or something but his visions don’t seem to be that soon or current, they tend to be of the future in terms of important events rather than the fight he is experiencing at the moment.

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I could see Bardock having an upper hand in the battle only for one of those visions to come out of nowhere distracting him from landing an attack leaving him open for King Vegeta to retaliate.

2. Bardock’s tail being pulled rendering him powerless

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Now when it comes to his tail, I don’t think that Bardock’s is a weak spot anymore. To me he probably followed in the footsteps of the Saiyan elite (Vegeta, Nappa and most likely King Vegeta) and worked around his tail in order to “master” it like his son did so he would no longer weaken if someone did manage to grab it.

Another thing to consider would be whether or not King Vegeta would resort to that to defeat Bardock. Based on ranking it was a King against the Lowest of the Low in terms of Saiyan ranking but not power level-wise.


Bardock was possibly the 2nd strongest Saiyan (that we know of in the canon side of DB) not to mention he and his team were known not only among the Saiyans but by Frieza himself as a powerful team of soldiers taking on missions that some elites wouldn’t even take on and still came out alive.

If these two fought, I doubt that there would not be spectators. I mean it is the king vs. one of his subjects and I bet there would be people watching. Now, if Bardock was winning and Vegeta did have to resort to grabbing his tail, I don’t think he would do it. Why?

I know the Saiyans are barbaric by nature and being of a warrior race, fighting is in their blood. But if King Vegeta is even half as prideful as his son was shown to be, I don’t think he’d grab Bardock’s tail (if it did weaken him) in order to win. Saiyans grabbing each other’s tail is like two guys fighting and one kicks the other in the balls.

Double Galick Cannon to 2nd Form Frieza's back!

Double Galick Cannon to 2nd Form Frieza’s back!

Now if it was life and death and Bardock was about to kill Vegeta, he MIGHT grab his tail but simply out of pride I don’t know if he would. I mean his son isn’t one who is above shooting people from behind but I don’t think King Vegeta would grab Bardock’s tail or vice versa.

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3. As a Great Ape would Bardock be a mindless beast or in control of his actions?

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We know from the video games that King Vegeta is in control of himself as an ape. I know video games aren’t the best form of accurate information but as the king, I think he would be in control in order to lead assaults while transformed.

Does Bardock have control?

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In the beginning of the movie, he and his team fight as an organized squad because think of it this way; none of them attacked each other! They only destroyed the city and the people on the planet. The next morning they mentioned how they don’t remember anything as an ape and it felt like a dream only for one of them to say that Bardock remembers everything from every battle hinting that he does in fact retain his consciousness even while transformed.

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Now that we’ve gotten King Vegeta’s possible advantages out of the way, it is time to explain why I feel that Bardock would win. Honestly, these two are pretty much their son(s) battling in the Saiyan Saga.


Vegeta is the royal Saiyan full of pride in himself and his heritage

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While he is up against a low-class warrior who is beneath him in terms of ranking and in power…or so it would seem.

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Though with a thirst for battle thanks to the Saiyan blood flowing through him, he is able to overcome the odds and best even the best that the Saiyan race has to offer

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King Vegeta to me is like Frieza, Dabura or Cui; someone who has great power but rarely ventures onto the field of battle unless needed leaving them open for someone to exceed their power due to actually being out on mission and in battle getting stronger and learning new skills.


He is shown in a couple of flashbacks to be in some planet takeovers with some Saiyans and his son. To me it seems that he was actually showing his son the ropes and when Vegeta got to the point that he could take care of himself then King Vegeta would just go to his throne ruling his people while his soldiers did the work.

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When the scientist/doctor mentioned that Bardock was soon going to pass King Vegeta, that hints to the king only being so high over 10,000. I estimate he was around 12,000 or so because Vegeta’s max on Earth was 18,000 and he told Freiza later on during their battle that he had surpassed his father’s power even as a kid.

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Now, when he charged Frieza’s ship like a madman, he had to fight off 100s of henchmen and he did it like a boss!!

To me that rush of power even while in his heavily damaged state reminded me of later power ups from anger that his son and grandson would eventually do in the future; Goku and Gohan.

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True by ranking and blood, King Vegeta is the top of the class in terms of Saiyan power but think of it this way; Bardock might be a low class but like his son, he is no stranger to the battlefield, fighting against stronger opponents (willingly), doing whatever it takes to increase his skills and coming up with innovative strategies during battle to get the upper hand if overpowered or outnumbered.


Add that in with his desire to fight due to being a Saiyan and I think we have the makings of a fight that could knock the king off of his throne. However, like Goku turning down the offer to become Kami or join by Frieza’s side, I believe Bardock would do the same in NOT being king.

All hail King Bardock!

All hail King Bardock!

To him that would be like he was settling, it would not be the adventure that he craves to go out and fight against stronger adversaries making himself stronger and fulfilling his desire for battle. How could he do that while sitting on a throne?

Here that Vegeta? I could totally demolish you in a battle!

Hear that Vegeta? I could totally demolish you in a battle!

What makes you say that low-class?

What makes you say that low-class?

Pretty sure that Jeremy just spelled it all out...

Pretty sure Jeremy just spelled it all out…


*reads blog* Damn…

Pssst...like I thought

Pssst…like I thought

And that is why I feel that Bardock would be victorious in a battle to the death with King Vegeta.


Episode of Bardock; was Bardock responsible for starting the Saiyan race and evolving the Tuffle race?

By Jeremy Carden

Before I go into my theory as to why Bardock was possibly the being who started these two races, it is important to go over the history of the Saiyans and Tuffles first.

Keep in mind that King Kai, Baby, Vegeta and Dr. Raichi seem to have different versions of the story regarding the relations between the Saiyans and the Tuffle. Some differences are minor while some seem to reshape the entire story.

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Vegeta said that the Tuffles used the Saiyans as slaves.


Baby’s story seems to illustrate the Saiyan/Tuffle “war” ending quickly as the Saiyans arrived on the night of a full moon easily taking over the planet.

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King Kai and Dr. Raichi’s story says the war lasted 10 years with multiple battles taking place with the Tuffles managing to keep the Saiyans from complete domination and only ended with the Saiyans winning after a full moon (which occurs every 8 years) appeared in the sky.

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Here we go; in King Kai’s story to Goku, he tells him that there were 2 races on Planet Plant the Saiyans and the Tuffles.

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The Saiyans were a more violent and primitive race that lived in the outskirts of the Tuffle “city” in the caves and wastelands of Planet Plant.

The Tuffles were a much more advanced and peaceful society of beings. However, they were much smaller and fragile in terms of appearance compared to the much bigger and bulkier Saiyan race.

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It was only due to their weaponry and scientific genius that kept the Saiyans from taking over their city, wiping them out and dominating the planet. Though they were weaker than the Saiyans, they outnumbered them greatly. Until the night of a full moon…


*Note; Remember the Tuffles were the one who developed the Scouter technology. They also had blasters (I’ll get into that more below)*

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That was when the Tuffles were completely overrun by the Saiyans making them the dominant and only race on the planet. Of course in later series and movies, we learn that the Saiyans killed MOST of the Tuffles but some got away which kind of mirrored how Frieza would blow up Planet Vegeta in the future but some Saiyans survived for one reason or another.

He goes even further explaining that even though the Saiyan race was now the dominate race on the planet, their thirst for battle could not be quenched. The Saiyans yearned to venture out into the stars to find opponents to fight.

However, without the technology to do so they were unable to leave the planet. Or I should say they had the advanced technology of the Tuffles at their disposal but didn’t know how to use it.

At least not until sometime later, when they became more familiar with the technology and less barbaric but still had that desire to fight.

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It wasn’t until they were approached by the Arcosians were they first brought into the Planet Trade Organization. They were paid with money and technology to go to their planet and clear out the race for the Arcosians.

Why did I mention the Planet Trade Organization when it was the Arcosians who approached the Saiyans and not Frieza or someone else of the Frost Demon Race?

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Here is my theory; remember that Chilled and his men wore similar hooded cloaks when they arrived on Planet Plant in the past looking for the man (Bardock) who killed the two soldiers who came to the planet before claiming it in the name of Lord Chilled.

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Also remember that Chilled KNEW about the healing medicine on the planet. That could have been the reason he wanted to conquer the planet.

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This is similar to Frieza wanting the Kanassan planet due to the rumor of some psychic power.


Don’t you just love how all of this just seems to all come together especially when it involves Bardock?

Another thing to note is the Battle Armor. In King Kai’s tale and in GT, it wasn’t until AFTER they conquered the planet did the Saiyans start to wear the armor.


They probably got it from the Tuffles after the war or like many of Frieza’s men it wasn’t until they were drafted into the Planet Trade organization that they were equipped with the armor.

But in King Kai’s story, there was one Saiyan who shook hands with the Arcosian and he was wearing the armor which was probably given to him by the Arcosian himself either before the Saiyans cleansed the planet for them or after the victory had been won.

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You’ll notice in this picture, ALL of the Saiyans shown are wearing the armor. Along with the dead native on the Arcosian planet (most likely the race they wanted the Saiyans to destroy in order to cleanse the planet) and damaged buildings in the picture, it kind of shows that it was the Arcosian planet they were on at the time.

My guess is that in order to give extra protection to the Saiyans while fighting to help increase their chances of success, they were given the armor BEFORE the fight just for the advantage.

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During the war on Planet Plant all of the Great Apes were “bare” supporting that it was not until after the war and their meeting with the Arcosians were they given the armor. Remember that the armor is expandable even in Great Ape form and they didn’t have any on before just the clothes that they looked like they made while living in the wastelands.

Now, it is said that it was about one year after the Saiyans killed off the Tuffles that they were then put into Frieza’s empire for conquering planets. This further supports my theory that the Arcosians were a race that was either linked with the Frost Demons OR mentioned the Saiyans to the Frost Demons or more specifically Frieza.

I’m not sure how galactic gossip gets around but perhaps an Arcosian was talking to a being of another race and that was how the word about the Saiyans got to Frieza and any race that showed potential in expanding his empire was enough to get him to want them on his side.

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Frieza probably already knew about the Saiyans due to the Super Saiyan legend passed down from Chilled to him.

Getting killed by a Super Saiyan must hurt especially after you were warned about it...

Getting killed by a Super Saiyan must hurt especially after you were warned about it…

However, he probably didn’t think about it being nothing more than a mere rumor and wanted them in his employ; until later on when he discovered the Saiyans were soon growing not only numbers but in power as well.

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Alright, for anyone reading who is a Christian, I am not trying to disrespect the gospel by bringing it into this discussion; when you think about it Frieza was kind of like the Pharaoh of Egypt, fearful of an uprising due to rumors of a lesser race overpowering his throne.

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In order to avoid that, he made a decree that all Saiyans must die in order to snuff out the possibly of an uprising and the “deliverer” a Super Saiyan freeing them from the bondage of Frieza.

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In the Bible, Pharaoh decreed that all new born boys must die in order to prevent the “deliverer” emerging out of the slaves to free them from Pharaoh’s bondage.

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Also note in both scenarios it was an act put into place by the suggestion of the advisers of the ruler that kind of fueled their own paranoia about the situation.

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For Pharaoh it was his counselors.

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For Frieza it was his right hand men; Zarbon and Dodoria.

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Though later in Frieza’s flashback before transforming into his 2nd form, it seems that Zarbon didn’t think destroying them was necessary but went with it anything saying “Well I suppose you know best…”

Flashbacks can be inconsistent from time to time so I try not to take them that seriously.

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Of course in Frieza’s case Goku had escaped the wrath of the tyrant by being sent off to Earth before he destroyed the planet.

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He was AGAIN spared by Cooler who viewed from afar and noted that it was not his problem or job to finish Frieza’s sloppy work.

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Later on he came to regret his decision as he was being incinerated by the sun…

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Moses was placed in the river by his mother to avoid being killed.

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So, it is kind of like that theory of predestination or fate where what is meant to happen will happen no matter what you do or what extremes you go through in order to prevent what is destined to occur.

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In terms of the medicine that was used to heal Bardock, he notes that it is similar to the medicine in the Healing Chambers used by Frieza.

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Vegeta mentions that the fluid contains synthetic Saiyan DNA.

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This could hint about the Saiyan influence on the Tuffles, purple aliens and Frieza’s army. The medicine itself is said to heal injuries instantly. Saiyans get stronger after being healed from injuries or near-death experiences due to the Zenkai. This could be a reason why Saiyan DNA is also in the fluid medicine making healing faster and possibly making whatever being in the healing tank stronger than before.

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In terms of Attack Balls, it is hard to say where they came from. When Chilled’s 2 soldiers arrived on Planet Plant they were in a large ship that Frieza, King Cold and Cooler use in space travel. It seems that Attack Balls were not used by the Frost Demon Empire until after their encounter with the Saiyans.

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In some flashbacks, the Saiyans arrived on the planet by using these Attack Balls and then wiping out the Tuffles BUT since the Saiyans are barbaric by nature and not as intelligent as the Tuffles in terms of knowing how to use such technology it stands to reason that the Tuffles might have been the ones who invented the Attack Balls.


Well let’s discuss how it is possible that the technology used by Chilled and his men helped advance the people on Planet Plant.

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The first 2 henchmen used one of the giant spaceships to travel to the planet but were killed by Bardock meaning that their spaceship was still on the planet; before Chilled arrived he was traveling in one of the giant spaceships. It stands to reason that the ship he used to land on Planet Plant was still on the planet after he was blasted into space by Super Saiyan Bardock.

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I’m sure similar to King Cold finding Frieza in space; some of Chilled’s men tracked him  on radar and went to pick him up in another ship. So, as time went on the people on Planet Plant developed the technology into smaller ships called Attack Balls.

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From there after Frieza “took in” the Saiyans, he used the ships for his henchmen and opted to use the larger more elaborate spaceships for himself. In a business-sense (because really Frieza and his family are part of a business) it is more cost efficient and easier to make in large numbers as opposed to having a giant spaceship for every man in the army even when broken into smaller groups of the soldiers.

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How do I feel about the Super Saiyan God who appeared to stop the fighting but failed due to the form’s time limit?

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Since the new DBZ movie hasn’t been released in the U.S. (yet) all I’ve been able to learn from it is from movie summaries on Youtube or articles on different DragonBall websites, so I don’t know enough about the Super Saiyan God to really go into extreme detail.

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It stands to reason that there could have been pure-hearted Saiyans during the 10 year war who wanted the violence to stop. If I am right; it takes the energy of 5 pure-hearted Saiyans to make one Saiyan become the Super Saiyan God.


Does it have anything to do with Bardock?

Well I don’t think that Bardock was the Super Saiyan God of legend. Most likely because I think the events of the “Episode of Bardock” happened long before the Saiyan/Tuffle War. I know Saiyans can retain their youth to fight longer but I doubt they can live that long.

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To go even further, I think our first “look” or hint of a guardian/god who wanted to stop the fighting would have been the one King Kai mentioned in his tale to Goku about a guardian or Kami of the Planet Vegeta/Planet that saw what was going on and disapproved. He summoned a mass of meteors to destroy the planet.

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This was a HUGE inconsistency when it was finally revealed that it was Frieza himself. There could be 2 reasons why King Kai’s story involved a kami/god or guardian instead of saying that Frieza was the one to destroy the planet;

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  1. Like Supreme Kai, despite being an overseer of the universe (in King Kai’s case the North quadrant) he isn’t the “god” that his title suggests in that he is able to see all and know all.
  2. Remember how adamant, King Kai was when he told Goku not to fight Frieza and to avoid him at all costs when he was on his way to Namek?

Perhaps his reason for getting his story wrong by not saying that it was Frieza who destroyed the planet was because he didn’t want Goku going after him. I think that would be the only other reason aside from him not knowing about Frieza’s part in Planet Vegeta’s destruction.

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But wait what does this have to do with Bardock starting the two races?

It pains me to say that Bardock was the one who started Saiyan race because it makes my head hurt thinking about it. If he was really the one to do so, wouldn’t that mean somewhere down the line he was responsible for his own existence in the past?

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That is why I’m like John Stewart (Green Lantern; Justice League Unlimited) when I say that I HATE time travel because it leaves so many unanswered questions and endless speculation.

Since Bardock was the only Saiyan on the planet, how was he the one to start the race?

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Here is where genetics, evolution, breeding and your own opinion as to where the Saiyans came from come into play.

Genetics/breeding; now you are probably asking yourself, how did Bardock start the race when the only other race on the planet was those purple beings?


Think about Vegeta’s younger brother Tarble and the alien he married. We don’t know if they have kids so I can’t guarantee that those two can breed. We do know Saiyans can breed with humans thus creating Saiyan/Human hybrids.

You've gotta be kidding me...

You’ve gotta be kidding me…

It stands to reason that there is a possibly that Bardock could breed with those purple aliens.

In another post, I mentioned the possibly of those purple aliens being the ancestors of the Tuffle race. Now here is how I believe that they possibly have some Saiyan genes in them and how they figured out the art of war.


Notice the similarities between the purple aliens and the Tuffles;

  1. Both races are smaller than a Saiyan
  2. They appear to be peace-loving beings when compared to the Saiyans
  3. Both have “advanced” living conditions compared to the caves and wastelands that the Saiyans lived in, true the purple aliens didn’t have the technology of the Tuffles.

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However, keep in mind that if they were the ancestors of the Tuffles, then it is understandable that they didn’t have the same level as advanced tech and weaponry as the Tuffles in the days of their war with the Saiyans. The fact that they had housing and a civilization was what could have “evolved” into the city that we saw in flashbacks.


Wait, when do the Scouters and blasters that I mentioned before come in?

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Right now!

I’ve already talked about the healing medicine and the Chilled’s spaceship, so let’s move on to the blasters and Scouters.

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Remember that Chilled had 2 guys (with Blasters) come to the planet to conquer it but were killed by Bardock.

Bardock likes going for the neck

Bardock likes going for the neck

Then when Chilled himself arrived he had some soldiers with him (also with Blasters). In both cases, the soldiers used the blasters in order to destroy some houses and some of the planet. Bardock killed them all and it stands to reason that the blasters were still intact.

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After the events of Chilled’s failed assault, it stands to reason that the purple aliens (who were still peace loving) learned about the art of war. This is most likely due to Bardock. True he was their Super Saiyan savior BUT he or the aliens probably realized that they wouldn’t be able to rely on him saving them from threats all of the time.

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That is why they probably confiscated those blasters and started learning about advanced technology and from there created the Scouters in order to measure the power of their opponents for future battles and more advanced and powerful models of those blasters.

So, we now know the possibilities as to how the purple aliens possibly evolved into the more technically advanced Tuffles based on their encounter with Chilled and the technology brought to their planet.

The one main question is why do the Tuffles look human-like when compared to the purple aliens?

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My theory; Bardock

Let’s say that he had offspring with one or more of the purple aliens and from there generations passed and the purple aliens took on a more humanoid appearance. True Saiyan/Human hybrids seemed to have a drop in their Saiyan genetics as their offspring continued to reproduce with humans.

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Gohan was ½ Saiyan, Pan was ¼ Saiyan and Goku Jr. was 1/16 Saiyan. That is because as time went on the Saiyan hybrids had offspring with 100% humans decreasing the Saiyan gene as generations went on.

In terms of the purple aliens and Bardock, it is possible that the hybrids they created had inbreeding going on keeping the Saiyan genetics intact.

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This could attribute to the purple aliens (who might be the past versions of the Tuffles) taking on a more human/Saiyan like appearance in terms of skin color, hair, etc. yet some of them kept the same genetics in terms of their height being much shorter than an average Saiyan.

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You are probably scratching your head right now (like Gohan) asking; but wait why don’t the Tuffles have tails like the Saiyans?

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Well Saiyan tails are a recessive trait and if you remember the Punnet Squares from your middle school science class, you’ll now that detectable features like eye and hair color (or the purple aliens skin color) have around a 25% chance of being passed down from parent(s) to offspring if BOTH parents are a carrier for the trait.

Wait, what?

Wait, what?

Now the fact that Bardock was the ONLY Saiyan on the planet meant he was the only one (carrier) with a tail. If he did breed with one of the female purple aliens, that would theoretically decrease the chances of their child having a tail. It wouldn’t be impossible but very unlikely. The same can be said about the purple alien’s skin color because skin pigment is also a recessive trait like the Saiyan tail.

Which could support the theory as to why the Tuffles outnumbered the Saiyans (which I’ll get to below).

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Of course 100% pure-blooded Saiyans will have a tail at birth.

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When you break it down to Saiyan/Humans like Gohan, Trunks and Goten that is when the chances of having a tail begin to decrease as well.

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True, we never see Goten or Trunks with tails. We see Trunks as a baby but without a tail.

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We only see Goten as a baby in the ending credits of Bio-Broly but again we don’t see him with a tail.

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My reasoning behind this is that Trunks and Goten MIGHT have been born with tails because like Gohan (who was born with a tail) they were 50% Saiyan. There is a chance that they had them removed at birth since Bulma, Vegeta and Gohan knew about the Great Apes and probably wanted to avoid a rampaging ape tearing down their houses…(though it is stated that the writers of the show pretty much forgot about the tail by the time the Buu Saga came around).

The Saiyan/purple alien offsprings that had tails probably moved out on their own into the wastelands of Planet Plant while the “normal” Tuffles/Purple Aliens stayed in their city.

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Perhaps there was some kind of X-Men hatred going on like how Magneto hated humans due to being a mutant but still being a human himself in terms of genetics; he was just gifted with extra attributes.

The same COULD be said of the Tuffles/Saiyans; the more powerful offspring with tails (Saiyans) went off due to being labeled as outcast or something due to being different. This might be something that sparked the bad blood between the two races; resentment for being different.

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Not only that when you compare the Saiyans to the purple aliens and Tuffles they are scary when you think about it.

They were much larger, stronger and could easily put fear in the hearts of the timid Tuffles.

From there they could have inbreed creating 100% Saiyans since as I mentioned before as generations go on the genetics of one race will eventually diminish.

Going back to the Super Saiyan God legend, in terms of peaceful Saiyans remember that the Tuffles and purple aliens were peace loving beings. Just as the appearance of a Saiyan could have been passed down from their genes so could the personality traits of those aliens.


Also remember that Tarble was banished by King Vegeta because he was a peace-loving Saiyan who was not battle hungry making him a disgrace to the royal bloodline.


This could be another reason the population divided as time went on. Keep in mind that Bardock preferred to stay away from the civilization in favor of isolation in the caves/wastelands of Planet Plant.

Here is another piece of evidence that the purple aliens/Tuffles up and left their old town in favor of their more advanced civilization.

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Take note of the pictures, one is of the city we see in the Episode of Bardock.

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The other is the city in King Kai’s story in which the Saiyans inhabit the now deserted city from the one in the episode of Bardock.

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Notice the similarities in terms of building structure. I’ll wager that once the aliens learned about the technology to upgrade their living arrangements, they left their old city and the Saiyans decided to live there and the area surrounding it of course was desert wasteland.

Some of the offspring of Bardock and the purple aliens or some of those aliens in general could have decided to live in the area of the planet that Bardock inhabited. This could explain why the Saiyans were so few in number when compared to the Tuffles. That made them more barbaric compared to the more civilize purple aliens/Tuffles in the city.

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Of course, all of this could be proven wrong with this theory; Bardock’s only reason for going back in the past was to begin the Super Saiyan legend and nothing more meaning that the Saiyans didn’t originally come from Planet Plant but indeed came from another planet.

What do you think?