Dragon Ball Super: Will Goku and Vegeta Fuse?

By Jeremy Carden

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After watching Revival of F, I have a very strong hunch that Dragon Ball fans will once again see a Goku/Vegeta fusion!

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If you ask me, I think that Whis’ main goal in training the Saiyan duo is not only to help them perfect their fighting abilities as individuals, but to also make them understand that they need to learn how to work together.

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Whis pointed out that Vegeta is too tense and Goku is too carefree. The two are practically opposing opposites when it comes to fighting. Vegeta is the more brilliant fighter, but Goku is better when it comes to off the wall combat (a good fighter that does not go by the books, he is better at overcoming obstacles by thinking outside of the box).

I mean if you look at the times when the two actually worked together to defeat the odds, you have to admit that they make a very potent combo!

For a moment, forget about what is canon and what is non-canon. Think back to some epic moments within the Dragon Ball franchise when these Saiyans actually teamed up.

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The Return of Cooler was a movie where neither Saiyan could take Cooler on in his new form.

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When they put aside their differences, the team destroyed 1 Meta-Cooler robot (before 1,000 showed up). In the end, they overpowered the Big Gete Star achieving victory!

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In the anime-only battle with Buuhan, each Saiyan was getting wrecked by the “mightiest Majin.”

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Goku convinced Vegeta to use the Potara Earrings in order to save the universe, and Vegito was beating around Buu with ease!

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How about when Super Janemba was able to defeat Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta?

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They ended up creating Gogeta in order to send that demon back into oblivion!

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Finally, the threat of Omega Shenron proved too great for even a couple of Super Saiyan 4s to stop!

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Once again, fusion created Gogeta to stop another threat to the universe (though this time around; Gogeta did not get the job done…).

My point is that Goku and Vegeta are extremely powerful as individuals, but working together has proven that the two can overcome almost any obstacle in their way.

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I think Goku said it best when he was describing the Fusion Dance back during the Buu Saga. He said that a being created from the fusion would be capable of accomplishing feats that neither individual could do alone.

Don’t you think that Vegito and Gogeta fit that description perfectly? I mean whenever the Saiyans fused, it was because they realized that they did not stand a chance of winning against their opponent at the time as individuals. They had no other option but to fuse in order to defeat the odds with overwhelming power!

Now the question remains as to whether or not Goku and Vegeta will actually fuse in the Dragon Ball Super series.

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Originally, I thought that if there was a movie to follow Revival of F; the two would fuse again. You have to admit that the movie itself seemed like a setup in order for the Saiyans to realize that they need to work together in order to achieve the best results.

I mean they fought against each other instead of fighting together against Frieza, and the entire world was destroyed (until Whis reversed time) due to their unwillingness to work as a team!

At the end of the film, Goku mentioned that their battle with Frieza was proof that Whis was correct when he said that they should work together more. However, Vegeta scoffed at the remark about them working together. With laughter, Goku agreed that it would never happen.

Is that right?

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Considering that Champa, Universe 6 and the Super Dragon Balls will appear in the DB Super anime/manga; I think the two WILL fuse again!

Why?

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With 11 other universes out there that contain beings more powerful than Beerus AND Whis, the Saiyans will eventually come across opponent(s) too powerful for them to defeat alone.

Fusion would be their only option, and it will be their trump card in order to win against their foes.

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As I mentioned in another blog about Gogeta appearing within the DB Super series, I think that the two fusing would be their completion of their training under Whis.

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I feel this way because as I mentioned above, Whis is teaching the two how to overcome their individual weaknesses, and to also work together as a team.

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Considering that Lord Beerus could be defeated if the two worked together (Whis mentioned this), I think Goku and Vegeta teaming up would be a threat to even gods more powerful than Beerus from some of the other universes!

Whis seeing the two truly working together would be the icing on the cake (because we know how Whis and Beerus love to eat) to their training.

Fans are split as to which fusion would actually appear within the DB Super series. Some say that Gogeta will finally make an appearance, and others are strongly behind Vegito reappearing.

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The thing that gets me is when fans say that Gogeta CAN’T appear because he is NOT considered canon. Personally, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. True, his appearance in GT and Fusion Reborn were considered my most to be non-canon. However, the Fusion Dance itself IS canon because the technique appearance in the anime and manga.

Goku knows about the dance, and he would show it to Vegeta if necessary for them to actually fuse against an opponent. Of course, I am sure that he would object to it because of the prissy movements needed to execute the technique. He did perform an embarrassing bingo dance to save the planet from destruction. What harm could performing one little ballet dance (Fusion Dance) do?

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Think about how upset he was when he had to hold hands with Goku in order to teleport to earth using Instant Transmission! Although, I thought he could have just placed his hand on Goku’s shoulder or something, but I guess the writers wanted to make that scene as awkward as they possibly could.

In my opinion, I believe that Gogeta will be the one who appears in the DB Super series if the Saiyans ever fused.

Why?

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Do you really believe that Vegeta or Goku would want to do a permanent fusion (again)?

The only reason Vegito split was because of Buu’s digestive system breaking the Potara Fusion apart.

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In Battle of Gods, Revival of F and DB Super Episode 5, whenever fusion was mentioned it was a reference to Vegito NOT Gogeta. This is because Vegito was the only fusion between the two to appear in both the anime and manga.

Unless we see Vegito from one of the other 11 universes, I do not think that he will appear again. Perhaps there is another universe where they used the Potara Fusion, but for whatever reason they did not split apart.

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This is what happened in the DB Multiverse series because there was a universe where Vegito did not remove the barrier protecting him within Buu’s body. After escaping with the absorbed Z-Fighters, Vegito killed Kid Buu (and the fusion stayed intact).

I know that DB Super is changing some of the events of Battle of Gods/Revival of F, but it is still unknown whether or not the ending of DBZ anime/manga will be kept the same. I am not just referring to Uub appearing and then leaving to train with Goku.

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I am talking about Goku and Vegeta not being fused into Vegito because we see them as two individual Saiyans.

That is why I feel that if they do fuse, Goku and Vegeta would use the Fusion Dance to become Gogeta.

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Who is to say that the Kais couldn’t make special Potara Earrings that would allow a temporary fusion?

However, that would be like opening a can of worms in order to make Vegito show up again.

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Another possibly is that Whis (or another being) knows of a fusion technique that we have never seen before! There really is no clear understanding on where the story of DB Super is going because it has just started. I am really excited because of the revival of the DB franchise as a whole, and anything can happen!

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I could care less about which fusion appears because I love both Gogeta and Vegito. The one thing that I want to see more than anything is an opponent that makes a Goku/Vegeta fusion actually HAVE to use their full power!

Remember that Super Gogeta, Super Vegito and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta dominated their opponents with ease. We never got to see the full extent of their power, and that is something that a lot of fans would want to see at some point.

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Can you imagine the power and techniques utilized by a full power Gogeta or Vegito? It makes me excited because any awesome techniques from the series are almost always put into DBZ video games. Not to mention the possibility of a new Super Saiyan level!

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Which fusion do you think will appear in the future; Gogeta, Vegito or someone entirely new?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Z: Can Ultimate Gohan Turn Super Saiyan?

By Jeremy Carden

I love to write about the topics that Dragon Ball fans either debate about the most or rarely think about. In this case, I believe the topic of this blog is something that fans have been debating about since the Buu Saga was first released.

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The subject of this blog is about whether or not Gohan has the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form.

Let me start off with what some Dragon Ball sources have to say about Ultimate Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2. Daizenshuu 2 seems to be the primary source regarding the Super Saiyan transformations that Gohan is still capable of even after Old Kai’s ritual:

“Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan’s dormant power is bottomless. It also states that Ultimate Gohan is still capable of becoming a Super Saiyan, but even without utilizing the form he surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in power, if Ultimate Gohan was to become a Super Saiyan his power would likely rise to levels above even Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed).”

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Now I will give my thoughts on the above statement from the Daizenshuu, I agree that Gohan’s dormant power is essentially bottomless. This has been shown time and time again throughout the series.The second part of the statement is something that I also agree with because Gohan was easily able to beat up Super Buu.

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks on the other hand was more or less on par with the Majin, but he was not able to completely dominate him like Gohan did.

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As for the final part, I will say that I agree with a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan being able to surpass Buuhan. However, that depends on whether or not the Super Saiyan transformation would still raise Ultimate Gohan’s power 50 times over according to the Super Saiyan multiplier chart.

I mean we know that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest un-fused character in the series at that point during the Buu Saga. Could you image his power being increased by 50 with a Super Saiyan transformation, and potentially 100 times over with a Super Saiyan 2 transformation?!

I dare say that his power might even surpass that of Vegito if he had used any Super Saiyan transformation as Ultimate Gohan! However, that again is only based on whether or not the Super Saiyan multipliers would come into play with Ultimate Gohan going Super Saiyan 1 or 2. Honestly, I cannot really see why they would not be applied aside from plot purposes where Gohan was meant to lose to an opponent.

Here is another piece from Daizenshuu 2 regarding Gohan’s power:

“Ultimate Gohan can still transform further into a Super Saiyan, however, even without transforming his power still surpasses Gotenks. Ultimate Gohan is rarely shown transforming into a Super Saiyan form throughout his appearances, though he does when found as a necessity as seen in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods when he helped contribute to making Goku become a Super Saiyan God. Later, not keeping up with his training during Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’, he became a Super Saiyan when fighting Shisami and effortlessly beats him. Gohan going Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form was powerful enough as to where it concerned and made the newly empowered Frieza to attack and kill Gohan so his men could have a chance as Frieza himself says Gohan alone is more than capable of beating all 1000 men by himself. Gohan was brought back to life by Piccolo moments later.”

As you can see, the statement above is in reference to Gohan’s power from Battle of Gods and Revival of F.

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In the trailer for Battle of Gods, we saw Gohan powering up into a Super Saiyan (we assume Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan 2 due to lack of an electric aura, but the same can be said about Vegeta when he powered up without an electric aura in a rage over Bulma being smacked).

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During the actual movie, Gohan is powering up into his Ultimate form to battle Beerus.

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While the Saiyans tried twice in order to get Goku to the Super Saiyan God level, Gohan was a Super Saiyan in both attempts.

At the start of the film during the party, it appears as if Gohan was in his base form due to his appearance.

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When the gloves came off to fight Beerus, he powered up into his Ultimate form, and later into a Super Saiyan to give his dad power.

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It does not look like Gohan powered down from his Ultimate form before going Super Saiyan during the Super Saiyan God ritual. This is made apparent by his forelock hanging down, and comparing the lack of said forelock in his regular clothing.

You are probably asking yourself about Ultimate Gohan’s power as a Super Saiyan, and why he did not power up to that level to combat Beerus.

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The same can be said about Gotenks fusing as a Super Saiyan instead of a Super Saiyan 3 to combat Beerus, but I will get to that point later in the blog about how the writer’s plot trumps a character’s power.

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Moving to Revival of F (which takes place about 1 year after Battle of Gods), Gohan’s lack of training has caused his Ultimate form to lose power. True, Old Kai brought his hidden potential to the surface. However, due to no training to maintain that power; Gohan’s 100% power so to speak was much weaker at this point.

Don’t believe this could happen to someone who has their peak power brought to the surface?

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Remember that during the Cell Games, Gohan’s hidden power was brought out in the form of Super Saiyan 2. Due to 7 years of no training, Gohan’s power diminished and this was pointed out by Goku and Vegeta.

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How Ultimate Gohan’s power would decrease substantially due to merely 1 year of no training is beyond me, but that goes back to the power of the plot trumping the power of fan theories. Not to mention that Gohan said that he “thinks” that he could still go Super Saiyan implying that his power and lack of training was so serious that he might not even be able to power up like he used to.

Apparently in Revival of F, Gohan was fighting against Frieza’s army as Ultimate Gohan. I was shocked when I read about this, and this might have been due to Gohan’s new hairstyle that threw me off.

Seriously, I thought that was merely base Gohan easily fighting off Frieza’s soldiers. It is also important to point out that the Z-Fighters (Jaco included) were holding back. Even Frieza noticed that his army was so weak the “earthlings” were not even killing them, but only beating them up with ease despite being heavily outnumbered.

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Frieza was taken aback when Ultimate Gohan went Super Saiyan and took out Shisami in one blow. The power of Shisami has not been revealed, but some sources rank him around the power of Zarbon and Dodorai. This would put him around 22,000 or 23,000.

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However, that would make no sense considering he was fighting on par with Piccolo (Super Namek). Piccolo’s power had LONG surpassed 23,000, and he had accomplished that feat after his training on King Kai’s planet before he arrived on Namek and fused with Nail going into the 1,000,000 power level range.

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He had fought on par with Android 17, and further increased his power after a solo training session in the Time Chamber in preparation for the Cell Games.

I wrote a blog on my thoughts regarding Piccolo’s power during the Dragon Ball series, and you can read that here.

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During that point in the series (Revival of F), I would rank Piccolo at least around the power of a Full Power Super Saiyan Goku or Gohan from the Cell Games.

The fact that Piccolo was a bit worn out from fighting so many soldiers in my mind would not make him weak enough for a Zarbon-level opponent to be giving him a hard time!

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Not to mention that Ultimate Gohan would have to go Super Saiyan in order to knock him out!

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This just goes to show that the plot of Revival of F was meant to heavily lower the power of any character that was not Goku or Vegeta! It was almost as if I was watching GT again…

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However, not to get off subject with a rant, I think that Frieza was right to worry about Gohan’s power. Not only had he experienced that power firsthand when Gohan was a child, but he was right in assuming Gohan alone could have killed his army. A feat that I think Piccolo could have done as well if his power was not crippled by the writers…

You see if Gohan was in his base form (not Ultimate Gohan) fighting Frieza’s army, and had to take out Shisami by going Super Saiyan because by some way of writing his power was on par with Piccolo then it would have made sense.

Why?

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Piccolo is far more powerful than base Gohan, Goku and Vegeta because of his Super Namek fusion. Going Super Saiyan would have been the only way they could have beaten up Piccolo; I’m talking pre-Battle of Gods here folks.

Now for Ultimate Gohan to have to go Super Saiyan to beat this guy seems flat out ridiculous. I might have to write a separate blog about Shisami’s power because of how much nonsense that subject seems to gather.

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First form Frieza “killed” Gohan with a punch to the gut right after he had taken a Senzu bean showing that his new power was nothing to play with.

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I think that it might be safe to assume that even if Ultimate Gohan went Super Saiyan 1 or 2, he might not have been able to tangle with Final Form Frieza as his father did as a Saiyan beyond God.

Aside from the Daizenshuu, there is another source regarding Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan:

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“In Dragon Ball Z: Dokkan Battle, Ultimate Gohan (Resurrection ‘F’) is also able to further power up into a Super Saiyan 2 form.”

Despite being a video game, it is probably safe to assume that Super Saiyan 2 Ultimate Gohan is actually a reality.

At this point it seems clear that Ultimate Gohan CAN transform into a Super Saiyan 1 and 2.

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However, it is still made unclear why he never utilized this power before in order to defeat his opponents. I know most of you are wondering why he did not use this power in order to defeat Buutenks.

I mean it was mentioned above that a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan might have had the power to surpass Buuhan, and that would mean he could have killed Buutenks easily.

While Majin Buu was in the middle of transforming after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo, Gohan just stood there looking…not doing anything at all.

Goku who was watching from Supreme Kai’s planet through the crystal ball was yelling for Gohan to raise his power because Buu was once again changing.

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Did this mean that Goku knew that Gohan could raise his power higher even in his Ultimate form, or was that simply just dialogue pointing out the obvious for Gohan to not just stand there, but to prep for Buu’s more powerful form that was about to emerge?

I think it is pretty clear that if Ultimate Gohan even went to Super Saiyan 1, he could have killed Buutenks and that would have been the end of the Majin threat.

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Akira Toriyama stated that his original plan was for Ultimate Gohan to be the one to kill Buu, and become the hero of the universe once again as he had during the Cell Games. However, due to Gohan’s personality, Toriyama did not really see him as the one to be mankind’s sworn protector.

That role seemed to fit Goku’s personality more, and though I hate to admit it…he has a good point about that.

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Despite the “logic” of Ultimate Gohan clearly being the one to defeat Buu, Gohan would have most likely gone back to school and lived a normal life. Goku on the other hand would simply train to get more powerful for his own satisfaction, but also to save his earth from future threats.

In a series based on a hero who would save mankind from present and future threats, it would make more sense for Goku to be the one to kill Buu. However, in terms of power and who could have gotten the job done the easiest, that would have been Gohan hands down (or Vegito for that matter).

With that being said, it appears that if Akira allowed Gohan to go Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form, it would not have been the best move for the overall plot. This could be why Ultimate Gohan was simply fighting in his “base form” against Majin Buu.

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This could all go back to Old Kai’s ritual and what it actually did to Gohan’s power. If you ask me, it was very similar to Guru’s method of releasing a being’s hidden potential. Of course, his ritual was much faster than Old Kai’s.

Guru would simply place his hand on the person’s head, and their power would instantly be released.

Old Kai’s ritual seems to last longer if a person has tremendous hidden potential, but does not last as long for someone with little to no massive power buried deep within them.

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I think that both hidden power rituals did the SAME thing to Gohan’s power; bringing his hidden potential to the surface. However, this did not mean that Gohan’s power could not be increased through training and Zenkai boosts.

Gohan’s power seems to be essentially bottomless, and with Zenkai boosts due to his Saiyan blood, Gohan’s strength can and will increase regardless of his hidden power being brought to the surface.

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His power was around 1,500 when he first arrived on Namek, and was over 10,000 after Guru released his hidden potential.

During his battles with the Ginyu Force and Frieza, Gohan’s power increased dramatically! With Zenkai boosts from being healed with a Senzu Bean and Dende’s healing power along with his fits of rage; Gohan’s strength skyrocketed into the millions. This was proven when he had 2nd and 3rd form Frieza on the ropes!

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With that being said, Guru brought Gohan’s hidden potential to the surface that he possessed at that point in time. This created Gohan’s new “base form” so to speak.

Old Kai practically did the same thing with Ultimate Gohan being Gohan’s “base form.” Gohan could further raise his “new base form” with his Super Saiyan transformations if he needed to…like he could and should have done against the likes of Buu, Beerus and the newly revived Frieza.

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Remember what Old Kai said to Goku prior to him going to earth to use the Potara Earrings with Gohan (but instead used them with Vegeta)?

He told Goku NOT to fuse as a Super Saiyan because that form is not natural and causes a strain on the body. This would shorten the fused being’s life if he were created through a Super Saiyan fusion. Old Kai further states that due to the Potara Fusion being so powerful, going Super Saiyan could be done AFTER fusing but it would most likely NOT be necessary.

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Compare this to what he told Gohan about unleashing his new power; Old Kai said to “do that Super Saiyan thing that you always do.” Old Kai always seemed to use double-talk or give a double meaning behind his dialogue. He most likely was saying that Ultimate Gohan’s power would be sufficient against any opponent and going Super Saiyan is something that could be done but would most likely not be necessary.

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This makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, and it could indeed prove that Ultimate Gohan was practically base Gohan with a new power and attitude! His Super Saiyan transformations were practically a bonus but not a necessity due to Old Kai being confident about his ritual and other power up methods that the ways of a temporary power up like a Super Saiyan would not be needed at all.

Not to mention Ultimate Gohan does not have to suffer from physical strain or substantial Ki drain as he would have through Super Saiyan transformations (unless you exclude Full Power Super Saiyan, but even then the form is not something that would last forever like a base form would because it is not natural).

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For the most part he was right because Ultimate Gohan beat down Super Buu (prior to becoming Buutenks). Furthermore, Vegito was able to take down Buuhan will little effort in his base form (anime only).

If you ask me, the question about Ultimate Gohan going Super Saiyan is very similar to Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “base form” taken on by a Saiyan that had absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God. This essentially means that Saiyan beyond God Goku is just as powerful as Super Saiyan God Goku, but without the time limit that the Super Saiyan God form suffers from.

This mirrors Ulimate Gohan being on par it not more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3, but without the Ki drawbacks that the form possesses.

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A Saiyan beyond God and Ultimate Gohan can essentially raise their power through Super Saiyan transformations, but the question remains if a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan is 50 times more powerful than Ultimate Gohan or a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times more powerful than a Saiyan beyond God due to that “base form” practically being the same power as a Super Saiyan God.

Until we get the official power rating from Akira himself, I doubt that this subject will ever have a decisive answer. However, it is always fun to speculate about it. Although it gives me a massive headache just thinking about it, but this blog had to be written.

Overall, this was a topic that I had never thought about until I read some new sources regarding Revival of F. In GT, I was thinking that Ultimate Gohan was no more due to lack of training or the writers not including him in the series. Gohan instead would go Super Saiyan 2 in all of his battles.

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Despite Ultimate Gohan being able to increase his power through Super Saiyan transformations, Akira practically ignored this in Goku’s favor so that he could be the hero. Again, it goes back to Super Saiyan 1 or 2 Ultimate Gohan being able to take down almost any foe, and that would have made it difficult to write an opponent powerful enough to take him down.

What do you think about this theory? Could Ultimate Gohan truly go Super Saiyan 1 and 2? If so, how powerful would he have really been?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: When Will The Series Take Place?

By Jeremy Carden

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With all of the leaked information about the new series, fans are very confused about when the series will take place. Originally, it was believed that Dragon Ball Super would take place after the events of Revival of Frieza.

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However, with recent pictures and chapters from the DB Super manga, it appears that this is not the case. Fans are even speculating that DB Super will erase Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza off of the map due to an inconsistency involving Beerus and his premonition of a Super Saiyan God!

Again, this is all speculation, and this blog is going to cover my own personal thoughts as to when this series will take place. Not only that, I will mention my own opinions on where the series will go. We do know that it is going to be at least 100 episodes, and possibly more depending on how well it is received by fans.

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Overall, I feel that this series will recap the events that occurred between the defeat of Kid Buu and the movie Battle of Gods. From there, it will cover the events between Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza.

Afterwards, it will cover the events between Revival of Frieza and Goku leaving the 28th World Tournament with Uub.

What I would love to see is the series going even beyond that like GT did!

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Something that could really throw things into perspective is the special released in Japan called “Yo! Son Goku and his friends return!” This is the anime special that introduced us to Vegeta’s brother named Tarble.

Here is what the time frame between Kid Buu’s death and Uub leaving with Goku looks like based on the original dates given in the Japanese version:

  • The short film about Tarble took place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu
  • Battle of Gods took place 2 years after “Yo! Son Goku”
  • Revival of Frieza occurred 1 year after Battle of Gods

This means that there are still 5 years for the writers to play around with before the anime episode called “Granddaughter Pan.” In this episode, we see the series fast forward 10 years from the death of Kid Buu.

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In the end, the biggest question raised by fans is whether or not the ending of DB Super will stay true to the original ending of DBZ. Goku leaving with Uub occurs 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu.

Let’s say that DB Super, Revival of F and Battle of Gods fit into the continuity of events that leads up to Goku vs. Uub. Re-watching that fight, it is amazing to believe that young Uub is holding his own with Goku (who by that time had achieved Super Saiyan God, Saiyan beyond God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and possibly even more power!)!

However, keep in mind that Goku was clearly holding back in that fight in order to test Uub’s abilities.

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Not to mention that similar to Tien’s Neo-Tri Beam against Semi-Perfect Cell, he was putting up an impressive feat by holding back Cell, but that was all he was doing. He wasn’t damaging Cell, but he was holding him off from absorbing #18.

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I think the same can be said about Uub during his fight with Goku because the Majin-turned-human was putting up a good fight, but it was clear that the only damage he inflicted on Goku was on his clothes!

Well, at the beginning of the fight he did make Goku’s arm tingle with a fierce kick. However, Goku underestimated Uub’s power, and remember Whis told him that letting his guard down makes even a body as powerful as his susceptible to damage from weaker opponents.

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Sorbet’s Ring Laser proved that point to be true when he pierced Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku’s heart!

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I actually think that Goku leaving with Uub would be even more touching since Whis (the Supreme Being) in Universe 7 ended up training a low-class Saiyan to become one of the best in the universe. This is like Goku sharing his skills with a young Indian boy from a poor village. The most unlikely people ended up learning from the best in the universe!

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However, I would still like DB Super to possibly continue even after Goku leaves with Uub so we can see what happens next!

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When you think about it, 5 years in DB time is not really that much. Keep in mind that the 3 years of training for the battle with the Androids was shown in a couple of episodes, but “skipped” in a single episode! Compare that to the “5 minutes” for Namek to explode, and that was stretched out for around a dozen episodes…

DB Super is going to be doing some obvious time jumps, but I think it will be worth it. I am one of those fans that love to see things being covered and explained instead of skipped over.

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Ever since I saw the picture of Gohan and Videl on their wedding day in Granddaughter Pan, I wanted to see those two being hitched! In the first episode of the new series, we learn that Goten is going to be looking for a gift because his brother’s wedding is happening soon.

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Based on Goku’s outfit while he is farming, I have a suspicion that Tarble will appear, and then we will jump to the events post-Battle of Gods. In the leaked manga chapter, we see Goku farming, Mr. Satan arriving with 100 million zeni for him, and Goku telling Goten that he wishes he could train with King Kai.

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In the Tarble special, Goku asks Chi-Chi why they have to farm despite the fact that Mr. Satan had given them a ton of money. His wife explains that despite the money, they should still work to earn their own form of financial stability. I find that interesting because it was Goku who fought to save the universe from Buu (along with help from his friends of course), and Mr. Satan was returning the favor because he thought Goku deserved something out of it!

Also in the special, Mr. Satan invites all of the Z-Fighters to his new hotel opening in honor of him defeating Buu. Here is where we reach a form of contradiction from the main series.

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Remember that 4 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, Goku had Shenron erase the memories of Majin Buu from the minds of earthlings so Good Buu (Fat Buu or Mr. Buu) could live a peaceful life on earth.

The only way I could see the world still worshiping Mr. Satan would be for them to praise and award him during the 4 months between Kid Buu’s death and their minds being erased. They must have had plans for the hotel along with the other awards for him, but after the mind wipe it seems clear that they gave it to him anyway (despite not knowing what threat they were saved from).

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Another thing to mention is the fact that Tarble was mentioned in Battle of Gods by Bulma. They were looking for a fifth Saiyan to help in the Super Saiyan God ritual, but they could not find one. Vegeta mentioned that his brother is in another star system, but he did not know which one.

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This most likely means we will indeed see everyone meeting Tarble in the first part of DB Super.

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Not to mention we see Goku training on King Kai’s Planet in the new trailer, and this was also seen at the beginning of Battle of Gods. My guess is Chi-Chi loosened the chain on Goku since Mr. Satan gave them all of that money, and he was allowed to do some training.

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Now let’s talk about Beerus’ premonition about the Super Saiyan God possibly erasing Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza out of the picture. Above is a photo from Chapter 1 of the DB Super manga, and it has driven fans insane!

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Beerus is on some alien planet, and he is having a feast. After revealing that he knew the inhabitants had poisoned his food (with no effect on him at all), he blew up their planet. He then talks to Whis about his dream about an opponent that would entertain him known as a Super Saiyan God.

Apparently, Beerus had just awoken from his 39 year slumber and was still a bit tired. Whis then suggests they go to their home world so he can remember his dream better.

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I thought that the Oracle Fish would be the key to the timeline. Why? Remember according to Beerus, it was the fish that told him that a Super Saiyan God would appear to give him a good fight and rival his power. He said that he would appear in 39 years, and that was why Beerus woke up “early” from his slumber because of the premonition from the Oracle Fish.

Again, it depends on the translation from the dub and manga because the Oracle Fish’s prophecy differs. One says that the fish foretold of the Super Saiyan God, but the other says that his prophecy was only that an unnamed opponent that would eventually become a rival to Beerus would appear. Then it was during a dream Beerus had while sleeping for 39 years that revealed the identity of his rival; a Super Saiyan God.

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Originally, I thought this scene from the manga would be Beerus thinking about the prophecy the fish told him, he would sleep 39 years after Whis takes him home, and then he would reawaken during Battle of Gods.

However, seeing Old Kai and Kibito Kai in the last panel shot that theory apart…

Overall, it is inconsistent that Beerus apparently woke up earlier in DB Super than he did in Battle of Gods. I do not think that this one little thing will erase that movie and Revival of F from the continuity. It could be that Akira is simply changing things up a bit for something just a little different.

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I do find it interesting that in the beginning of Battle of Gods, when the Kais sense Beerus’ awakening, there is a wide shot of a distant galaxy, and what appears to be the remains of a destroyed planet.

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After that, we see that Old and Supreme Kai were watching the events unfold. Could those floating rocks in space be the remains of the alien world that Beerus destroyed in the DB Super manga, or were they simply just asteroids floating in space?

Just something interesting to think about…

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Finally, I will simply talk about what I think will happen in the series. It has been revealed that a new character named Champa and a female-looking version of Whis will appear on Beerus’ planet.

Apparently he is also a God of Destruction, and he could be from one of the 11 other universes in the DB world.

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When he appears in DB Super has not yet been revealed, but my guess is either before Battle of Gods or after Revival of Frieza.

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I think it would be interesting for the series to allow us to see some of the 11 other universes. Considering Goku and Vegeta’s power is growing at an impressive rate, it seems clear that they may soon surpass Beerus with their individual power.

Not sure how long it would take for them to ever pass Whis, but at some point I think that they will. Regardless as to whether it is through them working together or fusing. Since the series is set to be 100 episodes (and maybe more), I have no doubt that other gods from the other universes will appear! Beerus even said in Battle of Gods that some of those universes spawned beings that were more powerful than he and Whis.

We all know that Goku thrives for fighting more powerful opponents, and Vegeta will not allow himself to be outdone by that low-level clown!

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Could DB Super be similar to the web comic DB Multiverse, and we will see a huge tournament between other DB universes?

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Either way, I think that the series has a lot of potential, and I am looking forward to it. I really hope that it is not like GT because I want all of the characters to shine in DB Super! GT was pretty much “Goku Time” and made everyone else weak.

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In DB Super, fans fear that with opponents like gods and other powerful beings, Goku and Vegeta will be the ONLY ones who have a chance to oppose them.

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This means that everyone else in the show like Super Gotenks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan would not stand a chance. Given their performance in Revival of Frieza (minus Gotenks)…this might be the case.

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I want to see a teenage/adult Gotenks, Piccolo reaching a new level of power, and Gohan not being written to be a weakling when he is one of the most powerful beings in the universe!

There are so many twists and turns that this new series can travel down, but I will remain a fan and view it! I do not want to be one of those fans who give the series a thumbs down before it even airs because I want this to be great. The main reason for the series being revived is because of its popularity that is being kept alive by the fans.

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With that being said, what do you think about this theory? How far will DB Super go? Will it continue up until the end of DBZ when Goku leaves with Uub? Will this erase the final 3 episodes of DBZ completely, and create something new? Do you think we will see the other 11 universes?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Z: Did Whis Create Kid Buu?

By Jeremy Carden

I have been puzzled by this question ever since I watched Battle of Gods, and read an article about an interview with Akira Toriyama regarding Majin Buu’s origins.

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When asked about Buu’s origins, Akira said this:

“Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.”

I was surprised by this information because it adds an entirely new dimension on how Buu came to be the Majin that fans know best.

Now, it is time to get down to the theory itself on how Kid Buu might be connected to Whis.

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Originally, I thought that Whis was the God of Creation because Beerus was the God of Destruction.

However, this was not the case because Akira actually stated that it was the Supreme Kais who were responsible for the creation of planets, and Beerus was the being responsible for the destruction of planets and star systems.

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King Kai told Goku that both forms of life are needed in the universe in order to maintain balance.

Alright, so it has been established that the Supreme Kais and Beerus are more or less responsible for different roles in the universe to balance things out, and Whis is pretty much the supreme being above all else in Universe 7 (the universe that we know of from DBZ).

What does this have to do with Kid Buu?

Based on Akira’s origins for the character, Buu seemed to have come out of nothingness. You might compare Buu to the Big Bang Theory, and how the universe came from an incredible explosion that seemed to have come from nowhere. However, something had to have triggered that big bang, and I am thinking that the same could have been true about Buu’s existence.

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My theory is that Whis created Kid Buu BEFORE the role (or job) of “God of Destruction” was a position that existed in Universe 7.

Buu does not have a date in which he came into existence, and it was mentioned that he has existed since time immemorial. This means that Buu is so old that it is almost generally accepted (or hinted at by Akira) that Buu has existed since the dawn of time.

Let’s say that Whis created Buu, but where did the Kais come from?

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Akira said this when asked about how one becomes a Supreme Kai (supposedly the highest status in the universe):

“No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their life spans are about 75,000 years.”

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Considering the life of a Supreme Kai is around 75,000 years, it could mean that Buu was pretty much close to being an immortal because there was only 1 of him.

However, it also makes sense that there would be multiple overseers of the universe because of different quadrants. That is where East, North, West and South Kai come into play.

Think of it like this:

The Supreme Kais are the Gods of Creation and oversee both the living and other world. The lower Kais (King Kai and his 3 counterparts) guard and oversee the living world.

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Does it seem fair that there is only one being on destruction (Buu), but there are multiple Kais who have the ability to make worlds?

Something tells me that 1 creature of destruction was enough, and the Kais probably were not making planets just for the sake of making them. I am sure that Whis might have had some word in how much could be created, or felt that Buu was more than enough to keep the planet total in check.

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Anyway, I think the most interesting part of Akira’s description of Buu was the concept of Buu not being the evil maniac that we saw in DBZ.

He describes Buu as cycling between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent.

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This sounds very similar to the origins of the Original Nameless Namek! Remember that he arrived on earth due to the storms on Namek that were on the verge of destroying the entire planet. However, the storms ended after the Namek was sent to earth. He waited years and years for his people to follow him, but they never came. During his time on earth, he watched the evilness of mankind and slowly began to adapt those traits in his personality.

From there, the Namek eventually had to surrender the evilness in his heart (that was “born” through his interactions and visuals of mankind) in order to become Guardian of the Earth.

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That was how Kami became the good-hearted overseer of Earth, and the pure evil King Piccolo came into existence.

Again, this goes back to Buu’s origins! He was a being that seemed to be created for nothing more than destruction that resulted from his rampages.

Similar to the Nameless Namek, it seems that during his rampages, Buu picked up characteristics from mankind (apparently the worst traits); sadistic, murderous, insane and other negative aspects of the living.

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Not to mention that like the Namek, Buu eventually split into a good and an evil half.

I will touch on this more when we eventually get to Buu coming into contact with the wizard Bibidi.

It appears that Buu was a being that helped to keep the balance between creation and destruction in check. This sounds very similar to the role of “God of Destruction.” After those long rampages, he would go into his ball for a long duration of hibernation.

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This mirrors the pattern of Beerus because he destroys planets as a way of making sure that there is balance in the universe, but then goes into long periods of hibernation. Whis is there to keep Beerus in check, and appears to keep the purple kitty from needless acts of destruction.

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Now we will throw Bibidi into the equation! Originally, it was believed that this midget wizard was the one responsible for creating Buu. On the contrary, Bibidi knew of the spell that could release Buu from his ball during his hibernation cycle to recharge his batteries so to speak.

From there, he turned Kid Buu into Majin Buu. The pink powerhouse was no longer a natural universal tool for balance. He was now a minion for an insane wizard. It is true that Bibidi did not have full control over Buu, but he was using him for his own means.

Galactic domination was the goal of Bibidi, and with Buu’s power at his disposal; he could have achieved what he was trying to obtain.

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First off, the Supreme Kais were on his hit list. We all know the story of how Buu killed the North and West Supreme Kais.

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After that, Buu absorbed South Kai and the Grand Supreme Kai. This resulted in Kid Buu becoming the Buff and the Fat Majin Buu that we saw when he was released from his ball during the Majin Buu Saga.

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We also know that the Eastern Supreme Kai eventually became the Supreme Kai that oversaw the entire universe.

It is not mentioned when the “lower Kais” were born, but I wager that those Kais (King Kai-level Kais) came into existence after Buu absorbed and killed the Supreme Kais.

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That seems to make the most sense considering that Supreme Kai would have been the only Kai alive to do the job. King Kai and his 3 other counterparts could have been born to oversee the lower realm to assist Supreme Kai. They may have also assisted with planet creation as well.

Of course, this is just my own personal speculation of it all, but it interesting anyway you look at it.

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Let’s backtrack to when Old Kai was trapped inside of the Z-Sword because I think it adds another interesting piece to the possible connection between Buu and Beerus.

Akira said this about Old Kai:

“The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.”

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When he was released from the sword, Old Kai mentioned that there was a terrible villain that trapped him inside of the sword. This being was jealous of his awesome magical capabilities, and he tricked Old Kai!

The dialogue that caught my attention was that “this villain” was not as terrible as Majin Buu, but still pretty bad!

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As mentioned above, this “villain” who trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword was none other than Beerus!

Old Kai’s statement could imply 1 of 2 things:

  1. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because at that point in time, Beerus may have not been as powerful as Kid Buu.
  2. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because he was not an insane destroyer. He had some reasoning and sense of right/wrong. Though he has short tempter, and will destroy a solar system when angered, Old Kai might not have seen Beerus in the same realm of “evil” as Buu.

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Wait, how could the God of Destruction potentially be weaker than Kid Buu?

Considering that Buu was possibly in existence since the beginning of time, it makes sense that Old Kai during his time (15 generations ago when compared to the Eastern Supreme Kai-turned Supreme Kai) knew of the terrible evil menace rampaging around the universe.

We do not know the origins of Beerus, but I do not think he was always the all-powerful being that we saw in Battle of Gods. Keep in mind that I think he was selected by Whis to become the God of Destruction, but during his initial acceptance of the job, he may not have been all that powerful.

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Maybe there is some kind of ritual that takes place that allows one to become a God of Destruction just like there is a ritual for a Super Saiyan God to appear.

After Beerus became a god, Whis became his fighting instructor and overseer. He might have taught him in the ways of combat, but Whis was still unable to teach Beerus to control that temper and sense of entitlement.

Similar to Ying and Yang, it makes sense that the Gods of Creation and the God of Destruction would not get along. I wonder what kind of argument caused Old Kai to be trapped in the Z-Sword.

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Depending on what dub you watched, Beerus destroyed King Kai’s once huge planet due to losing a video game or playing hide-and-seek. That was why King Kai’s planet was so small when we first saw it in the Saiyan Saga.

With that being said, I am sure that Beerus got enraged over nothing. That was how the Old Kai was trapped. Old Kai said that he was 15 generations before Supreme Kai. Considering that each Supreme Kai has a lifespan of about 75,000 years that means that Old Kai was possibly trapped in the sword around 1,125,000 years before he was released! I got that number by simply multiplying 15 times 75,000.

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In terms of power, we know that Kid Buu is on par with a Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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At the beginning of Battle of Gods, Beerus defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a pluck to the forehead and a karate chop to the neck.

I think that it goes without saying that Beerus is in an entirely different realm of power than Kid Buu!

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It all goes back on how you interpret the Old Kai’s statement of Beerus being less terrible than Buu. Whether it was in regards to his power or temperament is all based on perspective. This is very similar to the fan interpretation of Old Kai comparing the Fusion Dance to the Potara Earrings.

Maybe Beerus was powerful, but not Kid Buu-level in terms of strength during the time when he trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword?

Again, that is left to speculation…

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In any case, I think this theory can be summed up by Bibidi’s spell over Buu. I think that if Whis was truly the one who created Buu, he did so with the intention of Buu hibernating.

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Do you really think that Whis would create a being that would rampage endlessly throughout the universe without giving it an off switch? I don’t think that he would, and that is why I think Whis created Buu with his batteries needing to be recharged through hibernation in his ball.

Considering that Beerus isn’t immortal because Whis offered Goku the position of God of Destruction after Beerus eventually died, I think it is safe to say that Buu existed before Beerus.

Another possible scenario is that Buu and Beerus had hibernation cycles that occurred at different times. Perhaps Beerus would be sleeping while Buu was rampaging, and vice versa.

The flaw in that theory would be an endless cycle of destruction that would occur because of 2 powerful beings…

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Not to mention that Beerus considered 39 years of sleeping as nothing more than a catnap. I think Buu’s hibernation cycles were extremely longer than that. However, when Bibidi (and later Babidi) got Buu under one of his spells, Buu would not hibernate for long. He was sealed up whenever Bibidi felt that Buu was slipping out of control or when he needed to rest.

Perhaps Whis felt that as long as Buu was destroying planets (even while under a wizard’s control) that it was helping to keep balance.

I know that makes Whis sound kind of like an uncaring parent, but really these “gods” aren’t exactly as all-knowing as their job descriptions may have you believe…

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That could be why Whis actually trained Beerus (and possibly the other Gods of Destruction before him), and kept watch over him instead of letting him rampage across the universe like Buu.

One might assume that Whis saw the results of leaving a being of powerful destructive capabilities (Buu) unchecked could result in terrible results. I mean Buu literally wiped out the Kais, and that pretty much ruined some of the universal balance.

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You are probably wondering why Whis did not recognize “his creation” during Battle of Gods when he was hogging the pudding cups.

Remember that Old Kai was sealed in the sword by Beerus prior to Kid Buu becoming Fat Buu. It could be that after Beerus (or whoever the first God of Destruction was) entered the god-ranking as the being of destruction, Whis left Buu to his own means.

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He probably figured Buu was on a ranking like King Kai and his other counterparts, and Beerus was now on the level of Supreme Kai(s). Both races were in check of creation and destruction with lower beings to assist with their job.

From there, Whis was not aware that Kid Buu had evolved into Fat Buu, and that was why he took notice of “that pink gentleman” instead of calling him Majin Buu.

Regardless as to whether or not my theory is true, I think that it is a very interesting topic to think about.

Also, here is a link to the interview with Akira Toriyama: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/.

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What do you think about this theory? Was Buu created by Whis before the position of God of Destruction was introduced, or did he “naturally” come into the existence from the universe itself? Was Buu at one point in time more powerful than Beerus?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

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