Dragon Ball Z: Can Ultimate Gohan Turn Super Saiyan?

By Jeremy Carden

I love to write about the topics that Dragon Ball fans either debate about the most or rarely think about. In this case, I believe the topic of this blog is something that fans have been debating about since the Buu Saga was first released.

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The subject of this blog is about whether or not Gohan has the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form.

Let me start off with what some Dragon Ball sources have to say about Ultimate Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2. Daizenshuu 2 seems to be the primary source regarding the Super Saiyan transformations that Gohan is still capable of even after Old Kai’s ritual:

“Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan’s dormant power is bottomless. It also states that Ultimate Gohan is still capable of becoming a Super Saiyan, but even without utilizing the form he surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in power, if Ultimate Gohan was to become a Super Saiyan his power would likely rise to levels above even Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed).”

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Now I will give my thoughts on the above statement from the Daizenshuu, I agree that Gohan’s dormant power is essentially bottomless. This has been shown time and time again throughout the series.The second part of the statement is something that I also agree with because Gohan was easily able to beat up Super Buu.

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks on the other hand was more or less on par with the Majin, but he was not able to completely dominate him like Gohan did.

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As for the final part, I will say that I agree with a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan being able to surpass Buuhan. However, that depends on whether or not the Super Saiyan transformation would still raise Ultimate Gohan’s power 50 times over according to the Super Saiyan multiplier chart.

I mean we know that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest un-fused character in the series at that point during the Buu Saga. Could you image his power being increased by 50 with a Super Saiyan transformation, and potentially 100 times over with a Super Saiyan 2 transformation?!

I dare say that his power might even surpass that of Vegito if he had used any Super Saiyan transformation as Ultimate Gohan! However, that again is only based on whether or not the Super Saiyan multipliers would come into play with Ultimate Gohan going Super Saiyan 1 or 2. Honestly, I cannot really see why they would not be applied aside from plot purposes where Gohan was meant to lose to an opponent.

Here is another piece from Daizenshuu 2 regarding Gohan’s power:

“Ultimate Gohan can still transform further into a Super Saiyan, however, even without transforming his power still surpasses Gotenks. Ultimate Gohan is rarely shown transforming into a Super Saiyan form throughout his appearances, though he does when found as a necessity as seen in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods when he helped contribute to making Goku become a Super Saiyan God. Later, not keeping up with his training during Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’, he became a Super Saiyan when fighting Shisami and effortlessly beats him. Gohan going Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form was powerful enough as to where it concerned and made the newly empowered Frieza to attack and kill Gohan so his men could have a chance as Frieza himself says Gohan alone is more than capable of beating all 1000 men by himself. Gohan was brought back to life by Piccolo moments later.”

As you can see, the statement above is in reference to Gohan’s power from Battle of Gods and Revival of F.

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In the trailer for Battle of Gods, we saw Gohan powering up into a Super Saiyan (we assume Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan 2 due to lack of an electric aura, but the same can be said about Vegeta when he powered up without an electric aura in a rage over Bulma being smacked).

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During the actual movie, Gohan is powering up into his Ultimate form to battle Beerus.

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While the Saiyans tried twice in order to get Goku to the Super Saiyan God level, Gohan was a Super Saiyan in both attempts.

At the start of the film during the party, it appears as if Gohan was in his base form due to his appearance.

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When the gloves came off to fight Beerus, he powered up into his Ultimate form, and later into a Super Saiyan to give his dad power.

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It does not look like Gohan powered down from his Ultimate form before going Super Saiyan during the Super Saiyan God ritual. This is made apparent by his forelock hanging down, and comparing the lack of said forelock in his regular clothing.

You are probably asking yourself about Ultimate Gohan’s power as a Super Saiyan, and why he did not power up to that level to combat Beerus.

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The same can be said about Gotenks fusing as a Super Saiyan instead of a Super Saiyan 3 to combat Beerus, but I will get to that point later in the blog about how the writer’s plot trumps a character’s power.

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Moving to Revival of F (which takes place about 1 year after Battle of Gods), Gohan’s lack of training has caused his Ultimate form to lose power. True, Old Kai brought his hidden potential to the surface. However, due to no training to maintain that power; Gohan’s 100% power so to speak was much weaker at this point.

Don’t believe this could happen to someone who has their peak power brought to the surface?

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Remember that during the Cell Games, Gohan’s hidden power was brought out in the form of Super Saiyan 2. Due to 7 years of no training, Gohan’s power diminished and this was pointed out by Goku and Vegeta.

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How Ultimate Gohan’s power would decrease substantially due to merely 1 year of no training is beyond me, but that goes back to the power of the plot trumping the power of fan theories. Not to mention that Gohan said that he “thinks” that he could still go Super Saiyan implying that his power and lack of training was so serious that he might not even be able to power up like he used to.

Apparently in Revival of F, Gohan was fighting against Frieza’s army as Ultimate Gohan. I was shocked when I read about this, and this might have been due to Gohan’s new hairstyle that threw me off.

Seriously, I thought that was merely base Gohan easily fighting off Frieza’s soldiers. It is also important to point out that the Z-Fighters (Jaco included) were holding back. Even Frieza noticed that his army was so weak the “earthlings” were not even killing them, but only beating them up with ease despite being heavily outnumbered.

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Frieza was taken aback when Ultimate Gohan went Super Saiyan and took out Shisami in one blow. The power of Shisami has not been revealed, but some sources rank him around the power of Zarbon and Dodorai. This would put him around 22,000 or 23,000.

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However, that would make no sense considering he was fighting on par with Piccolo (Super Namek). Piccolo’s power had LONG surpassed 23,000, and he had accomplished that feat after his training on King Kai’s planet before he arrived on Namek and fused with Nail going into the 1,000,000 power level range.

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He had fought on par with Android 17, and further increased his power after a solo training session in the Time Chamber in preparation for the Cell Games.

I wrote a blog on my thoughts regarding Piccolo’s power during the Dragon Ball series, and you can read that here.

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During that point in the series (Revival of F), I would rank Piccolo at least around the power of a Full Power Super Saiyan Goku or Gohan from the Cell Games.

The fact that Piccolo was a bit worn out from fighting so many soldiers in my mind would not make him weak enough for a Zarbon-level opponent to be giving him a hard time!

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Not to mention that Ultimate Gohan would have to go Super Saiyan in order to knock him out!

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This just goes to show that the plot of Revival of F was meant to heavily lower the power of any character that was not Goku or Vegeta! It was almost as if I was watching GT again…

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However, not to get off subject with a rant, I think that Frieza was right to worry about Gohan’s power. Not only had he experienced that power firsthand when Gohan was a child, but he was right in assuming Gohan alone could have killed his army. A feat that I think Piccolo could have done as well if his power was not crippled by the writers…

You see if Gohan was in his base form (not Ultimate Gohan) fighting Frieza’s army, and had to take out Shisami by going Super Saiyan because by some way of writing his power was on par with Piccolo then it would have made sense.

Why?

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Piccolo is far more powerful than base Gohan, Goku and Vegeta because of his Super Namek fusion. Going Super Saiyan would have been the only way they could have beaten up Piccolo; I’m talking pre-Battle of Gods here folks.

Now for Ultimate Gohan to have to go Super Saiyan to beat this guy seems flat out ridiculous. I might have to write a separate blog about Shisami’s power because of how much nonsense that subject seems to gather.

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First form Frieza “killed” Gohan with a punch to the gut right after he had taken a Senzu bean showing that his new power was nothing to play with.

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I think that it might be safe to assume that even if Ultimate Gohan went Super Saiyan 1 or 2, he might not have been able to tangle with Final Form Frieza as his father did as a Saiyan beyond God.

Aside from the Daizenshuu, there is another source regarding Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan:

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“In Dragon Ball Z: Dokkan Battle, Ultimate Gohan (Resurrection ‘F’) is also able to further power up into a Super Saiyan 2 form.”

Despite being a video game, it is probably safe to assume that Super Saiyan 2 Ultimate Gohan is actually a reality.

At this point it seems clear that Ultimate Gohan CAN transform into a Super Saiyan 1 and 2.

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However, it is still made unclear why he never utilized this power before in order to defeat his opponents. I know most of you are wondering why he did not use this power in order to defeat Buutenks.

I mean it was mentioned above that a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan might have had the power to surpass Buuhan, and that would mean he could have killed Buutenks easily.

While Majin Buu was in the middle of transforming after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo, Gohan just stood there looking…not doing anything at all.

Goku who was watching from Supreme Kai’s planet through the crystal ball was yelling for Gohan to raise his power because Buu was once again changing.

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Did this mean that Goku knew that Gohan could raise his power higher even in his Ultimate form, or was that simply just dialogue pointing out the obvious for Gohan to not just stand there, but to prep for Buu’s more powerful form that was about to emerge?

I think it is pretty clear that if Ultimate Gohan even went to Super Saiyan 1, he could have killed Buutenks and that would have been the end of the Majin threat.

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Akira Toriyama stated that his original plan was for Ultimate Gohan to be the one to kill Buu, and become the hero of the universe once again as he had during the Cell Games. However, due to Gohan’s personality, Toriyama did not really see him as the one to be mankind’s sworn protector.

That role seemed to fit Goku’s personality more, and though I hate to admit it…he has a good point about that.

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Despite the “logic” of Ultimate Gohan clearly being the one to defeat Buu, Gohan would have most likely gone back to school and lived a normal life. Goku on the other hand would simply train to get more powerful for his own satisfaction, but also to save his earth from future threats.

In a series based on a hero who would save mankind from present and future threats, it would make more sense for Goku to be the one to kill Buu. However, in terms of power and who could have gotten the job done the easiest, that would have been Gohan hands down (or Vegito for that matter).

With that being said, it appears that if Akira allowed Gohan to go Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form, it would not have been the best move for the overall plot. This could be why Ultimate Gohan was simply fighting in his “base form” against Majin Buu.

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This could all go back to Old Kai’s ritual and what it actually did to Gohan’s power. If you ask me, it was very similar to Guru’s method of releasing a being’s hidden potential. Of course, his ritual was much faster than Old Kai’s.

Guru would simply place his hand on the person’s head, and their power would instantly be released.

Old Kai’s ritual seems to last longer if a person has tremendous hidden potential, but does not last as long for someone with little to no massive power buried deep within them.

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I think that both hidden power rituals did the SAME thing to Gohan’s power; bringing his hidden potential to the surface. However, this did not mean that Gohan’s power could not be increased through training and Zenkai boosts.

Gohan’s power seems to be essentially bottomless, and with Zenkai boosts due to his Saiyan blood, Gohan’s strength can and will increase regardless of his hidden power being brought to the surface.

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His power was around 1,500 when he first arrived on Namek, and was over 10,000 after Guru released his hidden potential.

During his battles with the Ginyu Force and Frieza, Gohan’s power increased dramatically! With Zenkai boosts from being healed with a Senzu Bean and Dende’s healing power along with his fits of rage; Gohan’s strength skyrocketed into the millions. This was proven when he had 2nd and 3rd form Frieza on the ropes!

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With that being said, Guru brought Gohan’s hidden potential to the surface that he possessed at that point in time. This created Gohan’s new “base form” so to speak.

Old Kai practically did the same thing with Ultimate Gohan being Gohan’s “base form.” Gohan could further raise his “new base form” with his Super Saiyan transformations if he needed to…like he could and should have done against the likes of Buu, Beerus and the newly revived Frieza.

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Remember what Old Kai said to Goku prior to him going to earth to use the Potara Earrings with Gohan (but instead used them with Vegeta)?

He told Goku NOT to fuse as a Super Saiyan because that form is not natural and causes a strain on the body. This would shorten the fused being’s life if he were created through a Super Saiyan fusion. Old Kai further states that due to the Potara Fusion being so powerful, going Super Saiyan could be done AFTER fusing but it would most likely NOT be necessary.

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Compare this to what he told Gohan about unleashing his new power; Old Kai said to “do that Super Saiyan thing that you always do.” Old Kai always seemed to use double-talk or give a double meaning behind his dialogue. He most likely was saying that Ultimate Gohan’s power would be sufficient against any opponent and going Super Saiyan is something that could be done but would most likely not be necessary.

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This makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, and it could indeed prove that Ultimate Gohan was practically base Gohan with a new power and attitude! His Super Saiyan transformations were practically a bonus but not a necessity due to Old Kai being confident about his ritual and other power up methods that the ways of a temporary power up like a Super Saiyan would not be needed at all.

Not to mention Ultimate Gohan does not have to suffer from physical strain or substantial Ki drain as he would have through Super Saiyan transformations (unless you exclude Full Power Super Saiyan, but even then the form is not something that would last forever like a base form would because it is not natural).

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For the most part he was right because Ultimate Gohan beat down Super Buu (prior to becoming Buutenks). Furthermore, Vegito was able to take down Buuhan will little effort in his base form (anime only).

If you ask me, the question about Ultimate Gohan going Super Saiyan is very similar to Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “base form” taken on by a Saiyan that had absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God. This essentially means that Saiyan beyond God Goku is just as powerful as Super Saiyan God Goku, but without the time limit that the Super Saiyan God form suffers from.

This mirrors Ulimate Gohan being on par it not more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3, but without the Ki drawbacks that the form possesses.

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A Saiyan beyond God and Ultimate Gohan can essentially raise their power through Super Saiyan transformations, but the question remains if a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan is 50 times more powerful than Ultimate Gohan or a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times more powerful than a Saiyan beyond God due to that “base form” practically being the same power as a Super Saiyan God.

Until we get the official power rating from Akira himself, I doubt that this subject will ever have a decisive answer. However, it is always fun to speculate about it. Although it gives me a massive headache just thinking about it, but this blog had to be written.

Overall, this was a topic that I had never thought about until I read some new sources regarding Revival of F. In GT, I was thinking that Ultimate Gohan was no more due to lack of training or the writers not including him in the series. Gohan instead would go Super Saiyan 2 in all of his battles.

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Despite Ultimate Gohan being able to increase his power through Super Saiyan transformations, Akira practically ignored this in Goku’s favor so that he could be the hero. Again, it goes back to Super Saiyan 1 or 2 Ultimate Gohan being able to take down almost any foe, and that would have made it difficult to write an opponent powerful enough to take him down.

What do you think about this theory? Could Ultimate Gohan truly go Super Saiyan 1 and 2? If so, how powerful would he have really been?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

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Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?

Dragonball Z Theory Warp Kamehameha or Final Flash: Which Move Was More Impressive Against Perfect Cell?

By Jeremy Carden

The trademark attacks of Goku and Vegeta inflicted a lot of damage to the Perfect Android known as Cell.

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Goku used his Warp Kamehameha Wave against him in the Cell Games and Vegeta launched his Final Flash right after Cell reached his Perfect Form.

Though it is has never been determined which attack got the better of Perfect Cell. When you look at both attacks carefully and the situation that the Saiyans were in along with Cell’s reaction to the attack, there is a lot more to it than Cell being blasted and regenerating.

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I know it is clear that the BEST attack against Cell was the Father-Son Kamehameha Wave because that was the attack that ultimately killed him. Keep in mind that both Goku AND Vegeta played a role in Gohan’s attack being successful.

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In both the anime AND manga, Goku was coaching Gohan during the beam struggle.

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Finally, Vegeta steps in with a Ki blast that catches Cell off guard and that leads to his defeat.

Now in terms of Goku and Vegeta’s individual blasts on Cell, there were a lot of key factors that took place as a setup for their attacks.

  1. Perfect Cell was beating them both down!

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After Cell reached his Perfect Form, Super Vegeta (Ascended Super Saiyan) was being outclassed in every single way. This was the reverse of their earlier battle when Vegeta was beating down Semi-Perfect Cell. When it was clear that Vegeta was no match for the android, he powered up his Final Flash.

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During the Cell Games, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku was going blow for blow against Cell. After Cell blew up the tournament ring, it seemed like he was getting the upper hand because there was no longer any boundaries to their match. Goku realized that he had to go for broke and flew up into the air to charge up his Warp Kamehameha Wave.

  1. Goku and Vegeta put most of their Ki into their attacks

Considering that the Saiyans knew releasing their power in small amounts was not going to be enough to defeat Cell, they opted to go for broke by unleashing a huge Ki attack with the intention of finally killing Cell.

How do I know they used most of their Ki in their attacks?

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Vegeta was visibly exhausted after hitting Cell with the Final Flash and Piccolo sensed that the powers of both Cell AND Goku had dropped significantly after the Warp Kamehameha attack; Goku from using a large amount of his Ki for the attack and Cell’s power went down sharply due to the regeneration he needed to do to recover from the attack.

  1. Both moves took awhile to charge but Cell just stood there while the Saiyans powered up their attacks!

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If there is one thing we’ve learned about the Dragon Ball series, it is that if an opponent is powering up; you stand there and do nothing!

  1. Both attacks had enough power to blow up the planet

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Trunks screamed out to his father that his blast was going to blow up the planet if he launched an attack with that much force from that particular position at Cell.

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Piccolo screamed at everyone to get out of the way because Goku was going to use his Kamehameha! Cell noticed that similar to Vegeta, Goku was in a position with an attack so powerful that if he launched it from that angle the entire planet would blow up!

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Kind of like how Vegeta (with only a power level of 18,000) back in the Saiyan Saga would have blown up the earth with his Galick Gun, the powerful Super Saiyans fighting against Cell could have done the same. This shows that it isn’t about how much power you have that matters in a Ki attack in terms of what effect it has on the planet, it depends on where you launch because depending on the position of the user, the move could blow up a planet.

  1. Goku and Vegeta both played on Cell’s pride and ego

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Now here is what I like about Vegeta in this situation; he played himself! What do I mean by that? Remember that Cell has the cells of Vegeta and knew how to play on Vegeta’s ego, pride and thirst for a challenge against powerful foes. That was how he was able to trick Vegeta into letting him obtain his Perfect Form. Now in this situation, Vegeta played on Cell’s ego (the same as his) by telling him that if he really wanted to test out the limits of his new form that he’d take on the Final Flash head-on!

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In Goku’s case, we again come across a reverse situation of something that took place earlier in their battle. When Cell charged up a powerful earth shattering Kamehameha Wave, Goku warned him not to put that much Ki into the attack or it would destroy the planet. He used a large amount of Ki in his attack while Goku watched on in a panicked like state. After launching the blast at Goku, the Saiyan flew up into the air and used Instant Transmission to dodge at the last second which prevented the planet from blowing up!

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Alright, now let’s look at the Warp Kamehameha; Goku used a large amount of Ki in his attack while Cell watched with a panicked look on his face. At first, Cell thought that he had called Goku’s bluff because he knew that based on their earlier shuffle, Goku would not place the safety of the earth in danger just to win the fight. However, this proved to work to Goku’s advantage when he took Cell by surprise!

  1. Both Saiyans caught Cell off-guard and was he nearly killed by their attacks

Since Cell “allowed” Goku and Vegeta to charge up their attacks, this left him wide open to take the full force of their techniques.

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Against the Final Flash, Cell was completely taken by surprise! If Cell had not dodged the blast at the last moment by the skin of his teeth…he would have been destroyed! The attack blasted off a good portion of his upper-torso and it was clear that the rest of his body would have been destroyed if he had not reacted at the last moment.

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It wasn’t until the last moment when the blast was about to hit him that Cell realized that the Final Flash was capable of completely annihilating him!

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When Goku used his Warp Kamehameha, Cell had no time at all to defend himself. The blast took off his full upper torso leaving only his legs remaining! Goku’s Instant Transmission put him in a position where Cell’s guard wasn’t up and he didn’t have time to react like he did against the Final Flash (well at least the split second he had to dodge).

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So, we know that if Cell had moved out of the way at the last second the dodge the Final Flash, he would have been completely destroyed!

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Looking at the Warp Kamehameha, Goku actually “killed” Cell. However, that would only apply to the text in the manga which was altered in the anime. See in the manga, Cell stated that he could regenerate as long as his head remained intact. This is similar to the Namekian regeneration technique that he acquired from Piccolo’s cells.

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In the Buu Saga, Piccolo tells Trunks that he could regenerate as long as his head wasn’s damaged. This was what happened after Trunks breaks Piccolo (when he was a statue after being hit by Dabura’s Stone Spit).

Cell in the anime says that every cell of his body has a life of its own and even if he was blown to pieces, as long as one single cell remained; he could regenerate. So if we  look at the text of the anime only then we can say that technically Goku “killed” Cell because he blew his head completely off!

  1. Cell regenerated shocking both Saiyans!

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Vegeta expressed much joy in the fact that he maimed the “perfect” android that he heard so much about. However, Cell quickly put a stop to the Saiyan’s outburst by regenerating all of the damage he took from the Final Flash. This left Vegeta with a VERY surprised look on his face.

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While the Z-Fighters were celebrating Goku’s apparent victory over Cell (well most of them anyway), Goku did not buy into the fact that he had won. He said that he could still sense a lot of energy within what was left of Cell’s body. Then like something straight out of a nightmare; Cell’s lower-half jumped up and he fully regenerated!

  1. Goku and Vegeta blast Cell with a barrage of Ki blasts

After Cell regenerated, Vegeta was shocked because that was his trump card and it failed! He then powered up and fired a Ki blast that just left a small scratch on Cell’s body.

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Vegeta then fired dozens of Ki blasts but Cell simply walked toward him out of the smoke cloud and punched him right in the face.

Goku and Cell were having a fierce exchange with high speed melee attacks, but after being knocked into a cliff and Cell was about to charge him; Goku hopped out of the rubble for a counterattack!

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He unleashed a fierce barrage of Ki blasts (Continuous Kamehameha) that had Cell stuck in place! The android knew that he was in a tight spot and unleashed his Perfect Barrier technique to save himself.

Later on, he admitted to himself that if he had not put up his barrier when he did…Goku’s attack might have actually killed him!

It is interesting that despite both Super Saiyans releasing most of their Ki in their attacks to kill Cell but failed, they still had enough power to unleash a barrage of powerful energy blasts on the android!

  1. The Saiyans give up or were ultimately defeated

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After a punch to the face, Cell kicked Vegeta right into the air and ended it with an elbow to the back which sent him hurtling into the ground. Super Vegeta was utterly defeated…

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Realizing that his Continuous Kamehameha was no use against the Perfect Barrier, Goku paused while he and Cell took a short breather. A few moments later, Goku declared that he was no match for Cell and forfeited the match.

Now with all of this being said which attack actually got the better of the self acclaimed “Perfect Android?” 

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Both attacks were very impressive and powerful, but neither one got the job done. I’ll give the Saiyans credit because despite using such lethal techniques neither one of them blew up the planet. Trunks pointed out that Vegeta directed the Final Flash into space after it hit Cell to prevent the earth from exploding. Goku used the Instant Transmission to hit Cell in a vulnerable position that would do as little damage to the planet as possible.

It is difficult to say if the Warp Kamehameha would have COMPLETELY destroyed Cell like the Final Flash would have if Cell had stayed in that one spot. You do have to look at the slight differences of the position of the blasts when they made contact with Cell.

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The Final Flash would have hit Cell’s entire body, but Goku was in a position where the Warp Kamehameha could only hit his upper torso. Based on the amount of Ki Goku put into the attack, I’d say that if he had fired his technique from the sky like Vegeta did on Cell it would have destroyed him (and the planet unless he aimed it to fly into space like Vegeta did with his move after it hit Cell).

After going over all of the bits and pieces of information, I’m going to say that the Warp Kamehameha did Cell the most harm. Don’t get me wrong, the only reason these attacks did not kill Cell was because he moved at the last moment against the Final Flash and it was the change in translation of the original dialogue that prevent Goku from killing Cell.

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Looking aside from those small details, the Warp Kamehameha clearly did the most damage to Cell. I’m not just saying that because it blew up more of his body than the Final Flash, but it has to do with the aftermath of the attacks. After Cell regenerated from his damage, he took out Vegeta with ease and then got into battle with Ultra Trunks.

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When he regenerated from Goku’s attack, it was clear that his power level had decreased dramatically just like Goku’s because he had to exert a lot of energy to regenerate. He had to eat a Senzu Bean before engaging in battle with Gohan. That just shows how much of an effect Goku’s attack had on him.

Now that I have given you my reasoning behind why the Warp Kamehameha was the better move, feel free to express which attack you felt was more effective on Cell and why.

In case you need to see the scenes from the DBZ series when Goku and Vegeta use these moves against Cell then here they are!

Goku’s Warp Kamehameha

Vegeta’s Final Flash

Both are indeed highlights from the Cell Arc but only one can be named the best attack on the Android!

 

Michael Jackson Homage In Dragon Ball Z: Battle Of Gods

By Jeremy Carden

Has anyone besides me ever have one of those moments when you watch a movie or episode of a TV show dozens of times, but you finally catch a glimpse of something that you did not notice the first time?

Most people call that a “blink and you miss” situation and believe me I just had one of them!

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I was watching DBZ Battle of Gods for the 22nd time since the movie came out and I caught a glimpse of something that made me VERY happy to be a Dragon Ball fan!

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The Z-Fighters were all enjoying Bulma’s birthday party (well except for Vegeta because he was scared as a cat on the edge of a pool because Bills and Whis were there) while this was going on.

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During the scene where the Pilaf Gang is searching Capsule Corporation for the Dragon Balls, they came across a room where Bulma was storing all of the prizes for the bingo tournament she was holding. Inside of the room, you could see all kinds of expensive prizes like a castle, a very expensive jewel and a plane.

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Aside from all of those magnificent prizes, the most spectacular one of all was the complete set of Earth’s Dragonballs. Kind of interesting that the magical orbs were collected as nothing more than a grand prize for the winner of a bingo game…

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It’s no wonder that the Shadow Dragons would eventually invade the earth in Dragon Ball GT due to the extreme misuse of the orbs (I know GT is non-canon and whatnot, but I still couldn’t resist the joke).

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At least the balls would eventually be used for a good cause in the movie; informing Goku and the others how to “create” a Super Saiyan God. Wow it certainly seemed a bit convenient that the balls had already been gathered for the bingo game to save the Z-Fighters from having to venture around the globe to find them in order to ask Shenron about the legend of the Super Saiyan God. That’s the power of plot for you!

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While the Pilaf Gang stared at the balls in amazement, they were caught by Trunks and Goten. It was during this scene that the three turned around in shock.

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Looking to the left of Emperor Pilaf, I saw a white hat and jacket. I really did not think too much of this especially as a prize for a bingo game. That was until I noticed a miniature plague or stand that had a white glove to it…

At that moment, I put two and two together and realized “OMG THAT STUFF BELONGED TO THE KING OF POP MICHAEL JACKSON!!!!!

I’m a huge MJ fan and DBZ fan so to see homage being paid to the late King of Pop in one of my favorite anime series was truly an amazing moment for me.

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The white hat and jacket were probably drawn based on the style of clothing Michael had on for the short film Smooth Criminal.

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Not to mention the iconic glove is always remembered from his trademark performance of Billie Jean at the 25th Anniversary Special for Motown.

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I know this is not the first reference to Michael in the DB series. Does anyone remember King Kai’s pet monkey Bubbles?

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I don’t know if it was ever officially confirmed, but it is quite possible that his name may be a reference to Michael pet chimp, who is also named Bubbles.

Considering that the English version of Battle of Gods is coming to the U.S. this August, I’m sure that there will be fans in theaters who will notice this small homage and smile like I did.