Dragon Ball Super: When Will The Series Take Place?

By Jeremy Carden

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With all of the leaked information about the new series, fans are very confused about when the series will take place. Originally, it was believed that Dragon Ball Super would take place after the events of Revival of Frieza.

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However, with recent pictures and chapters from the DB Super manga, it appears that this is not the case. Fans are even speculating that DB Super will erase Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza off of the map due to an inconsistency involving Beerus and his premonition of a Super Saiyan God!

Again, this is all speculation, and this blog is going to cover my own personal thoughts as to when this series will take place. Not only that, I will mention my own opinions on where the series will go. We do know that it is going to be at least 100 episodes, and possibly more depending on how well it is received by fans.

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Overall, I feel that this series will recap the events that occurred between the defeat of Kid Buu and the movie Battle of Gods. From there, it will cover the events between Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza.

Afterwards, it will cover the events between Revival of Frieza and Goku leaving the 28th World Tournament with Uub.

What I would love to see is the series going even beyond that like GT did!

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Something that could really throw things into perspective is the special released in Japan called “Yo! Son Goku and his friends return!” This is the anime special that introduced us to Vegeta’s brother named Tarble.

Here is what the time frame between Kid Buu’s death and Uub leaving with Goku looks like based on the original dates given in the Japanese version:

  • The short film about Tarble took place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu
  • Battle of Gods took place 2 years after “Yo! Son Goku”
  • Revival of Frieza occurred 1 year after Battle of Gods

This means that there are still 5 years for the writers to play around with before the anime episode called “Granddaughter Pan.” In this episode, we see the series fast forward 10 years from the death of Kid Buu.

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In the end, the biggest question raised by fans is whether or not the ending of DB Super will stay true to the original ending of DBZ. Goku leaving with Uub occurs 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu.

Let’s say that DB Super, Revival of F and Battle of Gods fit into the continuity of events that leads up to Goku vs. Uub. Re-watching that fight, it is amazing to believe that young Uub is holding his own with Goku (who by that time had achieved Super Saiyan God, Saiyan beyond God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and possibly even more power!)!

However, keep in mind that Goku was clearly holding back in that fight in order to test Uub’s abilities.

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Not to mention that similar to Tien’s Neo-Tri Beam against Semi-Perfect Cell, he was putting up an impressive feat by holding back Cell, but that was all he was doing. He wasn’t damaging Cell, but he was holding him off from absorbing #18.

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I think the same can be said about Uub during his fight with Goku because the Majin-turned-human was putting up a good fight, but it was clear that the only damage he inflicted on Goku was on his clothes!

Well, at the beginning of the fight he did make Goku’s arm tingle with a fierce kick. However, Goku underestimated Uub’s power, and remember Whis told him that letting his guard down makes even a body as powerful as his susceptible to damage from weaker opponents.

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Sorbet’s Ring Laser proved that point to be true when he pierced Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku’s heart!

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I actually think that Goku leaving with Uub would be even more touching since Whis (the Supreme Being) in Universe 7 ended up training a low-class Saiyan to become one of the best in the universe. This is like Goku sharing his skills with a young Indian boy from a poor village. The most unlikely people ended up learning from the best in the universe!

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However, I would still like DB Super to possibly continue even after Goku leaves with Uub so we can see what happens next!

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When you think about it, 5 years in DB time is not really that much. Keep in mind that the 3 years of training for the battle with the Androids was shown in a couple of episodes, but “skipped” in a single episode! Compare that to the “5 minutes” for Namek to explode, and that was stretched out for around a dozen episodes…

DB Super is going to be doing some obvious time jumps, but I think it will be worth it. I am one of those fans that love to see things being covered and explained instead of skipped over.

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Ever since I saw the picture of Gohan and Videl on their wedding day in Granddaughter Pan, I wanted to see those two being hitched! In the first episode of the new series, we learn that Goten is going to be looking for a gift because his brother’s wedding is happening soon.

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Based on Goku’s outfit while he is farming, I have a suspicion that Tarble will appear, and then we will jump to the events post-Battle of Gods. In the leaked manga chapter, we see Goku farming, Mr. Satan arriving with 100 million zeni for him, and Goku telling Goten that he wishes he could train with King Kai.

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In the Tarble special, Goku asks Chi-Chi why they have to farm despite the fact that Mr. Satan had given them a ton of money. His wife explains that despite the money, they should still work to earn their own form of financial stability. I find that interesting because it was Goku who fought to save the universe from Buu (along with help from his friends of course), and Mr. Satan was returning the favor because he thought Goku deserved something out of it!

Also in the special, Mr. Satan invites all of the Z-Fighters to his new hotel opening in honor of him defeating Buu. Here is where we reach a form of contradiction from the main series.

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Remember that 4 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, Goku had Shenron erase the memories of Majin Buu from the minds of earthlings so Good Buu (Fat Buu or Mr. Buu) could live a peaceful life on earth.

The only way I could see the world still worshiping Mr. Satan would be for them to praise and award him during the 4 months between Kid Buu’s death and their minds being erased. They must have had plans for the hotel along with the other awards for him, but after the mind wipe it seems clear that they gave it to him anyway (despite not knowing what threat they were saved from).

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Another thing to mention is the fact that Tarble was mentioned in Battle of Gods by Bulma. They were looking for a fifth Saiyan to help in the Super Saiyan God ritual, but they could not find one. Vegeta mentioned that his brother is in another star system, but he did not know which one.

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This most likely means we will indeed see everyone meeting Tarble in the first part of DB Super.

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Not to mention we see Goku training on King Kai’s Planet in the new trailer, and this was also seen at the beginning of Battle of Gods. My guess is Chi-Chi loosened the chain on Goku since Mr. Satan gave them all of that money, and he was allowed to do some training.

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Now let’s talk about Beerus’ premonition about the Super Saiyan God possibly erasing Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza out of the picture. Above is a photo from Chapter 1 of the DB Super manga, and it has driven fans insane!

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Beerus is on some alien planet, and he is having a feast. After revealing that he knew the inhabitants had poisoned his food (with no effect on him at all), he blew up their planet. He then talks to Whis about his dream about an opponent that would entertain him known as a Super Saiyan God.

Apparently, Beerus had just awoken from his 39 year slumber and was still a bit tired. Whis then suggests they go to their home world so he can remember his dream better.

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I thought that the Oracle Fish would be the key to the timeline. Why? Remember according to Beerus, it was the fish that told him that a Super Saiyan God would appear to give him a good fight and rival his power. He said that he would appear in 39 years, and that was why Beerus woke up “early” from his slumber because of the premonition from the Oracle Fish.

Again, it depends on the translation from the dub and manga because the Oracle Fish’s prophecy differs. One says that the fish foretold of the Super Saiyan God, but the other says that his prophecy was only that an unnamed opponent that would eventually become a rival to Beerus would appear. Then it was during a dream Beerus had while sleeping for 39 years that revealed the identity of his rival; a Super Saiyan God.

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Originally, I thought this scene from the manga would be Beerus thinking about the prophecy the fish told him, he would sleep 39 years after Whis takes him home, and then he would reawaken during Battle of Gods.

However, seeing Old Kai and Kibito Kai in the last panel shot that theory apart…

Overall, it is inconsistent that Beerus apparently woke up earlier in DB Super than he did in Battle of Gods. I do not think that this one little thing will erase that movie and Revival of F from the continuity. It could be that Akira is simply changing things up a bit for something just a little different.

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I do find it interesting that in the beginning of Battle of Gods, when the Kais sense Beerus’ awakening, there is a wide shot of a distant galaxy, and what appears to be the remains of a destroyed planet.

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After that, we see that Old and Supreme Kai were watching the events unfold. Could those floating rocks in space be the remains of the alien world that Beerus destroyed in the DB Super manga, or were they simply just asteroids floating in space?

Just something interesting to think about…

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Finally, I will simply talk about what I think will happen in the series. It has been revealed that a new character named Champa and a female-looking version of Whis will appear on Beerus’ planet.

Apparently he is also a God of Destruction, and he could be from one of the 11 other universes in the DB world.

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When he appears in DB Super has not yet been revealed, but my guess is either before Battle of Gods or after Revival of Frieza.

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I think it would be interesting for the series to allow us to see some of the 11 other universes. Considering Goku and Vegeta’s power is growing at an impressive rate, it seems clear that they may soon surpass Beerus with their individual power.

Not sure how long it would take for them to ever pass Whis, but at some point I think that they will. Regardless as to whether it is through them working together or fusing. Since the series is set to be 100 episodes (and maybe more), I have no doubt that other gods from the other universes will appear! Beerus even said in Battle of Gods that some of those universes spawned beings that were more powerful than he and Whis.

We all know that Goku thrives for fighting more powerful opponents, and Vegeta will not allow himself to be outdone by that low-level clown!

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Could DB Super be similar to the web comic DB Multiverse, and we will see a huge tournament between other DB universes?

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Either way, I think that the series has a lot of potential, and I am looking forward to it. I really hope that it is not like GT because I want all of the characters to shine in DB Super! GT was pretty much “Goku Time” and made everyone else weak.

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In DB Super, fans fear that with opponents like gods and other powerful beings, Goku and Vegeta will be the ONLY ones who have a chance to oppose them.

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This means that everyone else in the show like Super Gotenks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan would not stand a chance. Given their performance in Revival of Frieza (minus Gotenks)…this might be the case.

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I want to see a teenage/adult Gotenks, Piccolo reaching a new level of power, and Gohan not being written to be a weakling when he is one of the most powerful beings in the universe!

There are so many twists and turns that this new series can travel down, but I will remain a fan and view it! I do not want to be one of those fans who give the series a thumbs down before it even airs because I want this to be great. The main reason for the series being revived is because of its popularity that is being kept alive by the fans.

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With that being said, what do you think about this theory? How far will DB Super go? Will it continue up until the end of DBZ when Goku leaves with Uub? Will this erase the final 3 episodes of DBZ completely, and create something new? Do you think we will see the other 11 universes?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Z: Did Whis Create Kid Buu?

By Jeremy Carden

I have been puzzled by this question ever since I watched Battle of Gods, and read an article about an interview with Akira Toriyama regarding Majin Buu’s origins.

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When asked about Buu’s origins, Akira said this:

“Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.”

I was surprised by this information because it adds an entirely new dimension on how Buu came to be the Majin that fans know best.

Now, it is time to get down to the theory itself on how Kid Buu might be connected to Whis.

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Originally, I thought that Whis was the God of Creation because Beerus was the God of Destruction.

However, this was not the case because Akira actually stated that it was the Supreme Kais who were responsible for the creation of planets, and Beerus was the being responsible for the destruction of planets and star systems.

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King Kai told Goku that both forms of life are needed in the universe in order to maintain balance.

Alright, so it has been established that the Supreme Kais and Beerus are more or less responsible for different roles in the universe to balance things out, and Whis is pretty much the supreme being above all else in Universe 7 (the universe that we know of from DBZ).

What does this have to do with Kid Buu?

Based on Akira’s origins for the character, Buu seemed to have come out of nothingness. You might compare Buu to the Big Bang Theory, and how the universe came from an incredible explosion that seemed to have come from nowhere. However, something had to have triggered that big bang, and I am thinking that the same could have been true about Buu’s existence.

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My theory is that Whis created Kid Buu BEFORE the role (or job) of “God of Destruction” was a position that existed in Universe 7.

Buu does not have a date in which he came into existence, and it was mentioned that he has existed since time immemorial. This means that Buu is so old that it is almost generally accepted (or hinted at by Akira) that Buu has existed since the dawn of time.

Let’s say that Whis created Buu, but where did the Kais come from?

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Akira said this when asked about how one becomes a Supreme Kai (supposedly the highest status in the universe):

“No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their life spans are about 75,000 years.”

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Considering the life of a Supreme Kai is around 75,000 years, it could mean that Buu was pretty much close to being an immortal because there was only 1 of him.

However, it also makes sense that there would be multiple overseers of the universe because of different quadrants. That is where East, North, West and South Kai come into play.

Think of it like this:

The Supreme Kais are the Gods of Creation and oversee both the living and other world. The lower Kais (King Kai and his 3 counterparts) guard and oversee the living world.

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Does it seem fair that there is only one being on destruction (Buu), but there are multiple Kais who have the ability to make worlds?

Something tells me that 1 creature of destruction was enough, and the Kais probably were not making planets just for the sake of making them. I am sure that Whis might have had some word in how much could be created, or felt that Buu was more than enough to keep the planet total in check.

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Anyway, I think the most interesting part of Akira’s description of Buu was the concept of Buu not being the evil maniac that we saw in DBZ.

He describes Buu as cycling between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent.

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This sounds very similar to the origins of the Original Nameless Namek! Remember that he arrived on earth due to the storms on Namek that were on the verge of destroying the entire planet. However, the storms ended after the Namek was sent to earth. He waited years and years for his people to follow him, but they never came. During his time on earth, he watched the evilness of mankind and slowly began to adapt those traits in his personality.

From there, the Namek eventually had to surrender the evilness in his heart (that was “born” through his interactions and visuals of mankind) in order to become Guardian of the Earth.

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That was how Kami became the good-hearted overseer of Earth, and the pure evil King Piccolo came into existence.

Again, this goes back to Buu’s origins! He was a being that seemed to be created for nothing more than destruction that resulted from his rampages.

Similar to the Nameless Namek, it seems that during his rampages, Buu picked up characteristics from mankind (apparently the worst traits); sadistic, murderous, insane and other negative aspects of the living.

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Not to mention that like the Namek, Buu eventually split into a good and an evil half.

I will touch on this more when we eventually get to Buu coming into contact with the wizard Bibidi.

It appears that Buu was a being that helped to keep the balance between creation and destruction in check. This sounds very similar to the role of “God of Destruction.” After those long rampages, he would go into his ball for a long duration of hibernation.

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This mirrors the pattern of Beerus because he destroys planets as a way of making sure that there is balance in the universe, but then goes into long periods of hibernation. Whis is there to keep Beerus in check, and appears to keep the purple kitty from needless acts of destruction.

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Now we will throw Bibidi into the equation! Originally, it was believed that this midget wizard was the one responsible for creating Buu. On the contrary, Bibidi knew of the spell that could release Buu from his ball during his hibernation cycle to recharge his batteries so to speak.

From there, he turned Kid Buu into Majin Buu. The pink powerhouse was no longer a natural universal tool for balance. He was now a minion for an insane wizard. It is true that Bibidi did not have full control over Buu, but he was using him for his own means.

Galactic domination was the goal of Bibidi, and with Buu’s power at his disposal; he could have achieved what he was trying to obtain.

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First off, the Supreme Kais were on his hit list. We all know the story of how Buu killed the North and West Supreme Kais.

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After that, Buu absorbed South Kai and the Grand Supreme Kai. This resulted in Kid Buu becoming the Buff and the Fat Majin Buu that we saw when he was released from his ball during the Majin Buu Saga.

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We also know that the Eastern Supreme Kai eventually became the Supreme Kai that oversaw the entire universe.

It is not mentioned when the “lower Kais” were born, but I wager that those Kais (King Kai-level Kais) came into existence after Buu absorbed and killed the Supreme Kais.

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That seems to make the most sense considering that Supreme Kai would have been the only Kai alive to do the job. King Kai and his 3 other counterparts could have been born to oversee the lower realm to assist Supreme Kai. They may have also assisted with planet creation as well.

Of course, this is just my own personal speculation of it all, but it interesting anyway you look at it.

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Let’s backtrack to when Old Kai was trapped inside of the Z-Sword because I think it adds another interesting piece to the possible connection between Buu and Beerus.

Akira said this about Old Kai:

“The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.”

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When he was released from the sword, Old Kai mentioned that there was a terrible villain that trapped him inside of the sword. This being was jealous of his awesome magical capabilities, and he tricked Old Kai!

The dialogue that caught my attention was that “this villain” was not as terrible as Majin Buu, but still pretty bad!

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As mentioned above, this “villain” who trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword was none other than Beerus!

Old Kai’s statement could imply 1 of 2 things:

  1. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because at that point in time, Beerus may have not been as powerful as Kid Buu.
  2. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because he was not an insane destroyer. He had some reasoning and sense of right/wrong. Though he has short tempter, and will destroy a solar system when angered, Old Kai might not have seen Beerus in the same realm of “evil” as Buu.

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Wait, how could the God of Destruction potentially be weaker than Kid Buu?

Considering that Buu was possibly in existence since the beginning of time, it makes sense that Old Kai during his time (15 generations ago when compared to the Eastern Supreme Kai-turned Supreme Kai) knew of the terrible evil menace rampaging around the universe.

We do not know the origins of Beerus, but I do not think he was always the all-powerful being that we saw in Battle of Gods. Keep in mind that I think he was selected by Whis to become the God of Destruction, but during his initial acceptance of the job, he may not have been all that powerful.

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Maybe there is some kind of ritual that takes place that allows one to become a God of Destruction just like there is a ritual for a Super Saiyan God to appear.

After Beerus became a god, Whis became his fighting instructor and overseer. He might have taught him in the ways of combat, but Whis was still unable to teach Beerus to control that temper and sense of entitlement.

Similar to Ying and Yang, it makes sense that the Gods of Creation and the God of Destruction would not get along. I wonder what kind of argument caused Old Kai to be trapped in the Z-Sword.

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Depending on what dub you watched, Beerus destroyed King Kai’s once huge planet due to losing a video game or playing hide-and-seek. That was why King Kai’s planet was so small when we first saw it in the Saiyan Saga.

With that being said, I am sure that Beerus got enraged over nothing. That was how the Old Kai was trapped. Old Kai said that he was 15 generations before Supreme Kai. Considering that each Supreme Kai has a lifespan of about 75,000 years that means that Old Kai was possibly trapped in the sword around 1,125,000 years before he was released! I got that number by simply multiplying 15 times 75,000.

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In terms of power, we know that Kid Buu is on par with a Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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At the beginning of Battle of Gods, Beerus defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a pluck to the forehead and a karate chop to the neck.

I think that it goes without saying that Beerus is in an entirely different realm of power than Kid Buu!

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It all goes back on how you interpret the Old Kai’s statement of Beerus being less terrible than Buu. Whether it was in regards to his power or temperament is all based on perspective. This is very similar to the fan interpretation of Old Kai comparing the Fusion Dance to the Potara Earrings.

Maybe Beerus was powerful, but not Kid Buu-level in terms of strength during the time when he trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword?

Again, that is left to speculation…

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In any case, I think this theory can be summed up by Bibidi’s spell over Buu. I think that if Whis was truly the one who created Buu, he did so with the intention of Buu hibernating.

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Do you really think that Whis would create a being that would rampage endlessly throughout the universe without giving it an off switch? I don’t think that he would, and that is why I think Whis created Buu with his batteries needing to be recharged through hibernation in his ball.

Considering that Beerus isn’t immortal because Whis offered Goku the position of God of Destruction after Beerus eventually died, I think it is safe to say that Buu existed before Beerus.

Another possible scenario is that Buu and Beerus had hibernation cycles that occurred at different times. Perhaps Beerus would be sleeping while Buu was rampaging, and vice versa.

The flaw in that theory would be an endless cycle of destruction that would occur because of 2 powerful beings…

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Not to mention that Beerus considered 39 years of sleeping as nothing more than a catnap. I think Buu’s hibernation cycles were extremely longer than that. However, when Bibidi (and later Babidi) got Buu under one of his spells, Buu would not hibernate for long. He was sealed up whenever Bibidi felt that Buu was slipping out of control or when he needed to rest.

Perhaps Whis felt that as long as Buu was destroying planets (even while under a wizard’s control) that it was helping to keep balance.

I know that makes Whis sound kind of like an uncaring parent, but really these “gods” aren’t exactly as all-knowing as their job descriptions may have you believe…

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That could be why Whis actually trained Beerus (and possibly the other Gods of Destruction before him), and kept watch over him instead of letting him rampage across the universe like Buu.

One might assume that Whis saw the results of leaving a being of powerful destructive capabilities (Buu) unchecked could result in terrible results. I mean Buu literally wiped out the Kais, and that pretty much ruined some of the universal balance.

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You are probably wondering why Whis did not recognize “his creation” during Battle of Gods when he was hogging the pudding cups.

Remember that Old Kai was sealed in the sword by Beerus prior to Kid Buu becoming Fat Buu. It could be that after Beerus (or whoever the first God of Destruction was) entered the god-ranking as the being of destruction, Whis left Buu to his own means.

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He probably figured Buu was on a ranking like King Kai and his other counterparts, and Beerus was now on the level of Supreme Kai(s). Both races were in check of creation and destruction with lower beings to assist with their job.

From there, Whis was not aware that Kid Buu had evolved into Fat Buu, and that was why he took notice of “that pink gentleman” instead of calling him Majin Buu.

Regardless as to whether or not my theory is true, I think that it is a very interesting topic to think about.

Also, here is a link to the interview with Akira Toriyama: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/.

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What do you think about this theory? Was Buu created by Whis before the position of God of Destruction was introduced, or did he “naturally” come into the existence from the universe itself? Was Buu at one point in time more powerful than Beerus?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragonball GT: Who was stronger Super Saiyan 4 Goku or Great Ape Baby?

by Jeremy Carden

This is one of the long standing debates of Dragonball GT which begs the question which one of these 2 was the most powerful.

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If you ask me the battle between Goku and Great Golden Ape Baby Vegeta is like a seesaw in that the tables kept turning to the point that it is difficult to tell which of these two was actually winning.

There were multiple factors that came into play during their fight that makes me unsure as to who was more powerful;

  1. One of the most important being the size difference between Goku and Baby after he turned into an ape
  2. Baby losing slight control over himself as the Old Kai stated
  3. Bulma turning the tide of the battle in Baby’s favor with the Blutz Wave Machine
  4. Goku’s Ki being recharged by his sons, Trunks and Pan

And the list goes on as to how the battle went back and forth when it seemed like one side had the advantage over the other. To make things a bit easier to comprehend, I’ll go over what we do know about the battle between Goku and Baby.

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Well Goku was pretty much a mindless beast as a Great Golden Ape just thrashing around the Planet Tuffle. Even when Baby tried attack him it only resulted in him being smacked around until he decided to retreat in order to reach the same kind of power. It wasn’t until Pan helped him realize who he was and what he was fighting for that Goku snapped out of his animal instincts and reached Super Saiyan 4!

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He was toying around with Baby at first letting him score melee attacks and Ki blasts which ended up doing nothing but make Goku retort that they only felt like a feather. Even a Revenge Death Ball (which was supposed to kill Goku in their first fight on Earth until Kibito Kai saved him) did absolutely nothing to Goku.

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After letting Baby get his attacks in with no success, the gloves were off and Goku mopped the floor with the Saiyan/Tuffle!

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Just when Goku was able to kill Baby Vegeta with a Kamehameha Wave that was when the tide turned and Bulma’s Blutz Wave Generator/Machine transformed Super Baby Vegeta into a Great Ape.

Now Goku was shocked that his opponent whom he was about to kill had powered up and the tide of the battle changed.

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Well if Goku had gone ahead and killed him while he had the chance then it wouldn’t have ended up this way. Even Old and Kibito Kai said that he shouldn’t be toying around with Baby…

In any case, the battle started with Baby acting like well an ape. It was basically a repeat of Baby vs. Goku as an ape with him smacking Goku around. Baby spent most of his time rampaging like an ape reigning down destruction to his own planet and killing his own followers. People were screaming in terror at the Ki blasts and Flame Breath he was using on the city.

It wasn’t until later we discover that Baby was acting like an ape simply to act like an ape and to know what it felt like to be Goku; an out of control ape.

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Though after Goku took the full force of a Super Galick Gun in order to save the Earth from blowing up, Old Kai mentions that the method of growing back his tail through the Blutz Wave Machine actually had a negative effect that was evident in Baby’s eyes and this caused Baby to experience fits of rage and a loss of control. The Saiyan instincts were taking over and Baby was fighting to keep his sanity. Even before being hit by the rays from the machine, he asked Bulma if he would be able to control himself because he only wanted to kill Goku not wreck his whole planet.

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When Baby was about to finish off Goku he was shocked to discover that the 10x Kamehameha Wave was actually a latent attack in order to catch Baby off guard.

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After that Goku and Baby knocked each other out cold!

So that was pretty much Round 1 of their battle and we really don’t know WHO was more powerful because knocking each other out generally means that they were more or less even.

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One of the most impressive feats of the battle was Goku literally throwing Baby to the ground by grabbing one of his fingers. That is pretty powerful considering that Goku wasn’t emitting an aura showing that he was holding back power in that moment.

Right before that Goku was able to break out of Baby’s powerful grip by powering up!

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So that might indicate that Goku was more powerful but the size difference between him and Baby prevented him from a quick victory.

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Though I must admit that if Goku WAS more powerful than Baby why did he have to rely on a delayed Kamehameha Wave to distract Baby? If he could have emitted enough Ki to kill Baby once and for all (which I actually thought he did) then why didn’t he do it? I’m guessing because he couldn’t but that’s just my opinion.

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When Bulma fires ALL the Blutz Waves being emitted from the Earth it not only revives Baby but it makes him more powerful and physically bigger than before. The negative effect that had on Goku was that his Ki was depleted heavily since the Earth was taking the place of the full moon and since all the Blutz Waves were being sent to Baby, Goku was getting weaker.

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Baby was so powerful that just by giving out a roar he was able to destroy buildings and his power was felt by Trunks who was far off on another section of the planet flying towards the action after being freed from Baby’s control thanks to the Sacred Water.

Goku being out of energy was bluffing until Baby called it and was on the verge of killing him until Pan stepped in. Goten, Gohan and Trunks arrive on the scene and Goku asks for them to give him their Ki so he can become a full power Super Saiyan 4 once again.

Pan says that it IS the only way because before Bulma’s machine made Baby more powerful, Goku had that ape on the ground! Now here is the line that a lot of fans use as proof of Goku being more powerful;

Baby; “That little brat is right, I cannot let him power up again!”

This might indicate fear because if Baby was 100% confident in his new power then he would do what any other villain in the past would do and let his opponent power up seeing it as no threat; Cell did this with Gohan and Buuhan was willing to let Goku fuse with someone using the Potara Earrings but Baby was like Frieza and paranoid of the threat of a Super Saiyan or in this case Super Saiyan 4.

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From there he starts attacking the group to prevent them from giving Goku their Ki. Now here is where I figure that Baby was weakened. After recovering from the Solar Flare, Baby charged up a Super Galick Gun and prepared to kill the group before he is attacked from the inside!

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Majuub who was previously eaten by Baby after being hit by his own Chocolate Beam reverts to his human self and powers up inside of Baby’s digestive system crippling the giant ape. If you ask me I think that Majuub’s assault brought Baby’s power down. Seriously Baby was in severe pain as if he was losing a battle against extreme indigestion. After spitting Majuub out he attempted another Galick Gun to kill the Saiyans BUT it was too late…

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Goku was once again at full power!!!

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Moving on to the final round of their battle he and Goku fire Ki blasts at each other and pause with both panting very hard. This again shows that they were more or less on even ground. Even Gohan and Trunks comment on how they are more or less even with Gohan mentioning that Baby might have the upper hand since Goku had taken more damage only for Pan to say that Goku HAS to win this.

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Now here is where things go wrong on Baby’s part; he starts throwing a temper tantrum making rash attempts at killing Goku. Back when Goku lost his first battle with Baby, he discovered that it was Baby’s weakness that he didn’t like being made fun of because he would throw a fit losing his cool. Goku did the same here mocking Baby saying that his Super Galick Gun probably would have hurt…if it actually hit him that its…

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Baby fires a powerful Super Galick Gun which Goku dodges with ease and that just makes Baby angrier. He pulls off a rapid fire version of the Super Galick Gun that doesn’t even hit Goku but instead causing lava to emerge from underneath the ground causing a HUGE cloud of smoke where he finds cover for his final attack.

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He charges up the Revenge Death Ball Final in an attempt to kill Goku once and for all. Goku doesn’t dodge but catches the blast but is pushed into a cliff where he is absorbed by the blast and feels the negative Ki breaking his body but his will and love for his friends and family somehow allows him to absorb the attack?

Yeah I’ll get into that later…

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From there he powers up a 10x Kamehameha Wave that knocks out Baby before blasting his tail off which forces him to revert back to his Baby Vegeta form and he exits Vegeta’s body in an attempt to escape the planet.

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Goku waits until his ship is at the right angle and blasts him into the sun!

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Baby is fried to a crisp at that is the end of the Tuffle!

Alright so in the end Goku wins that battle with the Great Ape. The question still remains though who was stronger? I suppose that Goku as a Super Saiyan 4 IS more powerful but there is still room for debate as I mentioned above. There were a lot of factors that tipped the scales of this battle in Goku AND Baby’s favor with no true clear winner.

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We don’t know how much a Great Golden Ape transformation multiplies a Saiyan’s power. The regular Great Ape form is a 10x power increase. Many fans say that the Great Golden Ape form is the “Super Saiyan of Legend” that Vegeta talked about in the Ginyu Saga. He even says that the Saiyan could only hold the form while in the Great Ape state. However, that is only in anime filler and never mentioned/seen in the manga so it is up to you as to whether or not you feel that Saiyan from Vegeta’s story IS the Great Golden Ape or aka the Super Saiyan of Legend. Well GT is non-canon so it is what it is and I’ll leave it at that.

I’ll be one to say that I do believe that the Great Golden Ape and the Saiyan from Vegeta’s story IS the same transformation. Vegeta said that the Saiyan was drunk with power destroying the planet he was on and as a result killing him.

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Goku was practically doing the same to the Tuffle Planet causing volcanic activity until he was reaching up for the earth showing that he had some memory of his “former self” which Pan helped him to remember.

In any case with some fans believing the Great Golden Ape form to be the “Super Saiyan” version of the Great Ape form some say that the form is a 50x increase of the base power just like a Super Saiyan transformation is. I GUESS this is a plausible theory because the Great Ape form is the true form of a Saiyan which is 10x the Saiyan’s power so if the Golden Ape is 50x that it would mean that Great Golden Ape Goku is 500x more powerful than base form Goku.

Super Saiyan 4 is 10x stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 meaning 4000x base power so…

Yeah it is really up to you to decide how you feel about that.

Great Ape Baby Vegeta was not just Vegeta’s power it was Baby’s as well. Keep in mind that Baby alone was not that powerful.

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Let’s see Baby had grown into a “teenager Baby” before taking over Vegeta’s body. He had gotten huge power boosts from taking over Goten and Gohan. Then he absorbed Ki from Trunks, Bulla, Gohan and Goten allowing him to transform into Baby Vegeta 2.

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Finally, he absorbs the Ki from the Earthlings-turned-Tuffles which was all negative Ki from their hatred of the Saiyans for the Revenge Death Ball which transformed him into Super Baby Vegeta.

So Baby Vegeta received 2 huge power ups prior to becoming a Great Golden Ape.

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And I believe the reason he wasn’t able to go Super Saiyan 4 even though he was “in control” of himself for the most part as a Great Golden Ape was because Vegeta wasn’t the one in control and Vegeta was technically a Tuffle and not a full blooded Saiyan. From what I can gather anyone who is not 100% Saiyan is not able to turn SS4. So Gohan, Goten and Trunks being 50% wouldn’t be able to turn SS4 which is ridiculous in my book.

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Finally, going back to what I mentioned before; how the heck did Goku survive those Revenge Death Balls?

I kind of feel that the reason he was able to do so was because those attacks were not enough to destroy him. Either that or the fact that the attack is made of 100% negative Ki which is the exact opposite of the Spirit Bomb which is made of 100% positive energy. The reason Goku could survive it was because he is a positive being well at least in base and Full Power Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 1 he is pure of heart.

Now as a Super Saiyan 4 I don’t think he is but since this is GT I don’t know if the same rules apply…

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I’m going out on a limb and say that Goku was so powerful that the Revenge Death Ball and the Flaming Death Ball were not powerful enough to inflict major or any damage to him.

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But when in terms of the Revenge Death Ball Final that was complete bull! Goku was literally trapped in the center of the blast and was suffering from the attack. It wasn’t until he refused to lose for the sake of his loved ones was he able to overpower the attack and it literally seemed like he absorbed the attack somehow.

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Kind of like how he did Bills’ ultimate attack in Battle of Gods…just throwing that out there…

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I’m just guessing that his positive energy overpowered the attack like how SS4 Gogeta was able to use his own life force to transform Omega Shenron’s Negative Karma Ball into positive energy and that attack was 100% negative energy as well so let’s say that is the reason Goku was able to “absorb” or cancel out the attack.

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So in the end Super Saiyan 4 Goku reigns supreme! Baby had to deal with his own temper tantrums, the psychological battle with himself and the Saiyan body he was controlling and a smaller/faster opponent. Goku had to deal with a larger opponent, Baby Vegeta was arguably insane threatening to blow up Earth which caused Goku to jump into an attack to save the planet, a huge loss of Ki thanks to Bulma’s machine and finally a beating from the Great Ape that almost killed him until he got his Ki recovered.

If Baby Vegeta DID go Super Saiyan 4 then who knows who the victor might have been…

Overall, I think Majuub did weaken Baby Vegeta lowering his power enough for Goku to more or less have the upper hand.

What do you think was Goku outright the most powerful of the 2 or did Baby have more power but was outsmarted by Goku?