Dragon Ball Z: Did Whis Create Kid Buu?

By Jeremy Carden

I have been puzzled by this question ever since I watched Battle of Gods, and read an article about an interview with Akira Toriyama regarding Majin Buu’s origins.

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When asked about Buu’s origins, Akira said this:

“Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.”

I was surprised by this information because it adds an entirely new dimension on how Buu came to be the Majin that fans know best.

Now, it is time to get down to the theory itself on how Kid Buu might be connected to Whis.

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Originally, I thought that Whis was the God of Creation because Beerus was the God of Destruction.

However, this was not the case because Akira actually stated that it was the Supreme Kais who were responsible for the creation of planets, and Beerus was the being responsible for the destruction of planets and star systems.

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King Kai told Goku that both forms of life are needed in the universe in order to maintain balance.

Alright, so it has been established that the Supreme Kais and Beerus are more or less responsible for different roles in the universe to balance things out, and Whis is pretty much the supreme being above all else in Universe 7 (the universe that we know of from DBZ).

What does this have to do with Kid Buu?

Based on Akira’s origins for the character, Buu seemed to have come out of nothingness. You might compare Buu to the Big Bang Theory, and how the universe came from an incredible explosion that seemed to have come from nowhere. However, something had to have triggered that big bang, and I am thinking that the same could have been true about Buu’s existence.

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My theory is that Whis created Kid Buu BEFORE the role (or job) of “God of Destruction” was a position that existed in Universe 7.

Buu does not have a date in which he came into existence, and it was mentioned that he has existed since time immemorial. This means that Buu is so old that it is almost generally accepted (or hinted at by Akira) that Buu has existed since the dawn of time.

Let’s say that Whis created Buu, but where did the Kais come from?

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Akira said this when asked about how one becomes a Supreme Kai (supposedly the highest status in the universe):

“No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their life spans are about 75,000 years.”

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Considering the life of a Supreme Kai is around 75,000 years, it could mean that Buu was pretty much close to being an immortal because there was only 1 of him.

However, it also makes sense that there would be multiple overseers of the universe because of different quadrants. That is where East, North, West and South Kai come into play.

Think of it like this:

The Supreme Kais are the Gods of Creation and oversee both the living and other world. The lower Kais (King Kai and his 3 counterparts) guard and oversee the living world.

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Does it seem fair that there is only one being on destruction (Buu), but there are multiple Kais who have the ability to make worlds?

Something tells me that 1 creature of destruction was enough, and the Kais probably were not making planets just for the sake of making them. I am sure that Whis might have had some word in how much could be created, or felt that Buu was more than enough to keep the planet total in check.

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Anyway, I think the most interesting part of Akira’s description of Buu was the concept of Buu not being the evil maniac that we saw in DBZ.

He describes Buu as cycling between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent.

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This sounds very similar to the origins of the Original Nameless Namek! Remember that he arrived on earth due to the storms on Namek that were on the verge of destroying the entire planet. However, the storms ended after the Namek was sent to earth. He waited years and years for his people to follow him, but they never came. During his time on earth, he watched the evilness of mankind and slowly began to adapt those traits in his personality.

From there, the Namek eventually had to surrender the evilness in his heart (that was “born” through his interactions and visuals of mankind) in order to become Guardian of the Earth.

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That was how Kami became the good-hearted overseer of Earth, and the pure evil King Piccolo came into existence.

Again, this goes back to Buu’s origins! He was a being that seemed to be created for nothing more than destruction that resulted from his rampages.

Similar to the Nameless Namek, it seems that during his rampages, Buu picked up characteristics from mankind (apparently the worst traits); sadistic, murderous, insane and other negative aspects of the living.

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Not to mention that like the Namek, Buu eventually split into a good and an evil half.

I will touch on this more when we eventually get to Buu coming into contact with the wizard Bibidi.

It appears that Buu was a being that helped to keep the balance between creation and destruction in check. This sounds very similar to the role of “God of Destruction.” After those long rampages, he would go into his ball for a long duration of hibernation.

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This mirrors the pattern of Beerus because he destroys planets as a way of making sure that there is balance in the universe, but then goes into long periods of hibernation. Whis is there to keep Beerus in check, and appears to keep the purple kitty from needless acts of destruction.

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Now we will throw Bibidi into the equation! Originally, it was believed that this midget wizard was the one responsible for creating Buu. On the contrary, Bibidi knew of the spell that could release Buu from his ball during his hibernation cycle to recharge his batteries so to speak.

From there, he turned Kid Buu into Majin Buu. The pink powerhouse was no longer a natural universal tool for balance. He was now a minion for an insane wizard. It is true that Bibidi did not have full control over Buu, but he was using him for his own means.

Galactic domination was the goal of Bibidi, and with Buu’s power at his disposal; he could have achieved what he was trying to obtain.

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First off, the Supreme Kais were on his hit list. We all know the story of how Buu killed the North and West Supreme Kais.

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After that, Buu absorbed South Kai and the Grand Supreme Kai. This resulted in Kid Buu becoming the Buff and the Fat Majin Buu that we saw when he was released from his ball during the Majin Buu Saga.

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We also know that the Eastern Supreme Kai eventually became the Supreme Kai that oversaw the entire universe.

It is not mentioned when the “lower Kais” were born, but I wager that those Kais (King Kai-level Kais) came into existence after Buu absorbed and killed the Supreme Kais.

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That seems to make the most sense considering that Supreme Kai would have been the only Kai alive to do the job. King Kai and his 3 other counterparts could have been born to oversee the lower realm to assist Supreme Kai. They may have also assisted with planet creation as well.

Of course, this is just my own personal speculation of it all, but it interesting anyway you look at it.

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Let’s backtrack to when Old Kai was trapped inside of the Z-Sword because I think it adds another interesting piece to the possible connection between Buu and Beerus.

Akira said this about Old Kai:

“The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.”

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When he was released from the sword, Old Kai mentioned that there was a terrible villain that trapped him inside of the sword. This being was jealous of his awesome magical capabilities, and he tricked Old Kai!

The dialogue that caught my attention was that “this villain” was not as terrible as Majin Buu, but still pretty bad!

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As mentioned above, this “villain” who trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword was none other than Beerus!

Old Kai’s statement could imply 1 of 2 things:

  1. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because at that point in time, Beerus may have not been as powerful as Kid Buu.
  2. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because he was not an insane destroyer. He had some reasoning and sense of right/wrong. Though he has short tempter, and will destroy a solar system when angered, Old Kai might not have seen Beerus in the same realm of “evil” as Buu.

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Wait, how could the God of Destruction potentially be weaker than Kid Buu?

Considering that Buu was possibly in existence since the beginning of time, it makes sense that Old Kai during his time (15 generations ago when compared to the Eastern Supreme Kai-turned Supreme Kai) knew of the terrible evil menace rampaging around the universe.

We do not know the origins of Beerus, but I do not think he was always the all-powerful being that we saw in Battle of Gods. Keep in mind that I think he was selected by Whis to become the God of Destruction, but during his initial acceptance of the job, he may not have been all that powerful.

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Maybe there is some kind of ritual that takes place that allows one to become a God of Destruction just like there is a ritual for a Super Saiyan God to appear.

After Beerus became a god, Whis became his fighting instructor and overseer. He might have taught him in the ways of combat, but Whis was still unable to teach Beerus to control that temper and sense of entitlement.

Similar to Ying and Yang, it makes sense that the Gods of Creation and the God of Destruction would not get along. I wonder what kind of argument caused Old Kai to be trapped in the Z-Sword.

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Depending on what dub you watched, Beerus destroyed King Kai’s once huge planet due to losing a video game or playing hide-and-seek. That was why King Kai’s planet was so small when we first saw it in the Saiyan Saga.

With that being said, I am sure that Beerus got enraged over nothing. That was how the Old Kai was trapped. Old Kai said that he was 15 generations before Supreme Kai. Considering that each Supreme Kai has a lifespan of about 75,000 years that means that Old Kai was possibly trapped in the sword around 1,125,000 years before he was released! I got that number by simply multiplying 15 times 75,000.

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In terms of power, we know that Kid Buu is on par with a Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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At the beginning of Battle of Gods, Beerus defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a pluck to the forehead and a karate chop to the neck.

I think that it goes without saying that Beerus is in an entirely different realm of power than Kid Buu!

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It all goes back on how you interpret the Old Kai’s statement of Beerus being less terrible than Buu. Whether it was in regards to his power or temperament is all based on perspective. This is very similar to the fan interpretation of Old Kai comparing the Fusion Dance to the Potara Earrings.

Maybe Beerus was powerful, but not Kid Buu-level in terms of strength during the time when he trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword?

Again, that is left to speculation…

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In any case, I think this theory can be summed up by Bibidi’s spell over Buu. I think that if Whis was truly the one who created Buu, he did so with the intention of Buu hibernating.

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Do you really think that Whis would create a being that would rampage endlessly throughout the universe without giving it an off switch? I don’t think that he would, and that is why I think Whis created Buu with his batteries needing to be recharged through hibernation in his ball.

Considering that Beerus isn’t immortal because Whis offered Goku the position of God of Destruction after Beerus eventually died, I think it is safe to say that Buu existed before Beerus.

Another possible scenario is that Buu and Beerus had hibernation cycles that occurred at different times. Perhaps Beerus would be sleeping while Buu was rampaging, and vice versa.

The flaw in that theory would be an endless cycle of destruction that would occur because of 2 powerful beings…

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Not to mention that Beerus considered 39 years of sleeping as nothing more than a catnap. I think Buu’s hibernation cycles were extremely longer than that. However, when Bibidi (and later Babidi) got Buu under one of his spells, Buu would not hibernate for long. He was sealed up whenever Bibidi felt that Buu was slipping out of control or when he needed to rest.

Perhaps Whis felt that as long as Buu was destroying planets (even while under a wizard’s control) that it was helping to keep balance.

I know that makes Whis sound kind of like an uncaring parent, but really these “gods” aren’t exactly as all-knowing as their job descriptions may have you believe…

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That could be why Whis actually trained Beerus (and possibly the other Gods of Destruction before him), and kept watch over him instead of letting him rampage across the universe like Buu.

One might assume that Whis saw the results of leaving a being of powerful destructive capabilities (Buu) unchecked could result in terrible results. I mean Buu literally wiped out the Kais, and that pretty much ruined some of the universal balance.

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You are probably wondering why Whis did not recognize “his creation” during Battle of Gods when he was hogging the pudding cups.

Remember that Old Kai was sealed in the sword by Beerus prior to Kid Buu becoming Fat Buu. It could be that after Beerus (or whoever the first God of Destruction was) entered the god-ranking as the being of destruction, Whis left Buu to his own means.

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He probably figured Buu was on a ranking like King Kai and his other counterparts, and Beerus was now on the level of Supreme Kai(s). Both races were in check of creation and destruction with lower beings to assist with their job.

From there, Whis was not aware that Kid Buu had evolved into Fat Buu, and that was why he took notice of “that pink gentleman” instead of calling him Majin Buu.

Regardless as to whether or not my theory is true, I think that it is a very interesting topic to think about.

Also, here is a link to the interview with Akira Toriyama: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/.

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What do you think about this theory? Was Buu created by Whis before the position of God of Destruction was introduced, or did he “naturally” come into the existence from the universe itself? Was Buu at one point in time more powerful than Beerus?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

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Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?