Will Fusion Lead To Universe 6’s Downfall? | Dragon Ball Super

by Jeremy Carden

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Considering the two female Saiyans from Universe 6 will merge using the Potara Earrings, could this possibly have a negative impact for Champa’s team?

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Even the two Namekians for Universe 6 might fuse as well because Gohan and Piccolo are giving them a run for their money.

In the video below, I go into my full thoughts on the subject.

 

Do you think that Vegeta and Goku will merge as well in this Tournament of Power?

There is no telling if the Grand Priest and the Omni-Kings will allow the fusion because it is merging technique with tools for the gods, but if Zeno thinks it is cool then it might be allowed…

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Will the power go to the fused female’s head? I mean they were memorized by Super Saiyan 3, and they might reduce their fusion time.

The next couple of episodes should answer these questions and more! The biggest one being whether or not this new fusion will count as one or two fighters for Team Universe 6! Remember that Champa’s plan for victory has more to do with the number of fighters left by the end of the tournament, but he only has four more left.

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Dragon Ball Super: Will Goku and Vegeta Fuse?

By Jeremy Carden

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After watching Revival of F, I have a very strong hunch that Dragon Ball fans will once again see a Goku/Vegeta fusion!

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If you ask me, I think that Whis’ main goal in training the Saiyan duo is not only to help them perfect their fighting abilities as individuals, but to also make them understand that they need to learn how to work together.

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Whis pointed out that Vegeta is too tense and Goku is too carefree. The two are practically opposing opposites when it comes to fighting. Vegeta is the more brilliant fighter, but Goku is better when it comes to off the wall combat (a good fighter that does not go by the books, he is better at overcoming obstacles by thinking outside of the box).

I mean if you look at the times when the two actually worked together to defeat the odds, you have to admit that they make a very potent combo!

For a moment, forget about what is canon and what is non-canon. Think back to some epic moments within the Dragon Ball franchise when these Saiyans actually teamed up.

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The Return of Cooler was a movie where neither Saiyan could take Cooler on in his new form.

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When they put aside their differences, the team destroyed 1 Meta-Cooler robot (before 1,000 showed up). In the end, they overpowered the Big Gete Star achieving victory!

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In the anime-only battle with Buuhan, each Saiyan was getting wrecked by the “mightiest Majin.”

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Goku convinced Vegeta to use the Potara Earrings in order to save the universe, and Vegito was beating around Buu with ease!

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How about when Super Janemba was able to defeat Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta?

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They ended up creating Gogeta in order to send that demon back into oblivion!

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Finally, the threat of Omega Shenron proved too great for even a couple of Super Saiyan 4s to stop!

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Once again, fusion created Gogeta to stop another threat to the universe (though this time around; Gogeta did not get the job done…).

My point is that Goku and Vegeta are extremely powerful as individuals, but working together has proven that the two can overcome almost any obstacle in their way.

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I think Goku said it best when he was describing the Fusion Dance back during the Buu Saga. He said that a being created from the fusion would be capable of accomplishing feats that neither individual could do alone.

Don’t you think that Vegito and Gogeta fit that description perfectly? I mean whenever the Saiyans fused, it was because they realized that they did not stand a chance of winning against their opponent at the time as individuals. They had no other option but to fuse in order to defeat the odds with overwhelming power!

Now the question remains as to whether or not Goku and Vegeta will actually fuse in the Dragon Ball Super series.

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Originally, I thought that if there was a movie to follow Revival of F; the two would fuse again. You have to admit that the movie itself seemed like a setup in order for the Saiyans to realize that they need to work together in order to achieve the best results.

I mean they fought against each other instead of fighting together against Frieza, and the entire world was destroyed (until Whis reversed time) due to their unwillingness to work as a team!

At the end of the film, Goku mentioned that their battle with Frieza was proof that Whis was correct when he said that they should work together more. However, Vegeta scoffed at the remark about them working together. With laughter, Goku agreed that it would never happen.

Is that right?

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Considering that Champa, Universe 6 and the Super Dragon Balls will appear in the DB Super anime/manga; I think the two WILL fuse again!

Why?

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With 11 other universes out there that contain beings more powerful than Beerus AND Whis, the Saiyans will eventually come across opponent(s) too powerful for them to defeat alone.

Fusion would be their only option, and it will be their trump card in order to win against their foes.

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As I mentioned in another blog about Gogeta appearing within the DB Super series, I think that the two fusing would be their completion of their training under Whis.

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I feel this way because as I mentioned above, Whis is teaching the two how to overcome their individual weaknesses, and to also work together as a team.

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Considering that Lord Beerus could be defeated if the two worked together (Whis mentioned this), I think Goku and Vegeta teaming up would be a threat to even gods more powerful than Beerus from some of the other universes!

Whis seeing the two truly working together would be the icing on the cake (because we know how Whis and Beerus love to eat) to their training.

Fans are split as to which fusion would actually appear within the DB Super series. Some say that Gogeta will finally make an appearance, and others are strongly behind Vegito reappearing.

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The thing that gets me is when fans say that Gogeta CAN’T appear because he is NOT considered canon. Personally, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. True, his appearance in GT and Fusion Reborn were considered my most to be non-canon. However, the Fusion Dance itself IS canon because the technique appearance in the anime and manga.

Goku knows about the dance, and he would show it to Vegeta if necessary for them to actually fuse against an opponent. Of course, I am sure that he would object to it because of the prissy movements needed to execute the technique. He did perform an embarrassing bingo dance to save the planet from destruction. What harm could performing one little ballet dance (Fusion Dance) do?

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Think about how upset he was when he had to hold hands with Goku in order to teleport to earth using Instant Transmission! Although, I thought he could have just placed his hand on Goku’s shoulder or something, but I guess the writers wanted to make that scene as awkward as they possibly could.

In my opinion, I believe that Gogeta will be the one who appears in the DB Super series if the Saiyans ever fused.

Why?

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Do you really believe that Vegeta or Goku would want to do a permanent fusion (again)?

The only reason Vegito split was because of Buu’s digestive system breaking the Potara Fusion apart.

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In Battle of Gods, Revival of F and DB Super Episode 5, whenever fusion was mentioned it was a reference to Vegito NOT Gogeta. This is because Vegito was the only fusion between the two to appear in both the anime and manga.

Unless we see Vegito from one of the other 11 universes, I do not think that he will appear again. Perhaps there is another universe where they used the Potara Fusion, but for whatever reason they did not split apart.

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This is what happened in the DB Multiverse series because there was a universe where Vegito did not remove the barrier protecting him within Buu’s body. After escaping with the absorbed Z-Fighters, Vegito killed Kid Buu (and the fusion stayed intact).

I know that DB Super is changing some of the events of Battle of Gods/Revival of F, but it is still unknown whether or not the ending of DBZ anime/manga will be kept the same. I am not just referring to Uub appearing and then leaving to train with Goku.

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I am talking about Goku and Vegeta not being fused into Vegito because we see them as two individual Saiyans.

That is why I feel that if they do fuse, Goku and Vegeta would use the Fusion Dance to become Gogeta.

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Who is to say that the Kais couldn’t make special Potara Earrings that would allow a temporary fusion?

However, that would be like opening a can of worms in order to make Vegito show up again.

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Another possibly is that Whis (or another being) knows of a fusion technique that we have never seen before! There really is no clear understanding on where the story of DB Super is going because it has just started. I am really excited because of the revival of the DB franchise as a whole, and anything can happen!

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I could care less about which fusion appears because I love both Gogeta and Vegito. The one thing that I want to see more than anything is an opponent that makes a Goku/Vegeta fusion actually HAVE to use their full power!

Remember that Super Gogeta, Super Vegito and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta dominated their opponents with ease. We never got to see the full extent of their power, and that is something that a lot of fans would want to see at some point.

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Can you imagine the power and techniques utilized by a full power Gogeta or Vegito? It makes me excited because any awesome techniques from the series are almost always put into DBZ video games. Not to mention the possibility of a new Super Saiyan level!

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Which fusion do you think will appear in the future; Gogeta, Vegito or someone entirely new?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Z: Is Super Saiyan 3 Goku More Powerful Than Ultimate Gohan?

By Jeremy Carden

There is a battle that has caused a lot of tension within the fan base of the Dragon Ball series. I have seen many blogs and videos about this particular subject. Fans have debated about Gogeta vs. Vegito, Kid Buu vs. Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed) and Goku vs. Superman.

However, the topic of this blog will focus on the ultimate battle between Goku and Gohan.

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While reading this blog, please remember that I will be discussing Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan (also called Mystic Gohan by some fans) from the Majin Buu Saga.

This blog will not include anything between the time of Kid Buu’s death and the ending of DBZ when Goku leaves with Uub.

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That means nothing about Super Saiyan God or Dragon Ball GT will be included in this blog.

Let’s get this battle started! As with most of my “Who would win?” blogs, I will start this one by expressing my thoughts right off the bat. I feel that in terms of power alone; Gohan is the winner.

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Does that mean he would win? Yes…and no. Just because Gohan is more powerful than Goku does not mean that he would win.

At this point, some readers are probably shaking their heads at my belief that Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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Before I go any further, I just want to say that this blog is based on my own personal opinion. If you feel that Goku is more powerful than Gohan then you are entitled to your opinion. From this point on in the blog, I will attempt to use facts from the manga AND anime in order to get my point across. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below after finishing this blog, and you can tell me if I have persuaded you that Gohan is more powerful.

Believe it or not, when it comes down to determining which warrior is more powerful; you have to examine which form of Majin Buu is more powerful. The 2 Buus that I am talking about are Super Buu and Kid Buu.

The reason that I picked out these forms of Buu is because they are the Buus that Goku and Gohan battled the hardest against.

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If you have ever read my very first DBZ blog about which form of Buu is the most powerful, then you know that I feel that Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed) is the strongest, and Kid Buu is far from #1.

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In any case, we know that Kid Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are more or less equals. It was mentioned that if Goku had started off the fight at 100%, and did not hold back so that Vegeta would have a chance to fight; he could have killed Kid Buu.

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He mentioned the same about his battle with Fat Buu, but in that case he was not holding back for Vegeta’s sake. In that fight, he was holding back in order for Gohan, Goten and Trunks to have a shot at fighting for the planet. However, unlike the battle with Kid Buu, it was clear that he was holding back (a lot) during his fight with Fat Buu. He did not battle to the point of exhausted as he did against Kid Buu.

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When talking about two fighters who were more or less equals, Super Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks seem to fit that category very nicely. Gotenks was playing around with Buu during their fight, and it was literally a back and forth conflict. Each fighter was able to take a blow, and dish one back out to their opponent! You could argue that Buu was holding back because he was waiting for Gohan to arrive, but it is clear he and Gotenks were on the same plateau of power.

It was Buu’s regeneration powers and endurance that kept the young Super Saiyan 3 from putting him down for the count. However, when Gotenks was about to kill Buu for good, his power ran out and his Fusion ended.

Alright, so we know that Goku and Gotenks had the power to completely annihilate the pink menace that they battled against. They just held back for different reasons; Goku for his respect of Vegeta’s pride, and Gotenks’ cocky nature.

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This leads us to Goku’s comment to Vegeta before they escaped from Super Buu’s head. He mentioned that neither of them could survive if Buu fought them after leaving his body. Fusion was the only way that he and Vegeta would stand a chance.

Goku was literally saying that he was NOT powerful enough to destroy Super Buu if they had to battle him!

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Remember that Ultimate Gohan mopped the floor with Super Buu. He did not even use ki attacks against the pink titan, he was using nothing but melee attacks to push Buu into a corner.

This leads to another point about how powerful Buu became after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo. We have established that Gohan is more powerful than Super Buu, and this means he is clearly more powerful than Gotenks.

He took Buu apart without much effort, but Gotenks was literally kept on his toes by Buu’s power. So, after absorbing Gotenks, we can assume that Buu’s power pretty much doubled in power.

I think we can conclude that Buu’s absorption technique is a power-up that takes the person(s) absorbed, and adds their power to Buu’s.

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With that being said, “Buutenks” had a power that was over double what it was before. Keep in mind that Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks were pretty much even, and he took Piccolo’s power too (though the Namek’s absorption was more about adding his intelligence to Buu rather than his overall power).

In the anime, Gohan and Buu were on par with each other. It was not until Buu starting using “the Piccolo in him” to chip away at Gohan’s confidence, and that led to him being completely overpowered.

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Unlike the anime, the manga portrayal of Buutenks vs. Gohan was showing Buu’s power to be something that Gohan stood absolutely no chance against.

It appears that Gohan was indeed superior to Buu and Gotenks, but less than twice their power. I would say that he was probably somewhere between 1.2-1.5 times more powerful than Super Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Where does this leave Goku?

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Another blog that I wrote awhile back was concerning the subject of Super Gotenks’ power compared to Goku’s. In that blog, I talked about my thoughts on how even a Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks had power that was superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Why would I say that?

Remember that Goku originally declined killing the Fat Buu because he wanted the boys to save the world instead of relying on him (since he was dead, Goku did not feel it was his right to step in as a savior to the planet).

He taught the boys the Fusion Dance, and felt that it would be the ONLY way of defeating Buu. Trunks asked why he did not teach them Super Saiyan 3 because if he and Goten teamed up at that level then they would beat Buu for sure. However, Goku told them that Fusion was the ONLY way.

After seeing how sad they were, he showed them Super Saiyan 3 before leaving with Baba. In my opinion, I feel that Goku thought that Goten and Trunks fused as Super Saiyans would be enough to defeat Buu (without the need for a Super Saiyan 3 transformation). Goku knew that level 3 was something not meant to be used in the living world due to the rapid ki depletion that it causes for the user outside of other world.

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Considering that he had just fought Buu himself at Super Saiyan 3, I think that Goku knew for a fact that a Super Saiyan 1 Fusion would be enough to kill Buu. This means that it is safe to conclude that Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-Time Chamber) was in the same realm of power as Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

Let’s take things a step further in order to analyze just how powerful Gotenks was. After training in the Time Chamber for 30 minutes on the outside world before Super Buu lost his patience (which equals just about 7 and a half days inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber), Gotenks’ power was said to have increased dramatically.

I think that if there was a gap between pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyan Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku; that gap was closed after the children’s 7.5 days of training.

I dare say that Gotenks may have become even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. By how much was never determined, but for the sake of simplicity (without downplaying either of their power levels), let’s say that Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku were even.

Going Super Saiyan 2 doubles the power of a Super Saiyan 1, and going Super Saiyan 3 multiples the power of a Super Saiyan 2 by four.

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Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (at minimum) is 8 times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (who is more or less on the same playing field as Super Buu), but not twice as powerful.

Overall, Goku is not as powerful as Gotenks and Gohan. However, his original goal of having the boys measure up to their destinies as the protectors of the planet was realized. His intention was making them even more powerful than he was in order to save the earth from Buu.

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This same goal was similar to Goku’s plans of having Gohan exceed his power to save the world from Cell.

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Not to mention that Piccolo’s goal during the Saiyan Saga was training Gohan to become more powerful than him as well!

In any case, I think I have spelled out why I feel that Ultimate Gohan’s power is clearly superior to his father’s even at Super Saiyan 3.

Considering that Gohan is more powerful than his dad, you are probably wondering whether or not Gohan would be named as the winner before the battle even began.

I say that despite being more powerful, Gohan would not easily win the battle. This is mainly due to Goku being the superior fighter.

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Looking back at the DBZ series, I feel that Gohan’s power and combat skills were at their peak during the Cell Games.

True, Old Kai unlocked ALL of his hidden powers, but that would not unlock his combat skills and fighting instincts.

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Vegeta mentioned that Gohan’s power was a lot higher as a child, and this was when he witnessed Gohan power up to show Kibito the Super Saiyan 2 level.

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While watching his son fight with Dabura, Goku even brings up the fact that Gohan’s fighting sense was lost during his 7 years of no training.

After the battle with Cell, Gohan pretty much neglected his training in favor of studying. The end result was that his 11-year-old persona was more powerful both in strength and in fighting abilities.

Compare this to Goku, he trained for 7 years straight against warriors from across space and time during his stay on the Grand Kai’s planet.

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Before he slacked off in his training, Gohan knew everything that his father had to teach him. Their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber allowed Gohan to pick up on his father’s technique and surpass his power.

If Ultimate Gohan fought against Super Saiyan 3 Goku, I’d say that Goku would be able to not only predict what Gohan would do next, but outsmart him as well during combat. Goku taught Gohan nearly everything that he knows about fighting.

Piccolo was the only other person to train Gohan. Krillin and Gohan did “mind training” on their trip to Namek, but we know that his father and “Big Green Uncle” were his primary instructors.

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Keep in mind that Goku spent 3 years training alongside Gohan and Piccolo. This means that he has seen everything that Gohan knows about fighting and enhanced his son’s skills in the Time Chamber.

Again, Gohan is more powerful, but Goku has been able to hold his own against more powerful opponents in the past.

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It has also been shown many times that if Goku is backed into a corner, he is capable of reaching incredible new levels of power.

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Of course, we know that Gohan does the same, and that goes to show he is indeed the son of Goku.

Aside from strength, Gohan has one huge advantage over Super Saiyan 3 Goku that has not yet been mentioned. Gohan’s power would not deplete as quickly as Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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Remember that Goku admitted to Vegeta that even though he can go Super Saiyan 3; he can only hold the form for a short amount of time.

For fans who say that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is more powerful than Ultimate Gohan, I ask you this one question: Could Goku defeat his son before his Super Saiyan 3 power depletes?

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With a well placed Warp Kamehameha, I think that he could deal some heavy damage. Either way, I think this would be a tough battle.

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Super Saiyan Goku was holding his own so against Ultimate Gohan…well it was Buu’s thought form of Ultimate Gohan. Not to mention it was a filler scene, but I wanted to mention this because I know someone would say something about it in the comment section.

Something to remember about this fight was that Goku was getting exhausted, but Gohan was a thought form meaning that he could not be damaged or weakened so their battle is not really something to be used as solid evidence for this subject.

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Ultimate Gohan’s power is his maximum potential brought out to the surface, and it does not deplete his ki supply like a Super Saiyan 3 transformation would. Goku even says that Gohan’s power was higher than it was ever was even when his son was a Super Saiyan.

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The one moment that we could have and should have seen these 2 fighting was right after Gohan powered up after Old Kai unlocked his potential.

Just as Goku showed Goten and Trunks how to go Super Saiyan 3 before going back to the land of the dead, I think he should have battled Gohan before his son returned to the land of the living.

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Would have been a great touch as to how Goku shows his love for his children in the best way that he knows how.

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Buutenks reverting back to Buuccolo was another moment in the anime and manga that differed. In the anime, Goku was at Super Saiyan 3, but was doing what he could just to keep up with Buu. Fans argue that he was stalling for Gohan to find the Potara Earring. In the manga, this “fight” never happened; Buutenks went to Buuccolo without fighting Goku.

However, for fans who think Goku was more powerful than Buutenks: why would Goku want or need to permanently fuse with Ultimate Gohan…if he had the power to do it solo?

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In the manga and anime, Goku states that Gohan could defeat Buuccolo all by himself. The way he says that does seem to imply that Goku was disappointed in Buu’s drastic drop in power. I mean Goku was in a tense situation because he was desperate to fuse with Gohan, but now he was in a position where fusion was not needed because Gohan could win alone.

Really it is all up to personal interpretation about how Goku said what he said about Gohan beating Buu. I will admit that it does seem like Goku is saying that he could take Buu himself, but really I just do not think that this is the case.

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One last piece of evidence that fans like to bring up is the fact that Goku’s Ki was sensed from the Sacred Land of the Kais from Earth.

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However, when Gohan unleashed his new power, Buu was the ONLY person in the lower realm (Earth) to take notice of his power.

I think that ki sensing somehow works in reverse when it comes to comparing the lower realm (land of the living) and the other world (land of the dead).

On Supreme Kai’s planet, it makes sense that they could sense an extremely high power level from earth. However, it also makes sense that an extremely high power from the Kai planet could not be sensed from earth.

Remember that in the anime, Goku mentioned that Kid Buu was using Instant Transmission. That was how he found other planets with high ki readings during his hunt for Goku and Vegeta.

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In the manga, it was mentioned that he was using the “Kai Kai” or Instantaneous Moment used by Kibito Kai. This is a teleporting technique that does not require a ki signature for the user to transport to. This explains how in the manga, Kid Buu regenerated from his Planet Burst move on earth, and then went instantly to Supreme Kai’s planet to fight the Saiyans.

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Compared to the anime, Kid Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta when they raised their power levels to draw Buu to their location. He was on Grand Kai’s planet during that moment, and it made sense that he could track their powers since he was in the other world just as they were.

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What does this have to do with Buu sensing Gohan’s power from earth? Well Super Buu is an interesting being because he detected Gohan’s power, but Piccolo nor the boys (Goten and Trunks) were able to sense it. Perhaps it is because he is a powerful being that he could track a power that a Namek could not? Either way, it could be because Gohan was in the middle of a magical ceremony that his power was more “contained” when he unleashed it when compared to a Super Saiyan transformation.

I mean Gohan was on the verge of damaging the Kai planet by powering up, and Goku was on the verge of ripping apart the earth. The main difference was that Goku was not using Super Saiyan 3 for the first time, and he was “putting on a show” in order to stall for Trunks to find the Dragon Radar.

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We later saw that he could go Super Saiyan 3 in an instant as he did against Buutenks.

Gohan was doing the “Super Saiyan thing” as Old Kai put it in order to unleash his true power. So, I can see why the lower realm would have a difficult time tracking a high ki signature from the land of the dead.

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How else can you explain no one on earth sensing Goku’s power when he first unlocked Super Saiyan 3 during his time on Grand Kai’s planet?

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In the end, I think that Gohan has the power to win, but Goku has the skill to stay alive until he finds a weakness in Gohan’s defenses in order to land some powerful hits.

What do you think about this? Do you feel that Gohan’s power is superior, or does Super Saiyan 3 Goku have the power to surpass his son?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

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Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?

 

Dragonball Z: How Strong Is Piccolo?

by Jeremy Carden

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Piccolo is one of the underdog heroes of the Dragonball franchise. Like many of the characters on the show, the Namekian was overshadowed greatly in power by the Super Saiyans. It is a real shame because before Vegeta came into the picture he was Goku’s archenemy turned rival turned friend.

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It is highly debated just how strong the Namek is towards the end of the Dragonball Z series especially when we are introduced to the Supreme Kai.

After the Frieza Saga, the appearance of power levels or official power readings for characters is pretty much nonexistent in the series. So don’t expect me to list off power levels that read in the 100 millions or anything like that (except for the ones in the Frieza Saga that ARE official).

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What I will do is estimate Piccolo’s power around the time of the final battle with Frieza on Namek just so we have a starting point.

Frieza’s transformation into his second form marks the first time in the series where fans (and the Z-Fighters) were introduced to a character that had a power level over 1,000,000!

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It seemed clear that Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan would be no match whatsoever for the murderous tyrant. After being wished back to life and arriving on Namek, Piccolo fused with one of the last surviving Nameks (aside from Dende) in order to combat the evil of Frieza. The fusion with Nail sent Piccolo’s power through the roof and he was able to fight evenly with Frieza in his 2nd form.

When Frieza began to take the fight seriously, he was able to beat Piccolo into the dirt. It wasn’t until he removed his weighted clothing that Piccolo was able to dominate the tyrant. After Frieza transformed into his 3rd form, Piccolo was completely outclassed in both power AND speed.

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Overall, we can conclude that Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) was well over 1 million. He was able to go toe to toe with Frieza even with his weights on. When he took them off his power and speed went up. If I had to make an assumption, I’d say that without his weights and at his maximum power level…I’d clock Piccolo around 1,400,000.

As a side note, Goku’s base power after healing from the battle with Ginyu was 3 million which was of course above Piccolo. Just keep that in mind when I get to the Trunks Saga.

Now there was a 1 ½ year gap between the time of Namek’s explosion and Goku’s eventual arrival back on Earth from the Planet Yardrat.

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Something else that I’ll mention despite being filler is the Garlic Jr. Saga. Before Garlic Jr. releases the Black Water Mist on the Earth, we see Piccolo in some mountains doing some training so we know what he wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing until Goku came back.

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The threat of Garlic Jr. was soon silenced, but then came the return of Frieza who came to Earth with his father. Despite his training after the battle on Namek, it was clear that Piccolo was no match for the evil space tyrant.

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Trunks arrives and defeats Frieza and his father but then delivers a warning for the Z-Fighters (mainly Goku) about how 2 Androids will arrive to kill them all.

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From there it is non-stop training for the Z-Team…except for when Goku and Piccolo go to earn their driver’s license…

In any case, it was Goku training with Piccolo and Gohan to prepare for the upcoming threat!

3 years pass and the Z-Fighters square off against the Androids that Trunks warned them about (or so they thought)!

Super Saiyan Goku started off knocking #19 around like he was nothing until his heart virus weakened him. Enter Vegeta, who swooped in with his new Super Saiyan powers to finish the fight and then it turned into a chase through the mountains to follow Android #20.

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Piccolo was caught off guard by the old Android and lost some Ki. After receiving a Senzu Bean from Gohan, Piccolo was smacking around #20 like he was nothing.

Krillin who was amazed by this sight was quick to comment that Piccolo might actually be as strong as a Super Saiyan causing Vegeta to give a smug look and say “Right…”

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Regardless of his power, when #18 and #17 were activated by Dr. Gero…Piccolo was defeated as easily as Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta.

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Before we get to his fusion with his “other half” Kami, I think it is important to go back and reevaluate just how powerful Piccolo was after his 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the Android threat.

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Some fans believe Piccolo to be around the power of Super Saiyan Goku on Namek (which was 150 million) while other fans don’t believe that he could raise his power level that significantly without doing a Fusion with another Namek.

Personally, I don’t think it would be THAT unbelievable. Let me break it down:

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When they first began their training, we saw Goku (base form) fighting evenly with Piccolo. It was a pretty impressive sparring match and Gohan was stunned by their battle. After they disappeared, Gohan sensed them and began fighting as well.

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Keep in mind that Goku’s base power on Namek was 3 million which was above Piccolo who I wagered was around 1,400,000. Throw in a Zenkai boost after recovering from his battle with Frieza and the time he spent training on Yardrat and Goku’s power level was higher than 3 million.

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Another topic fans debate over is whether or not Goku actually trained AS a Super Saiyan while preparing for the Android threat. In retrospect, he wouldn’t really have to train as a Super Saiyan. He told Trunks that while on Yardrat, he was learned how to transform at will rather than having to be overcome by anger and rage to go Super Saiyan. Of course, he wouldn’t have full control over the form until after his time with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

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His training partners were a Namek that he was stronger than in base form and his Saiyan/Human offspring that wasn’t as powerful as he was. If Goku turned Super Saiyan boosting his power by 50, he’d completely dominate them with no effort whatsoever.

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I think that against Gohan, Goku remained in base form and trained him along with Piccolo. On the days when Chi-Chi made Gohan study rather than train (remember the deal she made with Goku was to allow Gohan to train BUT still study instead of 3 nonstop years of roughhousing), I feel that Goku and Piccolo were able to do SERIOUS training with no holding back.

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Kind of like how Goten and Gohan were able to do serious Super Saiyan combat training when Gohan wasn’t holding back his powers in order to teach Videl how to fly. I think the same applied to Goku and Piccolo’s training.

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We all know that these two do not hold back in their training and knowing Piccolo I doubt he wanted to fight or train with Goku unless he was at his best! Not to mention if Piccolo needed to work on a weakness or strength he could use his Multi-Form technique to “train himself.”

So, I honestly believe that at some points in their training Goku would go Super Saiyan so Piccolo could spar with a stronger opponent to test and increase the limits of his own powers. I mean the best way to get stronger is to train with someone stronger than you are.

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Going back to Krillin’s statement about Piccolo possibly being as powerful as a Super Saiyan, I think there might be some truth behind that. He was easily able to dominate #20 just like Super Saiyan Vegeta was able to beat down #19. It was said numerous times by #20 that he was FAR superior to the Android 19 model so there is even more proof behind that statement.

Of course, I don’t think that Piccolo could defeat Super Saiyan Vegeta or Goku. I will say that he might be able to give Super Saiyan Trunks a run for his money. Piccolo has far more training than the Saiyan from the future and he doesn’t rely on a weapon for combat. He is smarter than Trunks and I believe if it came down to those two battling it out, I believe Piccolo would win it.

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The way Trunks spoke about the Androids, it was as if he was literally saying that Frieza would be no match for them. You can see the truth in his statement because he talked about how the Androids of his time hunted him down for fun. Trunks had just killed Frieza AND King Cold with ease. It turns out that he was referring to #17 and #18, but the Z-Fighters didn’t know that. I don’t think that Piccolo would be willing to fight these new foes if he wasn’t at least as powerful as Frieza was back on Namek. His maximum power at 100% was 120 million when he fought Super Saiyan Goku.

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One last piece of evidence of Piccolo’s power increase comes from looking at Goku and Gohan’s Time Chamber training. Gohan literally begged his father to not hold back during training because if he did then he would never become a Super Saiyan. When Goku agreed to fight at his maximum Gohan did go Super Saiyan and eventually went from not being able to keep up with Goku even in base form to surpassing him!

I think the same happened when Goku trained with Piccolo (except for Piccolo surpassing Goku) and this helped Piccolo get much more powerful as a result.

With that in mind, I think that Piccolo would be able to defeat the space tyrant after his 3 years of training.

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Alright, now that we have that out of the way it is time to get to the “Nameless Namek!” With the Androids on their way to kill Goku after easily defeating the Z-Fighters, Piccolo journeyed to Kami’s Lookout to fuse with Kami.

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The Guardian of the Earth eventually caved in and allowed Piccolo to merge with him. Piccolo (now known as Kamiccolo, the Original Namek or the Nameless Namek) met the new threat the Kami felt taking shape over the past 3 years down on Earth (without telling anyone…): Cell!

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It was an impressive battle, but even though it seemed like Cell was winning it turned out to be a false front; Kamiccolo was playing possum to learn who and what Cell was along with his intentions!

This was similar to Vegeta willingly allowing #19 to absorb his Ki to confirm that the Androids absorbed their victim’s energy through the palms on their hands!

Kamiccolo said that he’d easily destroy the creature now that he had received the information needed and he was going to until Cell used the Solar Flare to escape.

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On the hunt for this new enemy, Piccolo eventually went toe to toe with Android 17! It was a neck and neck battle where we saw the true power of his fusion with Kami.

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Piccolo went from being knocked out by a punch to the gut from #17 to delivering blow after blow to the Android! Regardless it was clear that power wise these two were dead even, but the only difference was that 17’s energy level and stamina never decreased. The only way to truly win would be for Piccolo to destroy his robotic opponent.

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Actually, Piccolo was going to destroy #17 but thanks to plot…I mean a barrier…the Hellzone Grenade wasn’t able to finish the job.

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When Cell reappeared to absorb the Androids it was clear his power now made Piccolo’s seem insignificant. It came from absorbing countless human beings and increasing his power to a level here he could easily take down anything in his way (except #16).

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Even Piccolo’s most powerful attack (Light Grenade) did nothing against Cell!

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After breaking his neck and blasting away most of his stomach, Cell tossed the Namek into the ocean.

Goku saved Piccolo and Tien by taking them back to the Lookout to recover with some Senzu Beans. After Super Vegeta (Ascended Super Saiyan) botched up the battle with Cell by allowing him to absorb #18, Piccolo thought it best to take matters into his own hands and train inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber himself!

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When he reemerged, his power was enough to stun Future Trunks and made Goku remark about how impressive the boost in his power increase was. Of course, Goku pointed out that even though Piccolo was a lot more powerful than before he was still no match for Perfect Cell.

The last time we see Piccolo in a real battle was when he fought the Cell Jrs. alongside the other Z-Fighters.

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Once again we enter into debatable territory regarding how well Piccolo was holding his own against Cell’s “children.” If you ask me I think it was clear that Piccolo was one of the “leading forces” in that battle aside from the Ascended Super Saiyans Trunks and Vegeta who were having their own trouble with ONE Cell Jr. apiece!

Cell told Gohan that aside from Trunks and Vegeta no one could hold up against his children, which was false because Piccolo was doing just as well as the Super Saiyans!

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Krillin, Yamcha and Tien were obviously outclassed while Goku was still heavily damaged and weak from his battle with Perfect Cell. Tien and Yamcha had to protect him, Krillin was the one that was easily defeated and Piccolo was the “floater” pretty much helping out when needed knocking out many of the Cell Jrs. (who would annoyingly get back up over and over again).

Just a quick comment, the Cell Jrs. were holding back at first because their job was to TORMENT not KILL the Z-Fighters that was why Tien and Yamcha were able to kick a few of them around to protect Goku but were eventually knocked out for good.

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Sadly Krillin was pretty much useless and the Cell Jrs. enjoyed torturing him more than the others.

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Cell eventually told them to start killing the heroes in order to finally fuel Gohan’s rage enough to the point where his hidden powers would rise to the surface. That was when they started going for blood and all of the Z-Fighters (including Piccolo) were finally down until Gohan went Super Saiyan 2.

Now you are probably wondering how Piccolo was able to hold his own despite not being a Super Saiyan. Once again it is time to break things down;

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I believe that after his Time Chamber training, Piccolo was at least around the power of Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta after their first time going in the chamber.

As I mentioned before, we don’t know the power levels of the characters after their battle with Frieza. So for this example, I’ll be using just small numbers and maybe fractions to prove my point.

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Kamiccolo was more powerful than Imperfect Cell (before absorbing 1,000s of humans), even with #17 and stronger than the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. I don’t think that Piccolo was twice the power of a Super Saiyan though.

When Vegeta came out of the Time Chamber, Goku said that he’d have to AT LEAST triple his power to stand a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell which caused Vegeta to laugh. This implies that he at least tripled his power or went above even that.

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Theoretically I think that he tripled the power of his base and Super Saiyan form. However, he took it a step further by achieving the Ascended Super Saiyan form.

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With that being said here is what I think; I’d put Kamiccolo as a 5 while the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans would be a 3. During his time training, I feel that Vegeta was not only able to catch up to Kamicclo and close the gap in their power but he took it a step further by going Ascended Super Saiyan!

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Something else that might help my claim is how Vegeta reacted to Piccolo when he came out of the chamber. While Trunks was stunned at his power increase, Vegeta insulted the Namek saying that he hadn’t changed at all and that all he was doing was wasting time while the real warriors had to wait for him until he came out. On that note, Vegeta smirked as he closed the door behind him saying that Goku had better watch out because he was once again going to claim his spot as the best in the universe.

Now the one thing in this scene that really caught my attention was how Piccolo reacted to Vegeta’s statement; he didn’t say ONE word. This was a huge contrast to the Piccolo we’ve seen in the past who was quick to fly off at an insult especially from Vegeta.

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If you ask me, I feel that the year spent in the Time Chamber was more than just a power-up for Piccolo. I think the time alone training allowed Piccolo to become more “united” with Kami by meditation and once again becoming the one Nameless Namek in both body AND mind.

Kami was more “mature” than Piccolo Jr. and was able to hold his head high even when insulted and this showed itself from Kamiccolo when Vegeta insulted him. If you ask me, Vegeta (like Trunks) could sense Piccolo’s power-up but refused to acknowledge it. Again proving or suggesting that the Namek was once again in the ranks of the Super Saiyans.

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Going along with my above statement, I think that Piccolo at least tripled his power level allowing him to be on the same playing field as the Ascended Super Saiyans.

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Despite going in the Time Chamber AGAIN for a second year separately, Trunks and Vegeta were not able to boost their powers as impressively as the first time so they might have once again surpassed Piccolo but not by that much.

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When Vegeta did exit the Time Chamber the second time, Piccolo (without even turning around having his back turned to Vegeta) commented that he was impressed by Vegeta’s power but it was still not enough to defeat Cell…

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The Saiyan Prince just smirked at the comment!

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Finally, we get to the Majin Buu Saga which takes place 7 years after the events of the Cell Games. Piccolo was now living on Kami’s Lookout teaching Dende more about how to be Earth’s Guardian alongside Mr. Popo. Unlike Gohan, I doubt that Piccolo just sat around doing nothing. I’m sure that like Vegeta he was training in the event of another threat that would put the Earth in peril.

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Here we come to another hot topic of discussion: Was Piccolo REALLY weaker than Supreme Kai?

In the manga and anime, Piccolo says that the difference between himself and Supreme Kai (Shin) was dimensions apart in terms of power. Now I’m going to be honest and say that I do not believe that Shin could defeat Piccolo…depending on the circumstances.

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Keep in mind that Piccolo looked like he crapped his pants (that is if Nameks even need to use the restroom) when he thought that Shin was the Grand Kai. It stands to reason that it was the “Kami in him” that made him hesitate and ponder Shin’s true identity instead of fighting. That only makes sense because being Earth’s guardian and knowing about King Kai and other of the Otherworld deities, he would be the one to make Piccolo hesitant about facing a god of higher ranking than himself.

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Piccolo even said that he wasn’t able to focus his power in order to fight Shin. Now, as I mentioned before in the Cell Saga I’d place Piccolo around the power of the Ascended Super Saiyans. I don’t think that he went without training for 7 years like most of the other Z-Fighters.

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If I were to estimate Piccolo’s power during the Babidi and Majin Buu Sagas, I’d say he would probably be around the strength of the Full Power Super Saiyans (Goku and Gohan). I don’t think he was as powerful as Gohan was when he defeated Cell as a Super Saiyan 2.

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Considering how Shin was scared to death of Dabura (who Goku compared to Perfect Cell), I would put Shin around the power of an Ascended Super Saiyan from the Cell Saga. So the gap between Shin and Piccolo would be there but not as big as you might expect it to be.

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Now something that might blow my theory out of the water is the comment Dabura made to Babidi before attacking the Z-Fighters who thought they were well hidden up on the cliffs outside of Babidi’s spaceship; “7 in all…each of them strong…we cannot use the energy from Supreme Kai or Kibito but 3 of them possess energies that will go a long way towards reviving Majin Buu.”

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Babidi tells him to get rid of the small fry (Piccolo, Krillin and Kibito), keep the Supreme Kai alive so he could deal with him personally and lure the other 3 (Gohan, Goku and Vegeta) into his spaceship.

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In one way, you could interpret Dabura as being able to sense the hidden power (Super Saiyan powers) of the Saiyans despite them being in base form. I doubt he was saying that in base form the 3 Saiyans were more powerful than Piccolo. Come on now, I really don’t think that was the case.

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He was probably saying that out of their group only the Saiyans had the power necessary to bring the revival of Majin Buu much sooner than originally anticipated. I can actually agree with this because Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (who Vegeta pointed out as being a lot stronger when he fought Cell) had his power stolen and his Ki alone was enough to bring Buu’s ball to nearly 50% full! Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan was and during their battle in a short period of time the power lost by Super Saiyan 2 Goku brought the ball to 100%. I don’t think Piccolo would be able to do the same with his power so I can see why Dabura wouldn’t think much of the Namek’s power when compared to the Saiyans.

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Aside from being turned to stone by Dabura, he easily killed (or so he thought) Babidi and then helped teach Goten and Trunks the Fusion Technique.

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His “last stand” so to speak was after Gotenks’ fusion time split and he wanted to fight to the end with Super Buu. This caused Trunks to say “doing the best you can” would not be enough because even as a fused Super Saiyan 3 they still couldn’t defeat the monster!

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That was pretty much the last “battle” Piccolo attempted to engage in for the series. He was absorbed by Super Buu, killed when Kid Buu blew up the Earth and revived by the Dragonballs of Namek before enjoying 10 years of peace before the end of the series.

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I don’t count the “Piccolo” that we see in Buu’s mind fighting against Goku and Vegeta. Just like Gotenks and Gohan, he was just a thought form created by Buu’s mind and not the actual Piccolo.

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Piccolo does appear in the events of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return along with Battle of Gods…where he was easily dispatched by Bills with a pair of chopsticks!

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Piccolo passed on fighting in the 28th World Tournament saying that “He was too old to keep up with Goku and the others.” Despite the fact that he was 31 (32 physically if you count his year in the Time Chamber) which made him only 4 years older than Gohan!

So, he might have done some unseen training between the fight with Kid Buu to Goku’s fight with Uub. However, we don’t see him fighting so I can’t really pinpoint where his power would be. It seems clear that even if he trained it was still no match for the Saiyans given how willingly he stepped down in favor of fighting in the tournament.

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The same can be applied to Dragonball GT, another 10 year gap between DBZ and GT where peace reigns over the Earth. Again, we don’t see Piccolo fighting just appearing after sensing the battle between Gohan and Baby Goten. Baby had taken over Gohan and with one Kamehameha Wave it seemed like he had killed Piccolo.

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He appears to save the Earth (and the universe) from the destructive force of the Blackstar Dragonballs by dying and going to Otherworld.

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When the threat of Super 17 appeared, Piccolo once again stepped up and this time it was to help Goku escape from Hell. In order to help save the Earth, Piccolo remained trapped in Hell so that Goku could protect everyone from the deadly Android. During his time there, it was like he had become the “caretaker” of Hell like Pikkon was in DBZ.

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Goku promised that someday he would get out of Hell and we are brought 100 years into the future where the series ends with Goku Jr. fighting Vegeta Jr. It is unknown if Goku kept his promise and got Piccolo out of Hell or not. One thing is for sure, if Piccolo was left in Hell there is no doubt his power increased considerably during his time there in a dimension full of villains from his past!

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Overall, I’d say Piccolo would possibly be around the power of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan during the Cell Games had he kept up his training after the battle with Kid Buu.

What do you think?

If you liked what you just read and want to see even more Dragonball blogs and theories be sure to follow my blog! Also I’m on Twitter @jccarden and I have a DBZ Facebook Page called Vegeta Is The Best.

Dragonball GT: Adult Gotenks

by Jeremy Carden

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Why didn’t Gohan go Mystic?

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How come Vegeta doesn’t go Super Saiyan 3?

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Was there a reason that Pan never went Super Saiyan?

These are some of the MANY questions that fans ask about the GT series. However there is one that baffles the minds of fans and makes them very angry due to the absence of one particular character in GT. What a lot of fans wanted to see was the adult version of Gotenks.

One of the most impressive things to me personally would be if Goten and Trunks got the Fusion Dance correct on their first attempt. There was a 10 year gap between Z and GT so Gotenks probably didn’t appear during that time.

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They did use the Fusion Dance in the movie/special that took place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu, Yo! Son Goku and his friends return! However they got it incorrect on their first try and then got it right on their second try admitting that they were out of practice.

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In the next movie Battle of Gods which takes place 3 years later, they get it down on their first attempt BUT a quick spanking from Bills takes Super Saiyan Gotenks out of the fight.

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Well moving on 5 years later we see Goten and Trunks at age 17 and 18 but no sign of Gotenks most likely due to no major threat at the end of Z it is just them fighting in the World Tournament.

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So, moving on 10 years later we arrive at the beginning of GT. Originally Vegeta and Chi-Chi were going to send the two slacker Saiyans into space with Goku to find the Blackstar Dragonballs. However due to Pan basically doing something that contributed to this series going down the toilet…

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She pressed the start button to go into space leaving Goten behind so for a year there was no Gotenks in sight. The reason I say year is since they have a full year to find the balls and bring them back before the Earth explodes.

I’ll go on a limb and say what a lot of fans might just agree on; there were PLENTY of times when Gotenks could have or should have made an appearance!

I’m sure if Goten were in space with Trunks and Goku instead of Pan, Gotenks was going to throw down on some galactic monsters and robots!

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Come on I could see Gotenks fighting against General Rilldo or Luud and those would have been some interesting battles instead of seeing a Kid Goku just beat every down like they were nothing.

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Another reason I’m confident in Gotenks being seen during their travels in space is because Goten AND Trunks had not been training at all. Think about all of the time Trunks was EASILY taken down during battles.

  1. Ledgic wiped him out with one punch
  2. Cardinal Mutchy Mutchy distracted him with a whip and threw him to the ground leaving it to Goku to finish him off
  3. Mutchy held off Trunks for awhile with a pile of bricks thanks to his psychic abilities and it was only after turning Super Saiyan was he able to get them off of him
  4. One mouth blast took him out of the battle with Luud again leaving it up to Goku to win (along with Pan’s help)

Just a few examples of how Trunks’ lack of training didn’t do anything positive while traveling with Goku. It pretty much proves that Vegeta was right with him and Goten being way too soft during the times of peace.

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Moving on to later in the Baby Saga, Gotenks should have appeared during the fight with the giant Golden Ape Baby. However, Goku said that Gotenks would not be enough even if Gohan, Gotenks and himself fought.

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He then opted to take their energy to recharge himself to a full power Super Saiyan 4. The flaw I see in this is that Gotenks most likely could have offered more Ki to Goku than Goten and Trunks separately. Not to mention they probably could have recharged Goku even faster than they did by doing the Fusion.

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I would have loved to see Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks trying his hand at stopping that rampaging ape!

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Then in the Super 17 Saga, even though it would not have been necessary (except against General Rilldo most likely) to take out all of the returning villains Gotenks could have been used to take them out with ease.

Alright now here is where we get to the point that it was outright ridiculous for Goten and Trunks to have not fused! The 2 Android 17s fused into Super 17 but Goten and Trunks opted to fight solo…

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Seriously, the two Androids fused to become a much stronger being but Gotenks did not appear to fight? Really the writers screwed up on that one! I know with Gotenks being as cocky as he is, I’m sure he’d get in some massive Ki attacks that would have just made Super 17 stronger but still it would have been cool to see.

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Finally we get to the Shadow Dragons Saga when all of the Z Fighters unite to help Goku against Syn/Omega Shenron. Again the Saiyans are used as “batteries” to recharge Goku so he could surpass his limits as a Super Saiyan 4.

Gotenks should have appeared to help charge up Goku faster but again…oh well you know what happens!

When trying to stall Omega for Goku and Vegeta to fuse, it makes sense that Goten and Trunks don’t fuse because those two and Gohan gave their Super Saiyan powers to Goku so them not even going Super Saiyan to stall Omega was understandable since their powers probably hadn’t returned yet.

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After Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta makes the scene, Majuub (who everyone seemed to forget about after he got blasted in the face by Syn) appears saying that they should fuse to help out. However Gohan points out that their power levels wouldn’t be equal since Majuub got injured so badly and that he should heal first.

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Then in the final stand against Omega before his defeat by the Universal Spirit Bomb, Gohan/Trunks/Goten return to help Vegeta fight off the dragon but are quickly defeated. Again I was another chance for Gotenks to appear to help give them a better chance even if it was a slim one.

It is a shame Gotenks had multiple opportunities to appear in GT but the writers just didn’t deliver. What I would have loved to see more than anything else was if Gotenks would have any new or crazy attacks in his arsenal. Remember Goten and Trunks were not even 10 and they had deadly attacks like the Super Ghosts and Galactic Doughnut! I think that is what would have made me laugh the most seeing Gotenks goofy around with dangerous opponents like Omega or Super 17.

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However in the Japanese Arcade Game Dragonball Heroes we are finally given an Adult Gotenks!

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What a lot of fans question is the change in Gotenks outfit; black undershirt, Capsule Corp. boots and Trunks’ gloves instead of the traditional Fusion Dance outfit. I think it is an interesting change so they would not look like another Gogeta after fusing but that is just my opinion.

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This seriously would have been one of the things that could have improved GT. In the trailer for DB Heroes, Adult Gotenks appears fighting Oceanus Shenron along with other characters in the game. Not to jump off topic but I think that if the Shadow Dragon Saga did not just focus a majority of time on Pan and Goku it would have been a lot better than it was.

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Something I might cover in another blog is my opinion on how the Shadow Dragon Saga should have been Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Majuub, Goten and Trunks going off to different locations to fight individual Shadow Dragons before coming up against Syn Shenron before a final showdown with Omega. That again would have been a chance for Gotenks to fight in the GT series!

 

What are your thoughts on the absence of Gotenks in the GT series? And do you feel that his appearance in DB Heroes is a hint of things to come in future DB games?

Is Super Saiyan Gotenks More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

by Jeremy Carden

This is something that a lot of people say is a crazy decision on my part in terms of me thinking two toddlers fused into a Super Saiyan could be more powerful than an experienced warrior who is 100% Saiyan and has a 400 times increase in his Super Saiyan 3 form.

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Here is why I believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is MORE powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku:

Now when you think about it there are technically “two” Gotenks when I’m talking about this subject; we have pre-Time Chamber Gotenks and post-Time Chamber Gotenks.

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The boys were training in the Time Chamber for 30 minutes (and 1 extra minute for rest; 6 hours in the chamber). With one minute equaling 6 hours that means they were inside for 180 hours and that equals 7.5 days.

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So, Goten and Trunks had a little over a week of training before facing off with Super Buu in the Time Chamber, on the Lookout (destroying it) and finally down on Earth with their Fusion splitting.

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The reason why I say that pre-Time Chamber SS Gotenks is POSSIBLY stronger than SS3 Goku is by using Fat Buu as the “control” in theory of calculating his power.

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SS3 Goku could have killed the Fat Majin Buu in their first fight if he really tried but decided to not finish the battle in order for new heroes to emerge

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He then powered down back to base form after Trunks retrieved the Dragon Radar and asked Buu for a favor: to wait 2 days until a new challenger arrived on the scene who would give him a better fight than even a Super Saiyan 3.

That right there showed that he felt the boys as a fused being would be enough to defeat Majin Buu.

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Remember Trunks begged for him to teach them how to use Super Saiyan 3 to fight Majin Buu. However, Goku told him that even if they both went to level 3 and fought Majin Buu it would not be enough and he made a valid point.

He firmly stated that Fusion was the ONLY way to win the battle. So that shows that Goku had more faith in Fusion rather than Super Saiyan 3 being the technique needed to kill Majin Buu.

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True, base form Gotenks was easily defeated when he first went to fight Buu. He was nearly killed by the weight sensitive Majin Buu.

Super Saiyan Gotenks in my opinion would have been able to kill Majin Buu.

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As to whether or not Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-Time Chamber) was more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku has yet to be determined. I figure that since the two of them (in my opinion) would have been able to defeat Fat Buu, it places them in the same power level realm.

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Though it is uncertain as to which one would have the upper hand in battle. Keep in mind that it was only after training in the Time Chamber did Gotenks have moves like the Super Ghost, Galatic Doughnut and other deadly moves so I’d imagine him using techniques like the Big Tree Cannon or the Kamehameha (or Kamekameha as Goten says it).

If he wasn’t then Goku wouldn’t have bothered teaching them the Fusion. If Goku KNEW the fusion was not going to be enough to stop Buu, he would have done the job himself. Also, he was more determined to teach the boys Fusion than SS3.

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Hearing Goku and Piccolo talk about how a Super Saiyan Fusion would be more than enough to stop Buu without the need of learning SS3 was similar to Old Kai telling Goku that the Potara Fusion in base form would be more than enough to defeat Super Buu without needing to transform into a regular Super Saiyan!

Now after that week of training in the Time Chamber, Goten and Trunks not only polished off the Fusion Technique; Piccolo commented on how much they improved with their Ki aligning perfectly from the start and their dance execution was flawless.

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But they came up with dozens of new attacks (most of them ridiculous just to put on a show before finishing Buu right from the start; Trunks’ idea), reaching SS2 (which they skipped over) and SS3.

After fusing, Piccolo said that Gotenks’ power level (base form) was much higher than it was previously when they fused for the first time and he went off only to receive a beating from Fat Buu.

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Of course base form Gotenks wasn’t even able to inflict any (noticeable) damage to Super Buu.

After transforming, into Super Gotenks (Super Saiyan) things were a bit different. True, Buu was still able outclass him in power and speed.

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The only time that Gotenks did any damage was with a head butt and then the Super Ghost move that blew Buu up multiple times.

Alright, so basically the reason I say that Super Gotenks post-Time Chamber is stronger than Goku is because of that week of training the boys did. True, Super Gotenks wasn’t strong enough to defeat Super Buu BUT I think they grew powerful enough to close the gap between themselves and SS3 Goku and go even higher than that.

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SS3 Goku cannot, I repeat cannot defeat Super Buu. I’m not just saying that based on what Goku told Vegeta in Buu’s head about how they were not able to defeat Buu as they are (SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta being their max power to fight once they escaped). SS3 Gotenks could not get the job done (well maybe if his Fusion time and SS3 power didn’t run out…). And he is stronger than Super Buu hands down!

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I know SS3 Gotenks being AT LEAST x8 stronger than SS3 Goku is a stretch but look at it this way; remember SS4 Gogeta is said to be dozens of times more powerful than a “regular/un-fused” SS4. Now how come it is hard to believe that SS3 Gotenks is at least x8 more powerful than a “regular/un-fused” SS3?

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Don’t get me wrong, Mystic Gohan is above him AND Goku that is just a simple fact. However, with no power levels being measured in the Buu Saga, Zenkai was pretty much written out after the Frieza Saga (well maybe a couple were shown in the Android/Cell Sagas) it is really difficult to say how accurate I think I am about this.

My final thoughts are based on this topic; being more powerful and stronger than someone doesn’t mean you are going to be able to defeat them!

Just because Gotenks exceeds Goku’s power doesn’t mean that he could beat him. Remember SS3 Gotenks can only last 5 minutes not to mention using that form also decreases the remaining 25 minutes of the Fusion left (if Gotenks were to go SS3 right after fusing). I think that Goku can hold his Super Saiyan 3 power for at least 10 minutes given his battles with Fat and Kid Buu.

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With Instant Transmission, durability, experience and tactics on his side, Goku would be able to hold his own POSSIBLY besting the powerful tike. Although he was getting his behind handed to him by Buutenks; Super Buu, Piccolo AND Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He might be able to do pretty well against the boy(s).

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Now that is why I feel that Super Gotenks is more powerful than SS3 Goku. Whether or not you believe he is x8 more powerful when he powers up to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is up to you but that is just going by the SS multipliers. True Gotenks did “skip” SS2 but that doesn’t erase the x2 increase over his SS form along with the x4 increase from SS3 making him 8 times more powerful than his SS form which again I believe is more powerful than SS3 Goku.

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Remember back in the Cell Saga, he wanted Gohan to get more powerful than him and the end result was a success!

Now in the Buu Saga, he wanted to step back and let the boys handle the burden of protecting the planet.

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Overall, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan were more powerful than even Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So again, his objective of passing the torch was fulfilled.

Alright now that MY thoughts are out of the way, it is now time for you to voice your own opinion on the subject. Again please explain WHY you feel a certain way about this.

Which form of Majin Buu is the strongest?

by Jeremy Carden

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This is one debate that is still going on between Dragonball fans. One has to wonder if this debate is discussed more than the Goku vs. Superman issue.

In any case, we all know that there are multiple forms of Majin Buu with Kid Buu being the original form until he started absorbing other beings into his body or when he split into a Good and Evil Buu.

The point of this blog is to go over my personal ranking of the Majin Buus from strongest to weakest.

I’ll be using facts, dialogue, fights and evidence from both the anime AND manga. This will help give you all an understanding of how and why I rank the Majin Buus in the order that I do from strongest to weakest.

Also understand that despite filler not being considered canon, I will use it for my discussion.

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For example, Super Saiyan 3 Goku’s “fight” with Super Buu Gotenks/Piccolo absorbed (Buutenks) was filler.

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So was Goku and Vegeta’s fight with Super Buu Gohan Absorbed (Buuhan).

Here are the Buus up for discussion:

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Kid Buu

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Buff Buu-Kid Buu after absorbing South Supreme Kai

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Fat Buu-Buff Buu after absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai/Daikaioh

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Good/Mr. Buu-The Good Buu after splitting from his evil side

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Evil Buu-the Evil Buu after splitting from his good side

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Super Buu-the resulting Buu after Evil Buu eats Good Buu

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Super Buu-Gotenks/Piccolo absorbed or “Buutenks”

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Super Buu-Piccolo/Goten/Trunks absorbed or “Buuccolo”

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Super Buu-Gohan/Goten/Trunks/Piccolo absorbed or “Buuhan”

Now here is how I rank them from strongest to weakest:

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1. Buuhan

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2. Buutenks

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3. Buff Buu

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4. Buuccolo

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5. Super Buu

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6. Fat Buu

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7. Kid Buu

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8. Evil Buu

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9. Good Buu

These are the topics that I will be going over to support my theories:

  • The power of the individual Buus including things like speed, durability, power and danger level
  • The power of the beings that he absorbed
  • Comparing the split between Good and Evil Buu to that of the split of the Original Namek
  • Comparing Fat Buu’s “endless power” to Gohan’s power drop after the Cell Games

Overall, I’m going to throw everything I have at this in order to prove why thoughts on this so I hope you appreciate the hard work but also have patience because I know this is a long blog but it is covering some solid information in order to help you understand what I’m talking about.

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Another thing that I do want to make note of is that I will not be using Uub or Majuub in my rankings because I don’t think it would be fair because he is Majin Buu reincarnated and before fusing with Good Buu he was 100% human. I will however make reference to him a couple of times though.

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And no I will not be including the Majin Buus from the video games where he absorbs Frieza, Cell, Vegeta or Yamcha/Tien!

So, to get things started let’s take a look at what Majin Buu is. He is a creation by the evil wizard Bibidi who made Buu as a weapon of destruction in his conquest to rule the galaxy.

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As Kid Buu laid waste to planet after planet in an endless domino effect of destruction there was little to no opposition that could stop him.

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Even when the Supreme Kais came to fight none of them were able to defeat Buu.

Later on, Shin or Supreme Kai or Eastern Supreme Kai (whatever you want to call him) told Vegeta that back in his time all of the Supreme Kais were defeated by Buu and would have been able to destroy Frieza with a single blow

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In the anime, he says that the Supreme Kais were all 1,000 times more powerful than Frieza

Just a couple of comments about that statement:

Due to Supreme Kai’s lack of knowledge about the Super Saiyans, I think it is safe to say that he also did not know about Frieza’s multiple forms.

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With that in mind I feel that he was comparing his former Kai associates to Frieza 1st form which was clocked at 530,000.

By doing math based on his statement 530,000 times 1,000 would equal 530,000,000.

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That number is over triple Frieza’s 100% power which was 120,000,000 but again this is all assumption based on Shin’s comment to Vegeta.

In any case, the Kais themselves were powerful but not powerful enough to defeat Kid Buu who effortlessly took them all down.

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Save for South Kai and Grand Supreme Kai but I will get to my thoughts on their individual powers below.

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Majin Buu can regenerate from molecules as Piccolo mentioned when Super Buu reformed after being blasted by the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack followed by Piccolo and Super Saiyan Gotenks blasting the remaining bits of Buu to dust and the smoke from that reformed into Super Buu once again.

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He can mold his body into different shapes and forms

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A “volleyball” as seen when he uses the Mystic Ball Attack

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Like the Nameks can extend and retract his limbs for long range combat

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Fat Buu entraps people in his stomach to suffocate them by expanding his body

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Super Buu has been shown to liquefy himself and “force feed” his enemy until their bodies explode into pieces

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Something else worthy of note is his ability to break through dimension walls however it seems that he is only capable of doing this if he is EXTREMELY angry

Buu has a LONG list of powers that make him a very dangerous and unpredictable foe

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His most famous power seems to be the Candy Beam which changes his opponents or anything that it hits into the food item of his choice; mostly candy or desserts

The only forms of Buu not shown to have this ability is Buff, Kid and Evil Buu. It is understood that Buutenks could use the technique as well but of course I’m sure he wouldn’t change his own competition (Mystic Gohan) into candy.

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Buu’s speed varies depending on what form he is in. It seems safe to say that Buuhan is the fastest Majin Buu with the only being seen to be faster than him being Vegito.

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Kid Buu is arguably the fastest but only if you throw the Instant Transmission or Instantaneous Movement into the equation but remember that is a technique not his own natural speed

I mean on multiple occasions Buu is seen outmaneuvering the Z-Fighters;

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Fat Buu appeared in front of the fleeing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who told Shin that he was pretty confident about his speed

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Super Buu after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo was easily able to swat around Mystic Gohan

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Vegeta was no match for Kid Buu’s speed regardless of what form he was in whether it was base or Super Saiyan 2

Another thing to consider is that Majin Buu has an innate ability to mimic techniques used against him in battle.

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This was seen when Fat Buu used a Kamehameha Wave on Super Saiyan 3 Goku after Goku used it against him to blow a hole in his chest

Kid Buu did the same just by seeing Kibito Kai using the Instantaneous Movement to escape the exploding Earth

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During Uub’s fight with Goku at the end of DBZ, Vegeta mentions that the kid is learning how to fight while he’s fighting

Alright, so with all of these abilities taken into account let’s break it down into individual categories: stamina and durability

Stamina

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This has to be my favorite thing to discuss concerning Majin Buu because like the Energizer Bunny, this guy just keeps going and going and going…

There are only a few times when I can remember Majin Buu actually being tired

When Good Buu tries to hit Evil Buu with a melee barrage but not one punch lands he is seen catching his breath before being kicked away by Evil Buu

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One could argue that it was because Buu had just lost a lot of power in the fission with Evil Buu taking more of his power and abilities leaving the Good Buu in a weakened state

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Super Buu wasn’t tired but was seen reeling after a head butt from Gotenks

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Buuhan was extremely tired from his fight with Vegito even to the point of not being able to fully regenerate but I’ll get to that once I discuss his durability

Kid Buu’s only time showing to be even remotely exhausted was when he delivered a fierce barrage of attacks to Good Buu’s stomach and said “Whew…” before wiping his forehead.

Let’s take a moment and discuss Kid Buu’s stamina for a second because I feel like he went through the most:

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After reverting from Super to Buff to Kid Buu, he shots a Ki blast strong enough to destroy Earth but it is deflected by Vegeta so he uses the Planet Burst which has enough power to destroy Earth TEN TIMES!!!

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He then destroys countless planets one after the other before going to Grand Kai’s Planet and easily took out the fighters there including Pikkon, Olibu, Krillin and all the others before being “called” to Supreme Kai’s Planet to fight against Goku and Vegeta

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He is asleep before Goku powers up at Super Saiyan 2 to fight then goes Super Saiyan 3 before passing out due to exhaustion

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Buu then takes out base form Vegeta before he engages in battle with SS3 Goku once again

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After taking down Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta with ease…

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In comes Mr. Satan!

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Followed by a bout with the Good Buu

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Then ANOTHER round with base form Vegeta

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And finally we see Kid Buu vs. the Spirit Bomb!

He even manages to push back the bomb on a weakened Goku something no other villain has been able to do!

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Until he finally meets his end when Goku’s power is restored and he goes Super Saiyan to finish the fight.

BUT WAIT!!!!

How did Kid Buu send back the Spirit Bomb although he doesn’t have a pure heart?

Just like the Super Saiyan transformation, the word “pure” could mean A LOT of things. Kid Buu does have a GOOD pure heart like Goku. Kid Buu had a pure EVIL heart!

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King Kai nor any other being in Dragonball for that matter makes a good distinction of pure in terms of good and evil. I mean Krillin handled the bomb and although he isn’t evil, Krillin isn’t pure either. He lusts but not Roshi-level lust for women due to his desire for a girlfriend. I mean do you remember his girlfriend (filler) Marron?

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Also remember the bomb was created by Krillin it was handed to Krillin by Goku and then pure hearted Gohan was able to bounce it back at the off guard Vegeta

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Keep in mind that in Super Android 13, Goku turned Super Saiyan but it was only after the bomb was created so it could explain why Goku’s body absorbed it because the bomb was fading away and instead of letting that energy escape, Goku opted to use it to grant him the energy to finish the killer robot

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Frieza is more or less 100% evil like Kid Buu but he was straining to push it back because he was off guard but not strong enough to push it back like Kid Buu

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So, it could be a matter of power vs. pure beings. With that in mind it could just be that Kid Buu had more energy than the exhausted Goku and was able to push back the Spirit Bomb until Goku is restored to full power once again

Of course in the manga, after regenerating from Earth’s explosion he goes immediately to where Goku and Vegeta are to battle

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Not only that, the battles that took place were Kid Buu vs. SS3 Goku, then SS2 Vegeta, a brief comical fight with Hercule and his last “serious” bout was against Good Buu followed by Vegeta stalling him for Goku to launch the Spirit Bomb

In any case, Kid Buu is pretty much all but unstoppable because as Goku pointed out fighting against him was like fighting a hamster on a wheel because no matter how much Ki he puts out he still doesn’t get anywhere.

But then again the same can be said for anyone fighting against Buu because he is pretty much all but unstoppable.

Durability

This is another interesting topic because it is nearly impossible to generate an attack powerful enough to completely destroy Majin Buu so not even a trace, cell or atom of him remained.

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The only attack that was able to do so was the Super Spirit Bomb.

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I will say that I do not believe Buu to be as durable as Cell.

Why?

Take a look at Krillin’s Destructo Disk for example;

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After throwing it at Perfect Cell, the attack bounced off his neck and then crumbled to pieces with Cell just standing there in the process.

When using the attack on Kid Buu, it was able to cut him in half.

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Even when Goku returned to Earth, he launched a surprise disk that cut Buutenks in half as well.

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So he isn’t completely indestructible but thanks to regeneration and an almost limitless stamina he is all but unbeatable.

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Final Kamehameha

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Though as seen after suffering from Super Vegito’s Perfect Game and Final Kamehameha attacks, Buu’s regeneration does have limits and if he is blasted too much the process sometimes does an incomplete regeneration and Buu has to put strain on himself (similar to Nail on Namek) to make himself whole again.

The only fighters shown to overpower or at least hold their own against Buu was Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Vegito and arguably South Kai during his brawl with Kid Buu and Grand Supreme Kai against Buff Buu.

Danger Level

Kid Buu MIGHT win in terms of which Buu is the most dangerous and I agree due to him being 100% evil, a killing machine and basically doing what he was created for; being a weapon of galactic destruction

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Heck he even tried to kill his creator once!

The only Buu I’d challenge Kid Buu with in this category is Buuhan but only due to him being far more powerful not to mention smarter (thanks to Piccolo in his head). True he isn’t as unpredictable because Kid Buu will either toy with you or simply kill you along with the planet you are on.

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However, Super Buu can break through dimensions when pissed off and while Kid Buu does have a hyper scream I don’t know if he can do that with his Kiai. It might have to do more with power and anger than just anger. Super Buu was much weaker than Buuhan and he was only able to open up ONE dimensional wall to exit the Time Chamber while Buuhan opened up MANY gateways if you wanna look at it that way. Now if it is about power then Kid Buu would fall short.

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks mimicked the ability but remember Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo tried multiple times but it wasn’t enough but when he went Super Saiyan 3 did it everything just fell into place and BOOM they escaped so indeed power might play a factor.

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Buuhan was about to rip apart the ENTIRE universe if Vegito wasn’t able to punch his lights out.

Kid Buu could destroy the universe given time and thanks to Instant Transmission it would be one planet blowing up after the next.

However, I might have to lean toward Super Buu or Buuhan in this category due to him breaking down dimensional walls all at once!

Now let’s take a look at the opponents who Buu squared off against and yes I will be including filler anime fights

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1. Fat Buu vs. Dabura

Dabura mocked Buu for his behavior and he paid for it! Buu simply gouged his eyes and kicked him into a mountain. It stunned Gohan and Shin while Babidi screamed with glee at how powerful his “pet Majin” was. For the first time we see Goku stunned at the sudden show of Ki from Buu while he and Vegeta were far off in their battle.

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2. Fat Buu vs. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

While trying to escape, Buu swatted Gohan into the ground while beating down the Supreme Kai and when Gohan got back up he kicked Buu only for the point of impact to pop back out of Buu’s head like nothing happened. Kind of like a memory foam mattress and while Gohan rushed Buu he easily blasted Gohan into the air. But due to Shin’s interference he was able to save Gohan’s life.

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3. Fat Buu vs. Supreme Kai

Shin threw everything he had whether it was the huge Ki blast seen in the picture or an eye Kiai blast it was clear that he was not match for the Majin who was about to eat him until…

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4. Fat Buu vs. Dabura (Round 2)

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Dabura threw a spear that Buu easily pulled out of his stomach and regenerated from. The Demon King still damaged from Buu’s earlier attack threw a barrage of melee and then Ki blasts that did nothing to Majin Buu whole then dodged his Stone Spit and countered with his Candy beam turning him into a giant cookie ending Dabura’s life

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5. Fat Buu vs. Majin Vegeta

The 100% Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta (thanks to Goku’s Senzu Bean) put up a good fight but was unable to keep up with Buu’s constant regeneration and even with the Final Explosion blowing him to bits…

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Buu reformed!

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6. Fat Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku

The debut of the Super Saiyan 3 form was the first to really show Majin Buu a REAL challenge. However, the more Ki Goku put out fighting, it seemed that Buu’s power continued to increase as well. Indeed showing that we never really see the Fat Buu’s FULL power due to captivity in his ball capping his power and this “exercise” helped him tap into it again

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7. Fat Buu vs. base Gotenks

The cocky Fused Gotenks was easily defeated by Fat Buu and had to go back to the Lookout with a bruised body and ego after going on about how he was going to bring back Buu dead!

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8. Good Buu vs. Evil Buu

If you ask me I think Evil Buu took over 50% of the power after splitting from Good Buu given how EASILY he was able to defeat his “better” half. I’d estimate at least 60%-75% of the power was given to him and after using his trademark move, Evil Buu blew back the Candy Ray to turn Good Buu into chocolate (talk about karma!)

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9. Super Buu vs. base Gotenks

This fight was mostly just for show thanks to Trunks’ plan of putting on a show and then surprising Buu with his Super Saiyan forms. Even after his first melee brawl he realized that Super Buu was more powerful than he thought

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10. Super Buu vs. Super Saiyan Gotenks

After kicking it up a notch showing that he could go Super Saiyan after fusing, Gotenk was still no match for Buu’s power and speed but due to his multiple and wacky attacks he managed to keep Buu at bay

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11. Super Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

This was a great fight showing that Gotenks proved the old saying “Anything you can do I can do better!” Buu was irritating Gotenks but whatever the Majin threw at him, Gotenks would throw right back! Mystic Ball from Buu turned into the Super Buu-Buu Volleyball attack from Gotenks! When he was finally about to finish the job…his Super Saiyan 3 power was gone!

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12. Super Buu vs. base Gotenks

Enter “normal” Gotenks trying to stall Super Buu but to no avail. When your own Super Ghost question your orders you know you are screwed…

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13. Super Buu vs. Mystic Gohan

Mystic Gohan came on the scene and simply dominated Super Buu, really there isn’t much to say here except why Gohan didn’t use any Ki attacks to simply kill Buu…

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14. Buutenks vs. Mystic Gohan

Which is something he would come to regret once he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo easily beating Gohan. If you ask me I think the anime’s take on this fight was more accurate than the manga. In the manga, Buu dominated Gohan the ENTIRE fight but in the anime, it was shown that the two were more or less even but only when Buu started taunting him (thanks to Piccolo) was he able to chip away at Gohan’s confidence causing the mighty hero to fight sloppy

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15. Buutenks vs. Tien

Kudos to Tien for saving Dende’s life with his Tri-Beam to deflect Buu’s blast but it was to no avail when he aimed for Buu to no damage at all but that’s understandable this guy was beating Mystic Gohan to a pulp!

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After Goku returns on the scene, he is easily knocked out with a swift kick from Buu’s lower half. At least Goku DID consider to fuse with him later on but due to being out cold that was out of the question

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16. Buutenks vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku

This was more about Goku stalling than actually fighting similar to his ight with Fat Buu so Trunks could get the Dragon Radar, he was waiting for Gohan to find the Potara Earring. This proved how Buu outclassed the Super Saiyan 3 in power AND speed with Goku not being able to land a punch. He landed a Kamehameha Volley (one blast to the chest) only because Buu was off guard blasting at Gohan

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17. Buuhan vs. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta

I love watching this fight but if one Super Saiyan 3 couldn’t handle Buutenks then two Super Saiyans wouldn’t have a prayer against the much more powerful Buuhan

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18. Buuhan vs. base Vegito

Buuhan couldn’t inflict any damage on Vegito even after many punches and energy blasts. It seemed clear that Vegito could have defeated Buuhan without even going Super Saiyan (as Old Kai said in the beginning)

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19. Buuhan vs. Super Saiyan Vegito or as most people call him “Super Vegito”

If base form Vegito could finish the job, then the 50 times more powerful Super Vegito could handle it as well. Beating Buu to the point that even his regeneration powers were starting to wear thin

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20. Super Buu vs. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta

Its true that the 2 Saiyans “beat” the first Super Buu but it was just a mind puppet I guess you could say but really they were in Buu’s head so they couldn’t really defeat him

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21. Kid Buu vs. the fighters on Grand Kai’s Planet

Buu easily defeated all of the other fighters…um yeah that’s about it

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22. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 2 Goku

A very good fight with Goku even blowing Buu to bits at one point…only for him to regenerate. Filler only but still worth watching showing Goku could hold his own!

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23. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku

The only fight that shows Buu being pushed back instead of doing all of the pushing…until Goku collapsed from exhaustion

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24. Kid Buu vs. base Vegeta

After his rival passes out, Vegeta takes the stage! But why he decided to fight in base form is over my head. He just saw Super Saiyan 3 Goku pass out why wouldn’t he go Super Saiyan 2 to fight?

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25. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Round 2)

This fight was good but the highlight is Vegeta finally realizing Goku is #1. And if not for his toying around before, Goku could have ended this fight instead of stalling for Vegeta to have a shot at winning

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26. Kid Buu vs. Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (Round 2)

Really something to see due to how “even” Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Buu were but how easily Vegeta got beaten but you can’t keep a good Saiyan down because Vegeta delivers some of his best pride dialogue in this battle! All seemed lost until the greatest hero ever stepped up to help out!!

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27. Kid Buu vs. Hercule

That’s right Mr. Satan!!!! Who holds Buu off due to Good Buu torturing Kid Buu’s head. But he actually dodges a couple of Buu’s attacks that even manages to impress Goku!

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28. Kid Buu vs. Good Buu

Honestly, the only reason Good Buu could hold his own was due to his regeneration abilities and the fact that he knew just about all of the same moves as Kid Buu but as the battle went on we see for the first time Majin Buu (in any form) run out of energy!

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29. Kid Buu vs. base Vegeta (Round 3)

After being wished back, I can see why Vegeta wouldn’t be as durable as he was before while dead and his power wasn’t quite back yet so I guess I can see why he didn’t transform for this fight but he managed to stay alive in order for the Spirit Bomb to be complete!

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30. Kid Buu vs. base/Super Saiyan Goku using the Spirit Bomb

Goku was exhausted and after some straining, Buu managed to throw back the blue ball until Goku’s Ki was restored and was able to finish the job!

Now let’s take a look at the strength of the people he absorbed:

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South Kai as Shin pointed out is one of the Supreme Kais who could kill Frieza with one blow. Considering that he was the strongest of the 4 Supreme Kais of his time with the Grand Supreme Kai seemingly the only person in the Kai or guardianship position that could exceed his power, he was certainly not a fighter to be taken lightly.

If you ask me, I feel that South Kai is AT LEAST in the power level range of a Super Saiyan 2. The reason I say this is because as I mentioned before he was able to hold his own against Kid Buu in a melee brawl. I mean the only one shown to do that against Kid Buu was Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Heck, South Kai even managed to rip off one of his arms!

I estimate Supreme Kai/South Kai/Shin to be around the power of the Ascended Super Saiyans in the Cell Saga like Super Vegeta so I’d imagine South Kai to be in the range of Super Saiyan 2 or above but not quite at Super Saiyan 3. I think he’s strong but not THAT strong.

The reason I don’t believe him to be that powerful is because one kick from Buu pretty much jacked up his face as you’ll see in another picture from their battle. Goku was bleeding but it took A LOT from Kid Buu to make that happen to the Super Saiyan 3.

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Grand Supreme Kai being the leader is the strongest and with South Kai by my estimation being near or above a Super Saiyan 2, this guy has to be strong! Is he at Super Saiyan 3 power?

Not sure…

But in any case he sure has some interesting techniques due to slicing up Buff Buu into pieces with a mouth blast! I’m sure he must use that on his food…

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Piccolo or Kamiccolo is a fighter who I don’t wager to be as powerful as Gohan was against Cell. After his trip into the Time Chamber, I feel that he had the power to rival that of Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta after their first trip into the Chamber. He didn’t lounge around during the 7 years in between the Cell and Buu Sagas as Gohan did but I don’t think he spent ALL of his time training like Vegeta. It seems that most of his time was spent on the Lookout with Dende and Popo most likely just teaching Dende how to be a good guardian.

That being said, he probably increased his power but not to the point where he was double the power of his Cell Saga persona.

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Gotenks as a Super Saiyan 3 is hands down one of the most powerful fighters in the Dragonball universe. His strength is above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and it could be argued that he did have the power to kill Super Buu but due to Buu’s endurance, Gotenks’ cockiness preventing him from finishing the job and the time limit on both his Super Saiyan 3 power and fusion time running out kept him from victory.

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Goten and Trunks are more or less even and I think in base form they’d be around the power of Frieza’s 1st form of 530,000 and as Super Saiyans that would put them over 26,000,000 but again that is just an estimate and I’ll get into more detail in another blog.

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Mystic Gohan is the strongest of any of the people that Buu had ever absorbed. His power was greater than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or Goku. He was the only fighter capable of going toe to toe with Super Buu.

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Absorption

The purpose of Absorption: This is just a point I’d like to make regarding the power of Kid Buu.

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Why does Majin Buu in any of his forms absorb another being into his body?

Essentially it is to add more power to his already impressive power level.

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If you ask me that is the overall purpose of it.

I believe that the one exception would be Piccolo. True he was absorbed at the same time as Gotenks who was obviously absorbed just for his power which Buu knew would only last for 30 minutes in order to defeat Mystic Gohan.

Piccolo was more or less an extra bonus because think of it this way, if he had just absorbed Gotenks, Buu would of course be extremely powerful but he wouldn’t really know what to do with the power.

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Super Buu on his own was a bit more mindful than Fat Buu but not the brightest fighter as seen when Gotenks used the Super Ghost to fool him into thinking a piece of candy was on the floor of the Time Chamber to have him drop his guard and get blown up.

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But with Piccolo, he’d be able to outsmart his opponent using not just power but psychological warfare which he used well against Gohan to lower his confidence slowing taking away his power in the sense that he wouldn’t be able to fight at his maximum because his emotions would cloud his judgement.

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I mean the reason I think Buff Buu is STRONGER than Kid Buu is because Buu would not have absorbed him in the first place unless he felt that South Kai was a being worth absorbing.

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West and North Kai didn’t do much against Buu and when he faced South Kai it was shown to be his first real challenge, someone who Buu couldn’t just swat away like he did the other 2 Kais or the inhabitants of the numerous planets he destroyed.

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If anything, Buff Buu is like Buff Cell or Ultra Super Saiyan in that it is just raw power.

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I mean when he faced Grand Supreme Kai it seemed like he finally met his match because of one mouth blast chopped Buu into pieces and then made him explode.

He probably figured that of course this Kai was stronger than South Kai and wanted to add the extra power to his being but did not know the power of Grand Kai wouldn’t be the ONLY thing he’d absorb.

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It seemed that Grand Kai’s goodness was more powerful than Buu’s evil. Explaining why he became the fat and jolly Buu rather than the killing machine Kid Buu or the tank that was Ultra/Buff Buu.

I don’t think South Kai’s goodness was stronger than Kid Buu’s evil I mean we don’t see much of Buff Buu but I doubt he was anywhere near as gentle as Fat Buu.

The reason I am including this is because a lot of people think that Kid Buu is the strongest.

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To all of the people who say that answer this question for me: if Kid Buu (who Super Saiyan 3 Goku said he could defeat but only if he could emit 100% of his Ki at once to kill him) is stronger than Buuhan then why didn’t Goku just go Super Saiyan 3 and defeat him in the Fusion Saga?

The answer; BECAUSE HE COULDN’T!!!!

Remember Goku was so desperate for extra power when Buuhan was going to allow him til the count of 5 to find someone to fuse with that he was about to throw the Potara Earring to HERCULE!!!

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Even before he threw it he contemplated the pros and cons:

1. Mr. Satan’s lack of Ki knowledge could do more harm than good

2. He DOES know basic martial arts

3. Fusing with him could actually LOWER Goku’s power rather than increase it!

If not for him sensing Vegeta’s Ki, that fusion would have happened

Remember against Kid Buu, he and Vegeta both agreed that they did not want to use the Potara again due to it being permanent.

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Goku says that since Buu isn’t a fused being anymore that it wouldn’t be fair and he opted to fight solo; this happened in both the anime and manga

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Instead of using the Fusion Dance as Old Kai predicted they did the next best technique; Rock, Paper, Scissors!!

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Going off another piece of dialogue that makes fans speculate that Goku could not defeat Super Buu (even before absorbing the Z-Fighters) due to him saying that if they escaped Buu’s head they way that they were now (being in their base forms and the highest Goku could go is Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta could go Super Saiyan 2) and he said Fusion was their only option to survive when getting to the outside.

Makes sense to me due to how strong Gotenks and Gohan are and they were the only ones who could smack around Super Buu like he was nothing.

Of course how can I talk about this subject without going into detail about Super Saiyan 3?

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Goku said that if he really tried he could have defeated Majin Buu or more specifically the FAT Majin Buu but he wanted Goten, Gohan and Trunks to have a shot at saving the world because he wouldn’t be around forever.

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However in the manga he sounds a lot less confident in his abilities to defeat the Fat Majin Buu when compared to the anime where he says “probably” but even so in the manga he wasn’t so sure

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Later on he tells Vegeta that if he fought Kid Buu at 100% from the start he could have defeated him not to mention he needed a moment to collect the Ki needed to kill him but he couldn’t do that with all of the high paced fighting that he was doing with Kid Buu

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Not to mention the Super Saiyan 3 confirmed that if Vegito was “here” the battle would be over in no time

This is one reason why I say that Kid Buu might actually be weaker than the Fat Majin Buu (not the Good Buu I mean the Buu we see after absorbing Grand Supreme Kai and the first Buu we see in the series after his ball is opened).

Here is one topic that needs to be discussed: Potara Earrings vs. Fusion Dance

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A common misconception is due to the Old Kai’s double-talk. When Goku says that he’ll do a Fusion with Gohan and then beat Buu, Old Kai is quick to scold him. He says that Buu isn’t just going to wait around while the two practice the moves and align their power levels and he made a good point.

I’m sure at that point Buu knew that Gotenks’ fusion wasn’t going to last much longer and the last thing he needed was an even more powerful fused being going up against him when he was about to lose his main source of power!

In any case here is what the manga says about this moment:

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If you ask me I think that Old Kai was referring from the pros and cons of the Potara Earrings vs. the Fusion Dance. In that case I could see why the earrings are “stronger” than the dance.

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When it comes to the earrings all the users have to do is place one on the opposing earring as their fusion partner and BOOM there is an instant fusion.

Potara is better than that ridiculous dance!!!

Potara is better than that ridiculous dance!!!

From what I can tell there are only 2 drawbacks;

1. The Fusion is permanent

2. If one or both of the people fusing is in a powered up state (like Super Saiyan for example) when the merger takes place there will be a considerable amount of strain placed on the fused body and since most beings can not stay in their powered up forms forever it will shorten their life force or lifetime.

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Now let’s look at the Fusion Dance in terms of cons;

1. One false move in the “dance” execution and the Fusion will fail resulting in either a fat or old and frail being

2. It takes a lot of practice and a good memory to remember the moves correctly

3. Both people have to emit the same Ki levels for the dance to work

4. Both people have to be of similar size

5. Depending on the power of the fused being it could actually do more harm than good with some fused beings being so powerful that it actually shortens the amount of time they can stayed fused; Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta only lasts 1/3 or 10 minutes of the total 30 minutes of Fusion

6. After a fusion (failed or successful) the two are unable to fuse for a full hour which isn’t good especially if you are fighting an extremely tough opponent

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So, when you look at it that way, the Potara Earrings ARE stronger than the Fusion Dance. However, that doesn’t mean the resulting being is more powerful than the Fusion Dance.

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Again, this is up to fan speculation because this is what it boils down to if you are trying to compare the power of Super Saiyan Gogeta and Vegito.

Here is where I get to the part of the blog where I confirm two things that I actually kind of doubt myself about;

1. Whether Buff Buu IS more powerful than Buuccolo

2. If Fat Buu IS more powerful than Kid Buu

Here is how I look at it when it comes to Buff Buu based on the power of South Kai. As I mentioned before, I think he is near or above the Super Saiyan 2 level. Piccolo is not as strong as a Super Saiyan 2 but still pretty powerful. Don’t forget that Buuccolo also has the power of Goten and Trunks. HOWEVER, in their people pods the two hybrids are in their base forms so the question remains as to whether or not Super Buu could access their Super Saiyan power. I know Piccolo is more powerful than them regardless of their form.

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In any case, if Buuccolo is less powerful than Buff Buu then it doesn’t really matter because he is indeed a lot smarter. Buff Buu is like a rhino or tank just charging into his opponents with his huge body.

In a battle, I think that Buuccolo COULD win due to having brains and power.

I did list Super Buu to be more powerful than Kid Buu regardless of whether he is fused with anyone or not but also notice that Buff Buu is above him because Goku and Vegeta mentioned that he was increasing in both body and power instead of decreasing after ripping out Good Buu’s pod.

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Though when he reverts to Kid Buu they mention he got “manageable” in that they could beat him but they were not prepared for his wild and berserk nature.

In any case, in terms of raw power I think that Buff Buu exceeds Buuccolo but in terms of who would win a fight I think it would be Buuccolo if he can come up with strategy and technique to overcome the raging beast

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Now here is where I try to confirm why I feel that the Fat Majin Buu if more powerful than Kid Buu;

For one as I mentioned before, the purpose of absorption is to increase the already incredible power of a being by incorporating the power of another.

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In both the anime and manga, it is suggested that by absorbing South and Grand Supreme Kai, Majin Buu’s power was dropped due to the Kai’s good influcence over him. Remember Kid Buu was 100% evil but by absorbing the Kais he not only took their power but also some of their personality traits and along with that was goodness. As I mentioned before, South Kai’s goodness wasn’t enough to overpower Buu’s evil but when Grand Supreme Kai was absorbed so was his goodness and that seemed enough to overcome Buu’s wild nature.

If you ask me I don’t think Buu’s power dropped where the Kais “took away” his power. I think it was just buried inside if that makes sense.

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For comparison let’s look at Gohan: Remember it was said that the Fat Buu’s power just kept on increasing and it was like a bottomless well that was never ending.

It might sound wrong but actually it makes A LOT of sense.

He spent centuries in his ball so it makes sense that his power became “contained.”

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From his brief fight with Dabura to his fight with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, it was said that the more powerful his opponent, the more Buu’s power increased.

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Remember that Gohan reached his peak during the Cell Games when he finally delivered the final blow to the Android.

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Though for 7 years, he spent his time going to school and studying like his mother wanted and actually dropped his power because when he went Super Saiyan 2 against Kibito, Vegeta said that he was a lot more powerful as a kid.

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However, he still had a lot of power contained and it had to be released thanks to the efforts of Old Kai. I mean Goku and  Vegeta were even at Super Saiyan 2 but more powerful than Gohan but after his power up, Mystic Gohan had the power to be stronger than Vegeta or even a Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Gotenks.

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It is like an athelthe who was at his peak but stopped training and working out for a long time, their strength drops. The same with Majin Buu being in that ball so long or Gohan sitting at his desk studying so long, his power was still there but it is “hidden” once again.

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Of course the best way to illustrate my point is to compare the fights between the dead Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Fat Buu against the alive Goku at Super Saiyan 3 fighting Kid Buu BUT while in the Other World.

I think this level of Super Saiyan should be a clear indicator of how strong Buu is.

The real question is: Is Goku stronger as a Super Saiyan 3 while dead?

I know that he said a living body chugs more energy than a dead one and in Other World, Super Saiyan 3 was “easy.”

Against Fat Buu, he didn’t take much if any damage at least on the outside of his body but against Kid Buu it was clear that he was damaged and passed out from exhaustion.

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Perhaps his power isn’t different whether or not he is dead or alive. It might just boil down to the fact that while he is dead, he is better equipped to handle the form without the strain on his body.

When he was fighting Fat Buu, it was said multiple times that Majin Buu’s power was increasing to keep up with Goku’s beacuse he said that the more power he puts out the more powerful Buu became.

Against Kid Buu it seemed clear that the Majin was able to keep up with Goku but it was never said that he was getting stronger just that he had the speed and endurance to keep up with Goku. Though it has to be mentioned that the battle took such a toll on Goku that it got to the point where his attacks were not even fazing Buu anymore.

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Similar to 100% Frieza vs. Goku on Namek, Frieza’s body was being strained by his power and he was getting weaker the longer the fight went on

So, if it were a battle between Fat Buu and Kid Buu I think that Fat Buu just might come out on top but with the Instant Transmission it might be possible for Kid Buu to win due to his berserk nature vs. the laid back nature of Fat Buu.

Really it is similar to Buff vs. Buuccolo in that it is more than just raw power but abilities.

Those were the only points that I felt needed to be addressed in terms of any doubts that I was having before.

Which is the best Buu?

When it really boils down to it, there are only TWO pure Majin Buus and those are Evil and Kid Buu. All of the other Buus have another being inside of them taking away from his pure Majin nature in both power, personality  and danger level.

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Look at the fission from Good Buu like Kami and King Piccolo

We have an extremely powerful being (Fat Buu) who is generally good but due to an unseen evil in their heart it must be expelled and the result is two beings of equal power but one good and the other evil.

However, in Buu’s case it is clear that the evil side is far more powerful than the good.

And that makes perfect sense!

Remember Kid Buu was 100% evil and only “good” after absorbing the 2 Kais and even then he wasn’t completely good and not completely evil.

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And remember Fat Buu was generally good and hungry like Grand Supreme Kai however you could tell he was still somewhat evil. His eyes would open whenever he was mad or about to do something evil like kill people for no reason at all showing that the destructive Kid Buu was still inside of him somewhere.

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The reverse can be said after Evil Buu eats Good Buu and the evil takes over with the Good holding him back with candy cravings and not killing Hercule

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So, when you think about it Evil Buu is the physical manifestation of the evil inside of Fat Buu and really he could be interpreted as another form of Kid Buu.

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Kind of like Gray Hulk is to Bruce Banner in that he is smarter and can talk clearer than Green Hulk; similar to Evil Buu and Good Buu

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It is obvious Good Buu got the short end of the stick with Evil Buu pretty much easily swatting around his good counterpart and for some reason after coming together again to form Super Buu he could sense Ki…

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Yeah I have to scratch my head on that one because it was as random as Vegeta learning how to do it after his beam collision with Goku back in the Saiyan Saga due to him saying as a Great Ape that he could “feel” Goku in the area while he was collecting Ki for the Spirit Bomb

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In terms of which is the strongest or best Majin Buu then the obvious winner is Kid Buu since he is a PURE Majin Buu who is stronger than Evil Buu.

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Though when you throw in his multiple incarnations including his Fusion with other beings then of course Buuhan is #1

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One thing about Kid Buu that makes it difficult to measure his power is that he never fights seriously.

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It seems like he’ll gladly take an attack that blasts him to bits but reforms like it was nothing.

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It seemed that Super Saiyan 2 Goku was holding his own against Kid Buu but the Majin was EASILY able to beat Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta who is equal in power to Goku. That might be due to Goku being a superior marital artists than Vegeta or because Goku and Kid Buu was sizing each other up before the real fight began when he went Super Saiyan 3.

Though it is the unpredictability of Kid Buu that makes him one of my favorites I will say that much about him.

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We saw the limits of Buuhan’s power since he could mimic the moves of the fighters he absorbed and because Vegito was more powerful than him so he had to pull out all the stops and from what we’ve seen I don’t know why people think that Kid Buu could defeat him

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I mean take away the dialouge from the Kais about Kid Buu being the most powerful and please explain WHY he is stronger. I mean we are talking about Kibito Kai (50% Supreme Kai) who didn’t know the Super Saiyans existed, the Potara Earring effects and the list goes on about how bad of a guardian he is. So, why take his word so seriously?

In conclusion:

I just feel that Super Buu or more specifically Buutenks and Buuhan were far more powerful than Kid Buu. The main reason why is that their existence demanded Fusion to be used to compete or beat them.

After Gotenks’ Fusion time ran out, Super Saiyan 3 Goku was confident that Gohan alone could finish off Buu

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Well until Buu absorbed Gohan as well making Goku desperate for a Fusion partner

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Goku was pretty confident in his own abilities to defeat Kid Buu and seriously, I think that he could do it if he had the time to gather the necessary Ki.

So that pretty much sums up why I feel that Buuhan is far more powerful than Kid Buu and why I rank them from strongest from weakest the way that I do.

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Regardless of what the anime or manga says, I just feel that it is for a reason given the fact we are shown powerful characters like Mystic Gohan, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Vegito who outclass Super Saiyan 3 Goku in power but Buu proved to be more powerful than Gotenks and Gohan.

Now it is time for the fans to speak up as to whether or not you agree with me and why.

Thanks for reading!