Dragon Ball Super: Will Vegeta Skip Super Saiyan God?

By Jeremy Carden

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The Saiyan Prince has once again vowed to surpass the Super Saiyan God Goku by following his own path to the level of god.

While some fans have dismissed Vegeta’s attempts to surpass Goku as nothing more than the hotheaded Saiyan once again biting off more than he can chew, I think there is more to it that than.

Yes, I am a HUGE Vegeta fan. Honestly, he is my favorite character in the entire Dragon Ball franchise. However, I am not writing this as a Vegeta fanboy without using some details and information from the series to back up my theory.

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Please keep in mind that I am simply a DB fan writing on the subject of Vegeta POSSIBLY obtaining “Super Saiyan Blue” without going Super Saiyan God.

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DB Wiki (a website that can be edited by fans meaning that any information from it can be taken with a grain of salt) has dubbed Vegeta’s transformation/power-up against Beerus as “Furious Mutation.”

It is described as follows:

Upon being overcome by an extreme rage, the user powers up into their strongest form, however their power skyrockets even further than usual, temporarily blanking out their eyes. In this state, both his skin and body turns with a slight pink tone and blue bolts surround him. Even when the user calms down after using the power-up, the power boost remains.

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Overall, Vegeta lost it after seeing Beerus slap Bulma which caused him to snap.

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This is similar to his assault against Super Perfect Cell after he killed Future Trunks right in front of his eyes.

The key difference here is that even after calming down after his hissy fit (blasting Cell with dozens of ki blasts); Vegeta’s power during his rampaging moment was not sustained.

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Vegeta’s moment of rage was very similar to Gohan’s outburst during the DB series. He would go into a fit of rage whenever he was pushed into a corner, or if someone close to him was hurt by a villain.

From being smacked around with ease to beating the hell out of his opponent, Gohan’s power soared to new heights. However, that power would disappear when he calmed down.

Unlike his past moments of rage, Vegeta had gained a grasp on his enraged power during the Battle of Gods arc.

After the battle with Beerus, Vegeta’s Super Saiyan 2 power had increased from the “Furious Mutation.” He still had access to the power in that state, and was working to increase it even further.

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During episode 16, Vegeta was training alone on a mountain or in the middle of a wasteland. He was seen standing in the rain, and then began powering up when the sun came out.

It was almost as if he was trying to tap into the power he had used against Beerus, and from there take it to the next level.

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Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta perhaps?

Maybe, but sadly I doubt that because of the serious drawbacks that Super Saiyan 3 has when compared to the god level transformations.

In any case, I will say that a Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta would NOT be someone to take lightly.

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Considering the fact that Furious Mutation Vegeta was mentioned to be more powerful than SS3 Goku was (prior to ascending to god level), SS3 Vegeta would a lot stronger than SS3 Goku!

Let’s say that after mastering the Furious Mutation (which made SS2 Vegeta more powerful than SS3 Goku), Vegeta finally goes SS3. That would increase his power Super Saiyan 2 power by 4 making him over 4 times more powerful than SS3 Goku was!

Again, this is just an interesting speculation in terms of Vegeta surpassing Goku.

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Getting back to the true subject of this blog, I think a couple of questions have been raised about Vegeta’s ascension to the level of god. These are the 2 questions to keep in mind:

  1. Can Vegeta skip Super Saiyan God in order to obtain Super Saiyan Blue?
  2. Will Vegeta skip Super Saiyan God in order to obtain Super Saiyan Blue?

It would not surprise me if Vegeta WILL skip SS God in order to get to SS Blue. However, I am not 100% sure if he CAN skip SS God in order to get to SS Blue.

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Saiyan beyond God is the middle form between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue.

After a Saiyan that has obtained Super Saiyan God reverts back to base form after the god transformation’s time limit runs out, their body can absorb that godly realm of power. This results in the Saiyan’s base form being on a similar level of power as a SS God.

Then if the Saiyan can truly master the power of SS God in the Saiyan beyond God form, going Super Saiyan allows the user to add godly ki to the transformation.

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Meaning that Super Saiyan Blue is a regular Super Saiyan transformation, but it has the presence of godly ki. Keep in mind, the Saiyan is NOT 100% god or 100% Saiyan.

It is almost like a Saiyan-God hybrid of sorts, but it is a powerful transformation without the time limit of SS God.

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Whis told Vegeta that if he learned to control his ki, he could potentially be able to surpass Goku.

Personally, I did not truly understand what Whis meant by that. Was he saying that a Saiyan with ki control could surpass a Saiyan at the god level?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t Goku and Gohan learn about ki control during the Cell Games arc?

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During their training in the Time Chamber, they learned to master the Super Saiyan transformation. This allowed them to control their ki output and maintain their base form personality traits even while transformed as Full Power Super Saiyans.

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Vegeta never trained under the same methods as Goku and Gohan. That was why he had trouble cracking an egg due to using too much force.

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This was very similar to Goku and Gohan trying to hold glass cups during their downtime before the battle with Cell.

Will Vegeta’s training with Whis be similar to Goku and Gohan’s training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Basically, they maintained the regular Super Saiyan transformation as long as they could until it felt normal (their new base form).

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I’m hoping that in the next episode, we get to see flashbacks of some of Vegeta’s training. He has been on Beerus’ planet for 6 months, and Whis thought it was the perfect time for Goku to travel there as well.

This could hint at Vegeta being near Goku’s power, but the way he achieved that power has yet to be revealed.

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We do see Vegeta and Goku doing basic chores to help maintain the upkeep of the area where Beerus sleeps.

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After watching those scenes, it reminded me of Goku and Krillin doing chores like delivering milk along with farm work while training under Master Roshi.

If I were to make a semi-educated guess on Vegeta bypassing SS God to obtain SS Blue, I would say that the Saiyans participating in the SS God ritual got a small taste of god power themselves.

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I mean they are transferring their ki into one Saiyan in order for the Saiyan to reach SS God.

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Who is to say some of that godly ki isn’t transferred through all of the participants in the ritual, but only one truly ascends to the SS God level?

That explanation is the only one that I can think of that would actually make some sense as to how Vegeta could skip the SS God transformation in order to get to SS Blue.

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If Vegeta does skip SS God, I think that would be cool because it shows that he wants to surpass Goku, but he will do it on his own. That would be an interesting change of pace from DBGT where he had to rely on Bulma’s Blutz Waves device in order to become SS4 in order to help close the gap between himself and Goku.

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Whis could be training him to master his own ki, and the “sample” of godly ki that was given to him through the SS God ritual for Goku. This is what could allow Vegeta to go SS Blue which is a blending of Super Saiyan and godly ki.

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What do you think? I would love to hear your thoughts in the comment section below.

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Super: Will Goku and Vegeta Fuse?

By Jeremy Carden

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After watching Revival of F, I have a very strong hunch that Dragon Ball fans will once again see a Goku/Vegeta fusion!

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If you ask me, I think that Whis’ main goal in training the Saiyan duo is not only to help them perfect their fighting abilities as individuals, but to also make them understand that they need to learn how to work together.

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Whis pointed out that Vegeta is too tense and Goku is too carefree. The two are practically opposing opposites when it comes to fighting. Vegeta is the more brilliant fighter, but Goku is better when it comes to off the wall combat (a good fighter that does not go by the books, he is better at overcoming obstacles by thinking outside of the box).

I mean if you look at the times when the two actually worked together to defeat the odds, you have to admit that they make a very potent combo!

For a moment, forget about what is canon and what is non-canon. Think back to some epic moments within the Dragon Ball franchise when these Saiyans actually teamed up.

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The Return of Cooler was a movie where neither Saiyan could take Cooler on in his new form.

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When they put aside their differences, the team destroyed 1 Meta-Cooler robot (before 1,000 showed up). In the end, they overpowered the Big Gete Star achieving victory!

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In the anime-only battle with Buuhan, each Saiyan was getting wrecked by the “mightiest Majin.”

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Goku convinced Vegeta to use the Potara Earrings in order to save the universe, and Vegito was beating around Buu with ease!

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How about when Super Janemba was able to defeat Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta?

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They ended up creating Gogeta in order to send that demon back into oblivion!

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Finally, the threat of Omega Shenron proved too great for even a couple of Super Saiyan 4s to stop!

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Once again, fusion created Gogeta to stop another threat to the universe (though this time around; Gogeta did not get the job done…).

My point is that Goku and Vegeta are extremely powerful as individuals, but working together has proven that the two can overcome almost any obstacle in their way.

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I think Goku said it best when he was describing the Fusion Dance back during the Buu Saga. He said that a being created from the fusion would be capable of accomplishing feats that neither individual could do alone.

Don’t you think that Vegito and Gogeta fit that description perfectly? I mean whenever the Saiyans fused, it was because they realized that they did not stand a chance of winning against their opponent at the time as individuals. They had no other option but to fuse in order to defeat the odds with overwhelming power!

Now the question remains as to whether or not Goku and Vegeta will actually fuse in the Dragon Ball Super series.

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Originally, I thought that if there was a movie to follow Revival of F; the two would fuse again. You have to admit that the movie itself seemed like a setup in order for the Saiyans to realize that they need to work together in order to achieve the best results.

I mean they fought against each other instead of fighting together against Frieza, and the entire world was destroyed (until Whis reversed time) due to their unwillingness to work as a team!

At the end of the film, Goku mentioned that their battle with Frieza was proof that Whis was correct when he said that they should work together more. However, Vegeta scoffed at the remark about them working together. With laughter, Goku agreed that it would never happen.

Is that right?

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Considering that Champa, Universe 6 and the Super Dragon Balls will appear in the DB Super anime/manga; I think the two WILL fuse again!

Why?

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With 11 other universes out there that contain beings more powerful than Beerus AND Whis, the Saiyans will eventually come across opponent(s) too powerful for them to defeat alone.

Fusion would be their only option, and it will be their trump card in order to win against their foes.

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As I mentioned in another blog about Gogeta appearing within the DB Super series, I think that the two fusing would be their completion of their training under Whis.

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I feel this way because as I mentioned above, Whis is teaching the two how to overcome their individual weaknesses, and to also work together as a team.

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Considering that Lord Beerus could be defeated if the two worked together (Whis mentioned this), I think Goku and Vegeta teaming up would be a threat to even gods more powerful than Beerus from some of the other universes!

Whis seeing the two truly working together would be the icing on the cake (because we know how Whis and Beerus love to eat) to their training.

Fans are split as to which fusion would actually appear within the DB Super series. Some say that Gogeta will finally make an appearance, and others are strongly behind Vegito reappearing.

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The thing that gets me is when fans say that Gogeta CAN’T appear because he is NOT considered canon. Personally, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. True, his appearance in GT and Fusion Reborn were considered my most to be non-canon. However, the Fusion Dance itself IS canon because the technique appearance in the anime and manga.

Goku knows about the dance, and he would show it to Vegeta if necessary for them to actually fuse against an opponent. Of course, I am sure that he would object to it because of the prissy movements needed to execute the technique. He did perform an embarrassing bingo dance to save the planet from destruction. What harm could performing one little ballet dance (Fusion Dance) do?

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Think about how upset he was when he had to hold hands with Goku in order to teleport to earth using Instant Transmission! Although, I thought he could have just placed his hand on Goku’s shoulder or something, but I guess the writers wanted to make that scene as awkward as they possibly could.

In my opinion, I believe that Gogeta will be the one who appears in the DB Super series if the Saiyans ever fused.

Why?

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Do you really believe that Vegeta or Goku would want to do a permanent fusion (again)?

The only reason Vegito split was because of Buu’s digestive system breaking the Potara Fusion apart.

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In Battle of Gods, Revival of F and DB Super Episode 5, whenever fusion was mentioned it was a reference to Vegito NOT Gogeta. This is because Vegito was the only fusion between the two to appear in both the anime and manga.

Unless we see Vegito from one of the other 11 universes, I do not think that he will appear again. Perhaps there is another universe where they used the Potara Fusion, but for whatever reason they did not split apart.

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This is what happened in the DB Multiverse series because there was a universe where Vegito did not remove the barrier protecting him within Buu’s body. After escaping with the absorbed Z-Fighters, Vegito killed Kid Buu (and the fusion stayed intact).

I know that DB Super is changing some of the events of Battle of Gods/Revival of F, but it is still unknown whether or not the ending of DBZ anime/manga will be kept the same. I am not just referring to Uub appearing and then leaving to train with Goku.

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I am talking about Goku and Vegeta not being fused into Vegito because we see them as two individual Saiyans.

That is why I feel that if they do fuse, Goku and Vegeta would use the Fusion Dance to become Gogeta.

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Who is to say that the Kais couldn’t make special Potara Earrings that would allow a temporary fusion?

However, that would be like opening a can of worms in order to make Vegito show up again.

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Another possibly is that Whis (or another being) knows of a fusion technique that we have never seen before! There really is no clear understanding on where the story of DB Super is going because it has just started. I am really excited because of the revival of the DB franchise as a whole, and anything can happen!

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I could care less about which fusion appears because I love both Gogeta and Vegito. The one thing that I want to see more than anything is an opponent that makes a Goku/Vegeta fusion actually HAVE to use their full power!

Remember that Super Gogeta, Super Vegito and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta dominated their opponents with ease. We never got to see the full extent of their power, and that is something that a lot of fans would want to see at some point.

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Can you imagine the power and techniques utilized by a full power Gogeta or Vegito? It makes me excited because any awesome techniques from the series are almost always put into DBZ video games. Not to mention the possibility of a new Super Saiyan level!

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Which fusion do you think will appear in the future; Gogeta, Vegito or someone entirely new?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Z: Can Ultimate Gohan Turn Super Saiyan?

By Jeremy Carden

I love to write about the topics that Dragon Ball fans either debate about the most or rarely think about. In this case, I believe the topic of this blog is something that fans have been debating about since the Buu Saga was first released.

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The subject of this blog is about whether or not Gohan has the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form.

Let me start off with what some Dragon Ball sources have to say about Ultimate Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2. Daizenshuu 2 seems to be the primary source regarding the Super Saiyan transformations that Gohan is still capable of even after Old Kai’s ritual:

“Daizenshuu 2 states that Gohan’s dormant power is bottomless. It also states that Ultimate Gohan is still capable of becoming a Super Saiyan, but even without utilizing the form he surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in power, if Ultimate Gohan was to become a Super Saiyan his power would likely rise to levels above even Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed).”

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Now I will give my thoughts on the above statement from the Daizenshuu, I agree that Gohan’s dormant power is essentially bottomless. This has been shown time and time again throughout the series.The second part of the statement is something that I also agree with because Gohan was easily able to beat up Super Buu.

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks on the other hand was more or less on par with the Majin, but he was not able to completely dominate him like Gohan did.

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As for the final part, I will say that I agree with a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan being able to surpass Buuhan. However, that depends on whether or not the Super Saiyan transformation would still raise Ultimate Gohan’s power 50 times over according to the Super Saiyan multiplier chart.

I mean we know that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest un-fused character in the series at that point during the Buu Saga. Could you image his power being increased by 50 with a Super Saiyan transformation, and potentially 100 times over with a Super Saiyan 2 transformation?!

I dare say that his power might even surpass that of Vegito if he had used any Super Saiyan transformation as Ultimate Gohan! However, that again is only based on whether or not the Super Saiyan multipliers would come into play with Ultimate Gohan going Super Saiyan 1 or 2. Honestly, I cannot really see why they would not be applied aside from plot purposes where Gohan was meant to lose to an opponent.

Here is another piece from Daizenshuu 2 regarding Gohan’s power:

“Ultimate Gohan can still transform further into a Super Saiyan, however, even without transforming his power still surpasses Gotenks. Ultimate Gohan is rarely shown transforming into a Super Saiyan form throughout his appearances, though he does when found as a necessity as seen in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods when he helped contribute to making Goku become a Super Saiyan God. Later, not keeping up with his training during Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’, he became a Super Saiyan when fighting Shisami and effortlessly beats him. Gohan going Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form was powerful enough as to where it concerned and made the newly empowered Frieza to attack and kill Gohan so his men could have a chance as Frieza himself says Gohan alone is more than capable of beating all 1000 men by himself. Gohan was brought back to life by Piccolo moments later.”

As you can see, the statement above is in reference to Gohan’s power from Battle of Gods and Revival of F.

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In the trailer for Battle of Gods, we saw Gohan powering up into a Super Saiyan (we assume Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan 2 due to lack of an electric aura, but the same can be said about Vegeta when he powered up without an electric aura in a rage over Bulma being smacked).

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During the actual movie, Gohan is powering up into his Ultimate form to battle Beerus.

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While the Saiyans tried twice in order to get Goku to the Super Saiyan God level, Gohan was a Super Saiyan in both attempts.

At the start of the film during the party, it appears as if Gohan was in his base form due to his appearance.

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When the gloves came off to fight Beerus, he powered up into his Ultimate form, and later into a Super Saiyan to give his dad power.

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It does not look like Gohan powered down from his Ultimate form before going Super Saiyan during the Super Saiyan God ritual. This is made apparent by his forelock hanging down, and comparing the lack of said forelock in his regular clothing.

You are probably asking yourself about Ultimate Gohan’s power as a Super Saiyan, and why he did not power up to that level to combat Beerus.

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The same can be said about Gotenks fusing as a Super Saiyan instead of a Super Saiyan 3 to combat Beerus, but I will get to that point later in the blog about how the writer’s plot trumps a character’s power.

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Moving to Revival of F (which takes place about 1 year after Battle of Gods), Gohan’s lack of training has caused his Ultimate form to lose power. True, Old Kai brought his hidden potential to the surface. However, due to no training to maintain that power; Gohan’s 100% power so to speak was much weaker at this point.

Don’t believe this could happen to someone who has their peak power brought to the surface?

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Remember that during the Cell Games, Gohan’s hidden power was brought out in the form of Super Saiyan 2. Due to 7 years of no training, Gohan’s power diminished and this was pointed out by Goku and Vegeta.

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How Ultimate Gohan’s power would decrease substantially due to merely 1 year of no training is beyond me, but that goes back to the power of the plot trumping the power of fan theories. Not to mention that Gohan said that he “thinks” that he could still go Super Saiyan implying that his power and lack of training was so serious that he might not even be able to power up like he used to.

Apparently in Revival of F, Gohan was fighting against Frieza’s army as Ultimate Gohan. I was shocked when I read about this, and this might have been due to Gohan’s new hairstyle that threw me off.

Seriously, I thought that was merely base Gohan easily fighting off Frieza’s soldiers. It is also important to point out that the Z-Fighters (Jaco included) were holding back. Even Frieza noticed that his army was so weak the “earthlings” were not even killing them, but only beating them up with ease despite being heavily outnumbered.

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Frieza was taken aback when Ultimate Gohan went Super Saiyan and took out Shisami in one blow. The power of Shisami has not been revealed, but some sources rank him around the power of Zarbon and Dodorai. This would put him around 22,000 or 23,000.

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However, that would make no sense considering he was fighting on par with Piccolo (Super Namek). Piccolo’s power had LONG surpassed 23,000, and he had accomplished that feat after his training on King Kai’s planet before he arrived on Namek and fused with Nail going into the 1,000,000 power level range.

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He had fought on par with Android 17, and further increased his power after a solo training session in the Time Chamber in preparation for the Cell Games.

I wrote a blog on my thoughts regarding Piccolo’s power during the Dragon Ball series, and you can read that here.

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During that point in the series (Revival of F), I would rank Piccolo at least around the power of a Full Power Super Saiyan Goku or Gohan from the Cell Games.

The fact that Piccolo was a bit worn out from fighting so many soldiers in my mind would not make him weak enough for a Zarbon-level opponent to be giving him a hard time!

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Not to mention that Ultimate Gohan would have to go Super Saiyan in order to knock him out!

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This just goes to show that the plot of Revival of F was meant to heavily lower the power of any character that was not Goku or Vegeta! It was almost as if I was watching GT again…

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However, not to get off subject with a rant, I think that Frieza was right to worry about Gohan’s power. Not only had he experienced that power firsthand when Gohan was a child, but he was right in assuming Gohan alone could have killed his army. A feat that I think Piccolo could have done as well if his power was not crippled by the writers…

You see if Gohan was in his base form (not Ultimate Gohan) fighting Frieza’s army, and had to take out Shisami by going Super Saiyan because by some way of writing his power was on par with Piccolo then it would have made sense.

Why?

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Piccolo is far more powerful than base Gohan, Goku and Vegeta because of his Super Namek fusion. Going Super Saiyan would have been the only way they could have beaten up Piccolo; I’m talking pre-Battle of Gods here folks.

Now for Ultimate Gohan to have to go Super Saiyan to beat this guy seems flat out ridiculous. I might have to write a separate blog about Shisami’s power because of how much nonsense that subject seems to gather.

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First form Frieza “killed” Gohan with a punch to the gut right after he had taken a Senzu bean showing that his new power was nothing to play with.

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I think that it might be safe to assume that even if Ultimate Gohan went Super Saiyan 1 or 2, he might not have been able to tangle with Final Form Frieza as his father did as a Saiyan beyond God.

Aside from the Daizenshuu, there is another source regarding Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan:

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“In Dragon Ball Z: Dokkan Battle, Ultimate Gohan (Resurrection ‘F’) is also able to further power up into a Super Saiyan 2 form.”

Despite being a video game, it is probably safe to assume that Super Saiyan 2 Ultimate Gohan is actually a reality.

At this point it seems clear that Ultimate Gohan CAN transform into a Super Saiyan 1 and 2.

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However, it is still made unclear why he never utilized this power before in order to defeat his opponents. I know most of you are wondering why he did not use this power in order to defeat Buutenks.

I mean it was mentioned above that a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan might have had the power to surpass Buuhan, and that would mean he could have killed Buutenks easily.

While Majin Buu was in the middle of transforming after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo, Gohan just stood there looking…not doing anything at all.

Goku who was watching from Supreme Kai’s planet through the crystal ball was yelling for Gohan to raise his power because Buu was once again changing.

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Did this mean that Goku knew that Gohan could raise his power higher even in his Ultimate form, or was that simply just dialogue pointing out the obvious for Gohan to not just stand there, but to prep for Buu’s more powerful form that was about to emerge?

I think it is pretty clear that if Ultimate Gohan even went to Super Saiyan 1, he could have killed Buutenks and that would have been the end of the Majin threat.

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Akira Toriyama stated that his original plan was for Ultimate Gohan to be the one to kill Buu, and become the hero of the universe once again as he had during the Cell Games. However, due to Gohan’s personality, Toriyama did not really see him as the one to be mankind’s sworn protector.

That role seemed to fit Goku’s personality more, and though I hate to admit it…he has a good point about that.

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Despite the “logic” of Ultimate Gohan clearly being the one to defeat Buu, Gohan would have most likely gone back to school and lived a normal life. Goku on the other hand would simply train to get more powerful for his own satisfaction, but also to save his earth from future threats.

In a series based on a hero who would save mankind from present and future threats, it would make more sense for Goku to be the one to kill Buu. However, in terms of power and who could have gotten the job done the easiest, that would have been Gohan hands down (or Vegito for that matter).

With that being said, it appears that if Akira allowed Gohan to go Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form, it would not have been the best move for the overall plot. This could be why Ultimate Gohan was simply fighting in his “base form” against Majin Buu.

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This could all go back to Old Kai’s ritual and what it actually did to Gohan’s power. If you ask me, it was very similar to Guru’s method of releasing a being’s hidden potential. Of course, his ritual was much faster than Old Kai’s.

Guru would simply place his hand on the person’s head, and their power would instantly be released.

Old Kai’s ritual seems to last longer if a person has tremendous hidden potential, but does not last as long for someone with little to no massive power buried deep within them.

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I think that both hidden power rituals did the SAME thing to Gohan’s power; bringing his hidden potential to the surface. However, this did not mean that Gohan’s power could not be increased through training and Zenkai boosts.

Gohan’s power seems to be essentially bottomless, and with Zenkai boosts due to his Saiyan blood, Gohan’s strength can and will increase regardless of his hidden power being brought to the surface.

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His power was around 1,500 when he first arrived on Namek, and was over 10,000 after Guru released his hidden potential.

During his battles with the Ginyu Force and Frieza, Gohan’s power increased dramatically! With Zenkai boosts from being healed with a Senzu Bean and Dende’s healing power along with his fits of rage; Gohan’s strength skyrocketed into the millions. This was proven when he had 2nd and 3rd form Frieza on the ropes!

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With that being said, Guru brought Gohan’s hidden potential to the surface that he possessed at that point in time. This created Gohan’s new “base form” so to speak.

Old Kai practically did the same thing with Ultimate Gohan being Gohan’s “base form.” Gohan could further raise his “new base form” with his Super Saiyan transformations if he needed to…like he could and should have done against the likes of Buu, Beerus and the newly revived Frieza.

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Remember what Old Kai said to Goku prior to him going to earth to use the Potara Earrings with Gohan (but instead used them with Vegeta)?

He told Goku NOT to fuse as a Super Saiyan because that form is not natural and causes a strain on the body. This would shorten the fused being’s life if he were created through a Super Saiyan fusion. Old Kai further states that due to the Potara Fusion being so powerful, going Super Saiyan could be done AFTER fusing but it would most likely NOT be necessary.

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Compare this to what he told Gohan about unleashing his new power; Old Kai said to “do that Super Saiyan thing that you always do.” Old Kai always seemed to use double-talk or give a double meaning behind his dialogue. He most likely was saying that Ultimate Gohan’s power would be sufficient against any opponent and going Super Saiyan is something that could be done but would most likely not be necessary.

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This makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, and it could indeed prove that Ultimate Gohan was practically base Gohan with a new power and attitude! His Super Saiyan transformations were practically a bonus but not a necessity due to Old Kai being confident about his ritual and other power up methods that the ways of a temporary power up like a Super Saiyan would not be needed at all.

Not to mention Ultimate Gohan does not have to suffer from physical strain or substantial Ki drain as he would have through Super Saiyan transformations (unless you exclude Full Power Super Saiyan, but even then the form is not something that would last forever like a base form would because it is not natural).

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For the most part he was right because Ultimate Gohan beat down Super Buu (prior to becoming Buutenks). Furthermore, Vegito was able to take down Buuhan will little effort in his base form (anime only).

If you ask me, the question about Ultimate Gohan going Super Saiyan is very similar to Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “base form” taken on by a Saiyan that had absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God. This essentially means that Saiyan beyond God Goku is just as powerful as Super Saiyan God Goku, but without the time limit that the Super Saiyan God form suffers from.

This mirrors Ulimate Gohan being on par it not more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3, but without the Ki drawbacks that the form possesses.

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A Saiyan beyond God and Ultimate Gohan can essentially raise their power through Super Saiyan transformations, but the question remains if a Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan is 50 times more powerful than Ultimate Gohan or a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times more powerful than a Saiyan beyond God due to that “base form” practically being the same power as a Super Saiyan God.

Until we get the official power rating from Akira himself, I doubt that this subject will ever have a decisive answer. However, it is always fun to speculate about it. Although it gives me a massive headache just thinking about it, but this blog had to be written.

Overall, this was a topic that I had never thought about until I read some new sources regarding Revival of F. In GT, I was thinking that Ultimate Gohan was no more due to lack of training or the writers not including him in the series. Gohan instead would go Super Saiyan 2 in all of his battles.

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Despite Ultimate Gohan being able to increase his power through Super Saiyan transformations, Akira practically ignored this in Goku’s favor so that he could be the hero. Again, it goes back to Super Saiyan 1 or 2 Ultimate Gohan being able to take down almost any foe, and that would have made it difficult to write an opponent powerful enough to take him down.

What do you think about this theory? Could Ultimate Gohan truly go Super Saiyan 1 and 2? If so, how powerful would he have really been?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?

 

DBGT: Why Was Uub/Majuub So Underrated?

by Jeremy Carden

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It hurts me to see Goku’s pupil and one of the most powerful characters in the DBGT series so underrated. After 10 straight years of training with Goku, Uub was equal to Goku in base form.

Now a lot of people argue that these two are as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 or beyond. I like to keep things simple and based on my own perspective of the series; I feel that Goku (base form whether he is in his adult or kid body) and Uub are at least as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2. I do not feel that they are at a Super Saiyan 3 level of power though.

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With that being said, I think the only character aside from Super Saiyan Goku (and his other forms) that could defeat Uub would be Super Saiyan 1 or 2 Vegeta. Considering that Kid Goku (base form) was able to defeat Baby Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with relative ease, I think Uub would be able to do the same.

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Remember during his battle with Baby Vegeta, Uub was able to hold his own. After blasting Baby into a wall, the Baby-infected Gohan, Goten and Trunks rush to the scene to assist. However, Baby scolds them saying that he was only testing Uub’s power and that he might be stronger than all 3 of them combined. He then blasts them saying that they are useless to him now seemingly killing them all. Keep in mind that assists in confirming my earlier statement that Uub would be able to defeat the 3 Saiyan/Human hybrids with Vegeta being the only other character aside from Goku who could defeat him.

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After fusing with Mr. Buu, I think that Majuub is at least more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. I’m basing this on the fact that Majuub put up a better fight against Baby Vegeta than Goku did. Considering that Super Saiyan 3 is 4x as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 (Which I clock Uub’s power at), I’d say the fusion of Buu and Uub raised his power at least 4x over.

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Baby was struggling to keep up with Majuub’s attacks but he wasn’t even fazed by any of Goku’s hits saying that Goku had not gotten a bit stronger since their first battle on Earth. You could argue that it is because Goku wasn’t at 100% as a Super Saiyan 3. However, keep in mind that since his tail grew back (thanks to Old Kai) he was able to hold Super Saiyan 3 without reverting back to base form after transforming for a few seconds.

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Goku was fighting at his max but Baby was able to beat him with ease but it wasn’t until he overexerted himself was he able to deflect Majuub’s Chocolate Kamehameha. Remember before successfully pushing back Majuub’s attack, Baby’s muscles bulked up and gave him enough power to deflect Majuub’s move back at him changing him into chocolate.

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At the beginning of their fight, Baby commented on how Uub’s fighting style/techniques (despite having Goku’s “stink” on them) were probably even better than Goku’s but of course no match for him.

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Keep in mind that Uub said that as soon as he felt something strange occurring on Earth (Baby infecting people worldwide) he decided to go into the mountains and continue his training. I’m assuming that he masked his Ki to avoid Baby sensing him and placing an egg inside of his body. He must have also hid on the Capsule Corp. ship in order to get to the Tuffle Planet as well.

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So, Uub was more powerful than he was at the beginning of the series since he continued his training after leaving the Lookout.

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Looking at all of this information, I consider Majuub to have exceeded his master/mentor in terms of power. For a short period of time, Majuub was the most powerful Z-Fighter!

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At least until Goku went Super Saiyan 4 that is knocking Majuub to #2.

After being eaten by Baby it seemed that Majuub was digested and most likely dead. It was a shame since Goku was late by just a few seconds. I would have loved to see master and student team up to fight against Baby Vegeta!

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However, he “reemerged” inside of Baby or should I say Vegeta’s stomach in order to restrain the giant ape in order for Goku to get his power restored by Goten, Trunks and Gohan.

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It seemed as if Majuub had this planned all along. If he had been more powerful than Baby Vegeta then he would have just defeated him. Majuub must have planned ahead knowing that he could not win and instead opted to use a latent attack inside of Baby. This is similar to Goku’s delayed 10x Kamehameha Wave on Baby before.

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What made me mad about this scene was that instead of Goku getting his Ki restored, everyone stood around just gawking at Baby writhing in pain. It wasn’t until Kibito Kai yelled at Goku that he realized that Majuub was doing it all for him and they started powering up.

Goku promised a sparring match with Majuub after the battle with Baby was over but we never see it…

Here is where Majuub is reduced to a second rate character instead of second best (after SS4 Goku). Moving on to the World Tournament, he made it to the finals and actually thought that Mr. Satan was a powerful World Champion. He was using wrestling moves like the German Suplex and other submission holds before going in for the win. Buu showed up in his subconscious to remind Uub that Mr. Satan was the champion and if the Earthlings saw their champion defeated it would make them upset and sad.

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It seemed that Buu paralyzed Uub’s body allowing one punch from Hercule to send him out of the ring losing the match. Even when he tried to explain to Goku and the others that he did not lose the match on purpose and that it was Buu who told him to throw the match they just thought he was being modest. After seeing how happy Mr. Satan was he smiled as he was able to help out the champ.

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One a side note, Majuub’s disguise in the tournament as Papayaman was almost as ridiculous as Gohan’s Great Saiyaman days back in DBZ. I didn’t really see the point of it but oh well it was supposed to be a “filler” episode just to lead up to the Super 17 Saga but still…

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Remember at the end of DBZ, Goku told Goten and Trunks to continue their training because someday Uub would look to those two for leadership.

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In the end this was far from the truth because during the assault against the escaped villains from Hell, Majuub was the one “leading the force” to destroy all of the enemies while they were attacking cities around the globe.

He was even able to kill General Rilldo in one blast before he was able to turn Gohan completely into metal. That showed how powerful he was after fusing with Buu.

Against Super 17 he was easily defeated even with Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten along with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Vegeta attacking the Android.

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Now before the group transformed into their Super Saiyan forms, everyone attacked 17 which didn’t even faze the fused bot. what made me mad was that Majuub unleashed a barrage of punches and kicks that did nothing. Afterwards Majuub was huffing and puffing like he was exhausted! Just from that simple melee barrage, the most powerful Z-Fighter on Earth (Goku was in Hell) was tired?!?!?

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My guess is that because he had expended so much energy destroying all of the other villains attacking the earth he was a bit tired. I think that was part of Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu’s plan to wear out the Z-Team before unleashing their ultimate weapon.

That sounds good in theory and honestly I like to think that is the truth rather than them rewriting Majuub to be useless compared to Vegeta or the other Super Saiyans even though he exceeds them in power…

In any case, I feel that he was far too easily defeated by Super 17 and this was before he started absorbing Ki attacks.

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Though it is uncertain whether or not Super 17 absorbed Gohan’s Kamehameha Wave and Vegeta’s Final Shine attack.

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The Shadow Dragons Saga is where I feel Majuub was extremely underrated. He was the only one able to hold off Syn Shernon while Gohan, Goten and Trunks gave their Super Saiyan power to Goku in order to restore his Super Saiyan 4 power beyond his limits.

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After grabbing Syn from behind for a choke-hold, it actually appeared to injure Syn for a second. Powering up and emitting an aura was enough to surprise Syn by how hard he was holding him until Syn got out of the hold.

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He was easily defeated by Syn after he deflected one of his most powerful Ki blasts before the dragon countered with his own blast that hit Majuub in the face sending him hurtling to the ground.

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When Goku apparently defeated Syn with a 10x Kamehameha Wave, everyone gathered together to celebrate the victory. The only problem with that was no one even mentioned that Majuub was still missing after being attacked by Syn. I mean not one person even attempted to go look for him considering he got beaten pretty badly from that one blast.

You could argue that it was because Syn reemerged before anyone could do something but still. They were more concerned with finding the other Dragonballs without even bringing Majuub up. If it wasn’t for him stalling Syn, Goku would not have been able to get the power needed to defeat the dragon in the first place.

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It wasn’t until 1 ½ episodes later did Majuub resurface after Goku and Vegeta fused into Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. After struggling to make it back to the scene (again no one lifted a finger to help him), he suggested that he, Goten, Trunks and Gohan fuse; well of course Goten would fuse with Trunks and Gohan with Majuub. However, Gohan pointed out that they’d need to have the same power level for Fusion to work correctly and that Majuub should let his body heal first.

What I liked about that moment was it showed how much of a proactive character Majuub was. Even though he was seriously injured he thought it best to be out on the battlefield instead of just sitting around on the sidelines.

He wanted to fuse with someone in order to help out Gogeta. Even though it turned out that Gogeta was MORE than capable of taking down Omega, it would have been interesting to see 2 fused beings take on the powerful dragon. If anything perhaps the fusion of Majuub and Gohan would have convinced Gogeta to get the job done instead of playing around but it is one of those things that we will never know.

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He did see escape as hopeless after Omega launched the Negative Karma Ball because as everyone else was trying to evacuate before the blast hit, Majuub sensed that even if they tried to run away it wouldn’t matter because the entire planet would blow up if the bomb hit the ground.

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I was a little upset that he wasn’t in the group to help fight Omega with Vegeta and the others but it was because Goten told him to gather all of his villagers in Bulma’s spaceship in order to escape the planet.

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Majuub’s Candy Ray would have been able to defeat the Shadow Dragons, Baby Vegeta and maybe even Super 17 unless he absorbed the ray instead of being transformed after being hit with the attack.

Overall, I just hated to see one of the most powerful Z-Fighters reduced to nothing but a background character. Sure I know that GT pretty much made everyone who was not Goku look like Krillin or Yamcha in comparison to his power but still. I know this might be off topic but I feel that the ONLY reason Vegeta was able to go Super Saiyan 4 was just so the fans would see a Goku/Vegeta Fusion in the series! Due to that Majuub is #3…

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I mean Uub was Goku’s student and should have played a much larger role in the series. GT should have been more about the lives of Goku’s friends and sons rather than just about him. The series should have incorporated the idea of Uub being the protector of peace that Goku spent 10 years training him to be. Instead GT was an awkward attempt at mixing the action of DBZ with the more comedy driven original DB series and it just created bad result in my opinion.

Did you want to see more out of Uub/Majuub in the GT series?

Dragonball GT: Adult Gotenks

by Jeremy Carden

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Why didn’t Gohan go Mystic?

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How come Vegeta doesn’t go Super Saiyan 3?

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Was there a reason that Pan never went Super Saiyan?

These are some of the MANY questions that fans ask about the GT series. However there is one that baffles the minds of fans and makes them very angry due to the absence of one particular character in GT. What a lot of fans wanted to see was the adult version of Gotenks.

One of the most impressive things to me personally would be if Goten and Trunks got the Fusion Dance correct on their first attempt. There was a 10 year gap between Z and GT so Gotenks probably didn’t appear during that time.

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They did use the Fusion Dance in the movie/special that took place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu, Yo! Son Goku and his friends return! However they got it incorrect on their first try and then got it right on their second try admitting that they were out of practice.

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In the next movie Battle of Gods which takes place 3 years later, they get it down on their first attempt BUT a quick spanking from Bills takes Super Saiyan Gotenks out of the fight.

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Well moving on 5 years later we see Goten and Trunks at age 17 and 18 but no sign of Gotenks most likely due to no major threat at the end of Z it is just them fighting in the World Tournament.

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So, moving on 10 years later we arrive at the beginning of GT. Originally Vegeta and Chi-Chi were going to send the two slacker Saiyans into space with Goku to find the Blackstar Dragonballs. However due to Pan basically doing something that contributed to this series going down the toilet…

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She pressed the start button to go into space leaving Goten behind so for a year there was no Gotenks in sight. The reason I say year is since they have a full year to find the balls and bring them back before the Earth explodes.

I’ll go on a limb and say what a lot of fans might just agree on; there were PLENTY of times when Gotenks could have or should have made an appearance!

I’m sure if Goten were in space with Trunks and Goku instead of Pan, Gotenks was going to throw down on some galactic monsters and robots!

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Come on I could see Gotenks fighting against General Rilldo or Luud and those would have been some interesting battles instead of seeing a Kid Goku just beat every down like they were nothing.

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Another reason I’m confident in Gotenks being seen during their travels in space is because Goten AND Trunks had not been training at all. Think about all of the time Trunks was EASILY taken down during battles.

  1. Ledgic wiped him out with one punch
  2. Cardinal Mutchy Mutchy distracted him with a whip and threw him to the ground leaving it to Goku to finish him off
  3. Mutchy held off Trunks for awhile with a pile of bricks thanks to his psychic abilities and it was only after turning Super Saiyan was he able to get them off of him
  4. One mouth blast took him out of the battle with Luud again leaving it up to Goku to win (along with Pan’s help)

Just a few examples of how Trunks’ lack of training didn’t do anything positive while traveling with Goku. It pretty much proves that Vegeta was right with him and Goten being way too soft during the times of peace.

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Moving on to later in the Baby Saga, Gotenks should have appeared during the fight with the giant Golden Ape Baby. However, Goku said that Gotenks would not be enough even if Gohan, Gotenks and himself fought.

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He then opted to take their energy to recharge himself to a full power Super Saiyan 4. The flaw I see in this is that Gotenks most likely could have offered more Ki to Goku than Goten and Trunks separately. Not to mention they probably could have recharged Goku even faster than they did by doing the Fusion.

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I would have loved to see Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks trying his hand at stopping that rampaging ape!

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Then in the Super 17 Saga, even though it would not have been necessary (except against General Rilldo most likely) to take out all of the returning villains Gotenks could have been used to take them out with ease.

Alright now here is where we get to the point that it was outright ridiculous for Goten and Trunks to have not fused! The 2 Android 17s fused into Super 17 but Goten and Trunks opted to fight solo…

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Seriously, the two Androids fused to become a much stronger being but Gotenks did not appear to fight? Really the writers screwed up on that one! I know with Gotenks being as cocky as he is, I’m sure he’d get in some massive Ki attacks that would have just made Super 17 stronger but still it would have been cool to see.

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Finally we get to the Shadow Dragons Saga when all of the Z Fighters unite to help Goku against Syn/Omega Shenron. Again the Saiyans are used as “batteries” to recharge Goku so he could surpass his limits as a Super Saiyan 4.

Gotenks should have appeared to help charge up Goku faster but again…oh well you know what happens!

When trying to stall Omega for Goku and Vegeta to fuse, it makes sense that Goten and Trunks don’t fuse because those two and Gohan gave their Super Saiyan powers to Goku so them not even going Super Saiyan to stall Omega was understandable since their powers probably hadn’t returned yet.

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After Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta makes the scene, Majuub (who everyone seemed to forget about after he got blasted in the face by Syn) appears saying that they should fuse to help out. However Gohan points out that their power levels wouldn’t be equal since Majuub got injured so badly and that he should heal first.

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Then in the final stand against Omega before his defeat by the Universal Spirit Bomb, Gohan/Trunks/Goten return to help Vegeta fight off the dragon but are quickly defeated. Again I was another chance for Gotenks to appear to help give them a better chance even if it was a slim one.

It is a shame Gotenks had multiple opportunities to appear in GT but the writers just didn’t deliver. What I would have loved to see more than anything else was if Gotenks would have any new or crazy attacks in his arsenal. Remember Goten and Trunks were not even 10 and they had deadly attacks like the Super Ghosts and Galactic Doughnut! I think that is what would have made me laugh the most seeing Gotenks goofy around with dangerous opponents like Omega or Super 17.

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However in the Japanese Arcade Game Dragonball Heroes we are finally given an Adult Gotenks!

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What a lot of fans question is the change in Gotenks outfit; black undershirt, Capsule Corp. boots and Trunks’ gloves instead of the traditional Fusion Dance outfit. I think it is an interesting change so they would not look like another Gogeta after fusing but that is just my opinion.

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This seriously would have been one of the things that could have improved GT. In the trailer for DB Heroes, Adult Gotenks appears fighting Oceanus Shenron along with other characters in the game. Not to jump off topic but I think that if the Shadow Dragon Saga did not just focus a majority of time on Pan and Goku it would have been a lot better than it was.

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Something I might cover in another blog is my opinion on how the Shadow Dragon Saga should have been Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Majuub, Goten and Trunks going off to different locations to fight individual Shadow Dragons before coming up against Syn Shenron before a final showdown with Omega. That again would have been a chance for Gotenks to fight in the GT series!

 

What are your thoughts on the absence of Gotenks in the GT series? And do you feel that his appearance in DB Heroes is a hint of things to come in future DB games?

Dragonball GT: Who was stronger Super Saiyan 4 Goku or Great Ape Baby?

by Jeremy Carden

This is one of the long standing debates of Dragonball GT which begs the question which one of these 2 was the most powerful.

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If you ask me the battle between Goku and Great Golden Ape Baby Vegeta is like a seesaw in that the tables kept turning to the point that it is difficult to tell which of these two was actually winning.

There were multiple factors that came into play during their fight that makes me unsure as to who was more powerful;

  1. One of the most important being the size difference between Goku and Baby after he turned into an ape
  2. Baby losing slight control over himself as the Old Kai stated
  3. Bulma turning the tide of the battle in Baby’s favor with the Blutz Wave Machine
  4. Goku’s Ki being recharged by his sons, Trunks and Pan

And the list goes on as to how the battle went back and forth when it seemed like one side had the advantage over the other. To make things a bit easier to comprehend, I’ll go over what we do know about the battle between Goku and Baby.

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Well Goku was pretty much a mindless beast as a Great Golden Ape just thrashing around the Planet Tuffle. Even when Baby tried attack him it only resulted in him being smacked around until he decided to retreat in order to reach the same kind of power. It wasn’t until Pan helped him realize who he was and what he was fighting for that Goku snapped out of his animal instincts and reached Super Saiyan 4!

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He was toying around with Baby at first letting him score melee attacks and Ki blasts which ended up doing nothing but make Goku retort that they only felt like a feather. Even a Revenge Death Ball (which was supposed to kill Goku in their first fight on Earth until Kibito Kai saved him) did absolutely nothing to Goku.

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After letting Baby get his attacks in with no success, the gloves were off and Goku mopped the floor with the Saiyan/Tuffle!

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Just when Goku was able to kill Baby Vegeta with a Kamehameha Wave that was when the tide turned and Bulma’s Blutz Wave Generator/Machine transformed Super Baby Vegeta into a Great Ape.

Now Goku was shocked that his opponent whom he was about to kill had powered up and the tide of the battle changed.

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Well if Goku had gone ahead and killed him while he had the chance then it wouldn’t have ended up this way. Even Old and Kibito Kai said that he shouldn’t be toying around with Baby…

In any case, the battle started with Baby acting like well an ape. It was basically a repeat of Baby vs. Goku as an ape with him smacking Goku around. Baby spent most of his time rampaging like an ape reigning down destruction to his own planet and killing his own followers. People were screaming in terror at the Ki blasts and Flame Breath he was using on the city.

It wasn’t until later we discover that Baby was acting like an ape simply to act like an ape and to know what it felt like to be Goku; an out of control ape.

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Though after Goku took the full force of a Super Galick Gun in order to save the Earth from blowing up, Old Kai mentions that the method of growing back his tail through the Blutz Wave Machine actually had a negative effect that was evident in Baby’s eyes and this caused Baby to experience fits of rage and a loss of control. The Saiyan instincts were taking over and Baby was fighting to keep his sanity. Even before being hit by the rays from the machine, he asked Bulma if he would be able to control himself because he only wanted to kill Goku not wreck his whole planet.

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When Baby was about to finish off Goku he was shocked to discover that the 10x Kamehameha Wave was actually a latent attack in order to catch Baby off guard.

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After that Goku and Baby knocked each other out cold!

So that was pretty much Round 1 of their battle and we really don’t know WHO was more powerful because knocking each other out generally means that they were more or less even.

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One of the most impressive feats of the battle was Goku literally throwing Baby to the ground by grabbing one of his fingers. That is pretty powerful considering that Goku wasn’t emitting an aura showing that he was holding back power in that moment.

Right before that Goku was able to break out of Baby’s powerful grip by powering up!

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So that might indicate that Goku was more powerful but the size difference between him and Baby prevented him from a quick victory.

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Though I must admit that if Goku WAS more powerful than Baby why did he have to rely on a delayed Kamehameha Wave to distract Baby? If he could have emitted enough Ki to kill Baby once and for all (which I actually thought he did) then why didn’t he do it? I’m guessing because he couldn’t but that’s just my opinion.

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When Bulma fires ALL the Blutz Waves being emitted from the Earth it not only revives Baby but it makes him more powerful and physically bigger than before. The negative effect that had on Goku was that his Ki was depleted heavily since the Earth was taking the place of the full moon and since all the Blutz Waves were being sent to Baby, Goku was getting weaker.

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Baby was so powerful that just by giving out a roar he was able to destroy buildings and his power was felt by Trunks who was far off on another section of the planet flying towards the action after being freed from Baby’s control thanks to the Sacred Water.

Goku being out of energy was bluffing until Baby called it and was on the verge of killing him until Pan stepped in. Goten, Gohan and Trunks arrive on the scene and Goku asks for them to give him their Ki so he can become a full power Super Saiyan 4 once again.

Pan says that it IS the only way because before Bulma’s machine made Baby more powerful, Goku had that ape on the ground! Now here is the line that a lot of fans use as proof of Goku being more powerful;

Baby; “That little brat is right, I cannot let him power up again!”

This might indicate fear because if Baby was 100% confident in his new power then he would do what any other villain in the past would do and let his opponent power up seeing it as no threat; Cell did this with Gohan and Buuhan was willing to let Goku fuse with someone using the Potara Earrings but Baby was like Frieza and paranoid of the threat of a Super Saiyan or in this case Super Saiyan 4.

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From there he starts attacking the group to prevent them from giving Goku their Ki. Now here is where I figure that Baby was weakened. After recovering from the Solar Flare, Baby charged up a Super Galick Gun and prepared to kill the group before he is attacked from the inside!

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Majuub who was previously eaten by Baby after being hit by his own Chocolate Beam reverts to his human self and powers up inside of Baby’s digestive system crippling the giant ape. If you ask me I think that Majuub’s assault brought Baby’s power down. Seriously Baby was in severe pain as if he was losing a battle against extreme indigestion. After spitting Majuub out he attempted another Galick Gun to kill the Saiyans BUT it was too late…

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Goku was once again at full power!!!

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Moving on to the final round of their battle he and Goku fire Ki blasts at each other and pause with both panting very hard. This again shows that they were more or less on even ground. Even Gohan and Trunks comment on how they are more or less even with Gohan mentioning that Baby might have the upper hand since Goku had taken more damage only for Pan to say that Goku HAS to win this.

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Now here is where things go wrong on Baby’s part; he starts throwing a temper tantrum making rash attempts at killing Goku. Back when Goku lost his first battle with Baby, he discovered that it was Baby’s weakness that he didn’t like being made fun of because he would throw a fit losing his cool. Goku did the same here mocking Baby saying that his Super Galick Gun probably would have hurt…if it actually hit him that its…

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Baby fires a powerful Super Galick Gun which Goku dodges with ease and that just makes Baby angrier. He pulls off a rapid fire version of the Super Galick Gun that doesn’t even hit Goku but instead causing lava to emerge from underneath the ground causing a HUGE cloud of smoke where he finds cover for his final attack.

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He charges up the Revenge Death Ball Final in an attempt to kill Goku once and for all. Goku doesn’t dodge but catches the blast but is pushed into a cliff where he is absorbed by the blast and feels the negative Ki breaking his body but his will and love for his friends and family somehow allows him to absorb the attack?

Yeah I’ll get into that later…

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From there he powers up a 10x Kamehameha Wave that knocks out Baby before blasting his tail off which forces him to revert back to his Baby Vegeta form and he exits Vegeta’s body in an attempt to escape the planet.

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Goku waits until his ship is at the right angle and blasts him into the sun!

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Baby is fried to a crisp at that is the end of the Tuffle!

Alright so in the end Goku wins that battle with the Great Ape. The question still remains though who was stronger? I suppose that Goku as a Super Saiyan 4 IS more powerful but there is still room for debate as I mentioned above. There were a lot of factors that tipped the scales of this battle in Goku AND Baby’s favor with no true clear winner.

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We don’t know how much a Great Golden Ape transformation multiplies a Saiyan’s power. The regular Great Ape form is a 10x power increase. Many fans say that the Great Golden Ape form is the “Super Saiyan of Legend” that Vegeta talked about in the Ginyu Saga. He even says that the Saiyan could only hold the form while in the Great Ape state. However, that is only in anime filler and never mentioned/seen in the manga so it is up to you as to whether or not you feel that Saiyan from Vegeta’s story IS the Great Golden Ape or aka the Super Saiyan of Legend. Well GT is non-canon so it is what it is and I’ll leave it at that.

I’ll be one to say that I do believe that the Great Golden Ape and the Saiyan from Vegeta’s story IS the same transformation. Vegeta said that the Saiyan was drunk with power destroying the planet he was on and as a result killing him.

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Goku was practically doing the same to the Tuffle Planet causing volcanic activity until he was reaching up for the earth showing that he had some memory of his “former self” which Pan helped him to remember.

In any case with some fans believing the Great Golden Ape form to be the “Super Saiyan” version of the Great Ape form some say that the form is a 50x increase of the base power just like a Super Saiyan transformation is. I GUESS this is a plausible theory because the Great Ape form is the true form of a Saiyan which is 10x the Saiyan’s power so if the Golden Ape is 50x that it would mean that Great Golden Ape Goku is 500x more powerful than base form Goku.

Super Saiyan 4 is 10x stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 meaning 4000x base power so…

Yeah it is really up to you to decide how you feel about that.

Great Ape Baby Vegeta was not just Vegeta’s power it was Baby’s as well. Keep in mind that Baby alone was not that powerful.

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Let’s see Baby had grown into a “teenager Baby” before taking over Vegeta’s body. He had gotten huge power boosts from taking over Goten and Gohan. Then he absorbed Ki from Trunks, Bulla, Gohan and Goten allowing him to transform into Baby Vegeta 2.

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Finally, he absorbs the Ki from the Earthlings-turned-Tuffles which was all negative Ki from their hatred of the Saiyans for the Revenge Death Ball which transformed him into Super Baby Vegeta.

So Baby Vegeta received 2 huge power ups prior to becoming a Great Golden Ape.

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And I believe the reason he wasn’t able to go Super Saiyan 4 even though he was “in control” of himself for the most part as a Great Golden Ape was because Vegeta wasn’t the one in control and Vegeta was technically a Tuffle and not a full blooded Saiyan. From what I can gather anyone who is not 100% Saiyan is not able to turn SS4. So Gohan, Goten and Trunks being 50% wouldn’t be able to turn SS4 which is ridiculous in my book.

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Finally, going back to what I mentioned before; how the heck did Goku survive those Revenge Death Balls?

I kind of feel that the reason he was able to do so was because those attacks were not enough to destroy him. Either that or the fact that the attack is made of 100% negative Ki which is the exact opposite of the Spirit Bomb which is made of 100% positive energy. The reason Goku could survive it was because he is a positive being well at least in base and Full Power Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 1 he is pure of heart.

Now as a Super Saiyan 4 I don’t think he is but since this is GT I don’t know if the same rules apply…

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I’m going out on a limb and say that Goku was so powerful that the Revenge Death Ball and the Flaming Death Ball were not powerful enough to inflict major or any damage to him.

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But when in terms of the Revenge Death Ball Final that was complete bull! Goku was literally trapped in the center of the blast and was suffering from the attack. It wasn’t until he refused to lose for the sake of his loved ones was he able to overpower the attack and it literally seemed like he absorbed the attack somehow.

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Kind of like how he did Bills’ ultimate attack in Battle of Gods…just throwing that out there…

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I’m just guessing that his positive energy overpowered the attack like how SS4 Gogeta was able to use his own life force to transform Omega Shenron’s Negative Karma Ball into positive energy and that attack was 100% negative energy as well so let’s say that is the reason Goku was able to “absorb” or cancel out the attack.

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So in the end Super Saiyan 4 Goku reigns supreme! Baby had to deal with his own temper tantrums, the psychological battle with himself and the Saiyan body he was controlling and a smaller/faster opponent. Goku had to deal with a larger opponent, Baby Vegeta was arguably insane threatening to blow up Earth which caused Goku to jump into an attack to save the planet, a huge loss of Ki thanks to Bulma’s machine and finally a beating from the Great Ape that almost killed him until he got his Ki recovered.

If Baby Vegeta DID go Super Saiyan 4 then who knows who the victor might have been…

Overall, I think Majuub did weaken Baby Vegeta lowering his power enough for Goku to more or less have the upper hand.

What do you think was Goku outright the most powerful of the 2 or did Baby have more power but was outsmarted by Goku?