Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

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DBGT: Why Was Uub/Majuub So Underrated?

by Jeremy Carden

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It hurts me to see Goku’s pupil and one of the most powerful characters in the DBGT series so underrated. After 10 straight years of training with Goku, Uub was equal to Goku in base form.

Now a lot of people argue that these two are as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 or beyond. I like to keep things simple and based on my own perspective of the series; I feel that Goku (base form whether he is in his adult or kid body) and Uub are at least as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2. I do not feel that they are at a Super Saiyan 3 level of power though.

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With that being said, I think the only character aside from Super Saiyan Goku (and his other forms) that could defeat Uub would be Super Saiyan 1 or 2 Vegeta. Considering that Kid Goku (base form) was able to defeat Baby Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with relative ease, I think Uub would be able to do the same.

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Remember during his battle with Baby Vegeta, Uub was able to hold his own. After blasting Baby into a wall, the Baby-infected Gohan, Goten and Trunks rush to the scene to assist. However, Baby scolds them saying that he was only testing Uub’s power and that he might be stronger than all 3 of them combined. He then blasts them saying that they are useless to him now seemingly killing them all. Keep in mind that assists in confirming my earlier statement that Uub would be able to defeat the 3 Saiyan/Human hybrids with Vegeta being the only other character aside from Goku who could defeat him.

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After fusing with Mr. Buu, I think that Majuub is at least more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. I’m basing this on the fact that Majuub put up a better fight against Baby Vegeta than Goku did. Considering that Super Saiyan 3 is 4x as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 (Which I clock Uub’s power at), I’d say the fusion of Buu and Uub raised his power at least 4x over.

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Baby was struggling to keep up with Majuub’s attacks but he wasn’t even fazed by any of Goku’s hits saying that Goku had not gotten a bit stronger since their first battle on Earth. You could argue that it is because Goku wasn’t at 100% as a Super Saiyan 3. However, keep in mind that since his tail grew back (thanks to Old Kai) he was able to hold Super Saiyan 3 without reverting back to base form after transforming for a few seconds.

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Goku was fighting at his max but Baby was able to beat him with ease but it wasn’t until he overexerted himself was he able to deflect Majuub’s Chocolate Kamehameha. Remember before successfully pushing back Majuub’s attack, Baby’s muscles bulked up and gave him enough power to deflect Majuub’s move back at him changing him into chocolate.

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At the beginning of their fight, Baby commented on how Uub’s fighting style/techniques (despite having Goku’s “stink” on them) were probably even better than Goku’s but of course no match for him.

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Keep in mind that Uub said that as soon as he felt something strange occurring on Earth (Baby infecting people worldwide) he decided to go into the mountains and continue his training. I’m assuming that he masked his Ki to avoid Baby sensing him and placing an egg inside of his body. He must have also hid on the Capsule Corp. ship in order to get to the Tuffle Planet as well.

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So, Uub was more powerful than he was at the beginning of the series since he continued his training after leaving the Lookout.

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Looking at all of this information, I consider Majuub to have exceeded his master/mentor in terms of power. For a short period of time, Majuub was the most powerful Z-Fighter!

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At least until Goku went Super Saiyan 4 that is knocking Majuub to #2.

After being eaten by Baby it seemed that Majuub was digested and most likely dead. It was a shame since Goku was late by just a few seconds. I would have loved to see master and student team up to fight against Baby Vegeta!

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However, he “reemerged” inside of Baby or should I say Vegeta’s stomach in order to restrain the giant ape in order for Goku to get his power restored by Goten, Trunks and Gohan.

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It seemed as if Majuub had this planned all along. If he had been more powerful than Baby Vegeta then he would have just defeated him. Majuub must have planned ahead knowing that he could not win and instead opted to use a latent attack inside of Baby. This is similar to Goku’s delayed 10x Kamehameha Wave on Baby before.

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What made me mad about this scene was that instead of Goku getting his Ki restored, everyone stood around just gawking at Baby writhing in pain. It wasn’t until Kibito Kai yelled at Goku that he realized that Majuub was doing it all for him and they started powering up.

Goku promised a sparring match with Majuub after the battle with Baby was over but we never see it…

Here is where Majuub is reduced to a second rate character instead of second best (after SS4 Goku). Moving on to the World Tournament, he made it to the finals and actually thought that Mr. Satan was a powerful World Champion. He was using wrestling moves like the German Suplex and other submission holds before going in for the win. Buu showed up in his subconscious to remind Uub that Mr. Satan was the champion and if the Earthlings saw their champion defeated it would make them upset and sad.

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It seemed that Buu paralyzed Uub’s body allowing one punch from Hercule to send him out of the ring losing the match. Even when he tried to explain to Goku and the others that he did not lose the match on purpose and that it was Buu who told him to throw the match they just thought he was being modest. After seeing how happy Mr. Satan was he smiled as he was able to help out the champ.

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One a side note, Majuub’s disguise in the tournament as Papayaman was almost as ridiculous as Gohan’s Great Saiyaman days back in DBZ. I didn’t really see the point of it but oh well it was supposed to be a “filler” episode just to lead up to the Super 17 Saga but still…

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Remember at the end of DBZ, Goku told Goten and Trunks to continue their training because someday Uub would look to those two for leadership.

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In the end this was far from the truth because during the assault against the escaped villains from Hell, Majuub was the one “leading the force” to destroy all of the enemies while they were attacking cities around the globe.

He was even able to kill General Rilldo in one blast before he was able to turn Gohan completely into metal. That showed how powerful he was after fusing with Buu.

Against Super 17 he was easily defeated even with Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten along with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Vegeta attacking the Android.

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Now before the group transformed into their Super Saiyan forms, everyone attacked 17 which didn’t even faze the fused bot. what made me mad was that Majuub unleashed a barrage of punches and kicks that did nothing. Afterwards Majuub was huffing and puffing like he was exhausted! Just from that simple melee barrage, the most powerful Z-Fighter on Earth (Goku was in Hell) was tired?!?!?

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My guess is that because he had expended so much energy destroying all of the other villains attacking the earth he was a bit tired. I think that was part of Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu’s plan to wear out the Z-Team before unleashing their ultimate weapon.

That sounds good in theory and honestly I like to think that is the truth rather than them rewriting Majuub to be useless compared to Vegeta or the other Super Saiyans even though he exceeds them in power…

In any case, I feel that he was far too easily defeated by Super 17 and this was before he started absorbing Ki attacks.

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Though it is uncertain whether or not Super 17 absorbed Gohan’s Kamehameha Wave and Vegeta’s Final Shine attack.

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The Shadow Dragons Saga is where I feel Majuub was extremely underrated. He was the only one able to hold off Syn Shernon while Gohan, Goten and Trunks gave their Super Saiyan power to Goku in order to restore his Super Saiyan 4 power beyond his limits.

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After grabbing Syn from behind for a choke-hold, it actually appeared to injure Syn for a second. Powering up and emitting an aura was enough to surprise Syn by how hard he was holding him until Syn got out of the hold.

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He was easily defeated by Syn after he deflected one of his most powerful Ki blasts before the dragon countered with his own blast that hit Majuub in the face sending him hurtling to the ground.

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When Goku apparently defeated Syn with a 10x Kamehameha Wave, everyone gathered together to celebrate the victory. The only problem with that was no one even mentioned that Majuub was still missing after being attacked by Syn. I mean not one person even attempted to go look for him considering he got beaten pretty badly from that one blast.

You could argue that it was because Syn reemerged before anyone could do something but still. They were more concerned with finding the other Dragonballs without even bringing Majuub up. If it wasn’t for him stalling Syn, Goku would not have been able to get the power needed to defeat the dragon in the first place.

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It wasn’t until 1 ½ episodes later did Majuub resurface after Goku and Vegeta fused into Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. After struggling to make it back to the scene (again no one lifted a finger to help him), he suggested that he, Goten, Trunks and Gohan fuse; well of course Goten would fuse with Trunks and Gohan with Majuub. However, Gohan pointed out that they’d need to have the same power level for Fusion to work correctly and that Majuub should let his body heal first.

What I liked about that moment was it showed how much of a proactive character Majuub was. Even though he was seriously injured he thought it best to be out on the battlefield instead of just sitting around on the sidelines.

He wanted to fuse with someone in order to help out Gogeta. Even though it turned out that Gogeta was MORE than capable of taking down Omega, it would have been interesting to see 2 fused beings take on the powerful dragon. If anything perhaps the fusion of Majuub and Gohan would have convinced Gogeta to get the job done instead of playing around but it is one of those things that we will never know.

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He did see escape as hopeless after Omega launched the Negative Karma Ball because as everyone else was trying to evacuate before the blast hit, Majuub sensed that even if they tried to run away it wouldn’t matter because the entire planet would blow up if the bomb hit the ground.

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I was a little upset that he wasn’t in the group to help fight Omega with Vegeta and the others but it was because Goten told him to gather all of his villagers in Bulma’s spaceship in order to escape the planet.

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Majuub’s Candy Ray would have been able to defeat the Shadow Dragons, Baby Vegeta and maybe even Super 17 unless he absorbed the ray instead of being transformed after being hit with the attack.

Overall, I just hated to see one of the most powerful Z-Fighters reduced to nothing but a background character. Sure I know that GT pretty much made everyone who was not Goku look like Krillin or Yamcha in comparison to his power but still. I know this might be off topic but I feel that the ONLY reason Vegeta was able to go Super Saiyan 4 was just so the fans would see a Goku/Vegeta Fusion in the series! Due to that Majuub is #3…

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I mean Uub was Goku’s student and should have played a much larger role in the series. GT should have been more about the lives of Goku’s friends and sons rather than just about him. The series should have incorporated the idea of Uub being the protector of peace that Goku spent 10 years training him to be. Instead GT was an awkward attempt at mixing the action of DBZ with the more comedy driven original DB series and it just created bad result in my opinion.

Did you want to see more out of Uub/Majuub in the GT series?