Could Gogeta or Vegito Defeat Jiren? | Dragon Ball Super

By Jeremy Carden

I am not sure if this was already mentioned in one of my previous blogs, but I was originally against the idea of Goku and Vegeta fusing during the Tournament of Power.

Yes, this went for both Gogeta (Fusion Dance) and Vegito (Potara Earrings).

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I felt like the Tournament of Power had already handed out enough transformations, power-ups, fusion (Kefla and the Universe 6 Namekians). However, I think the change in tone of the final battle between Universes 7 and 11 has given me a new perspective about fusion.

Goku and Vegeta fusing now would seem appropriate instead of being nothing more than mere fan service like it was during the Zamasu/Goku Black arc or at the end of GT.

In the last episode, Vegeta said that he was willing to do whatever it took to defeat Jiren. 17’s sacrifice to buy the Saiyans sometime for them to recover some stamina would have been the trigger for them to fuse.

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The Saiyans pulled out all the stops to defeat the powerful alien of Universe 11. They tried a Spirit Bomb, Kaio Ken times 20, Ultra Instinct Omen, Final Flash, Limit-Breaker Vegeta, etc.

Heck, Goku even organized a coordinated attack with 17 and Vegeta and that still wasn’t enough!

With both warriors barely able to stand, they refused to surrender considering Vegeta’s promise to Cabba and Goku’s resolve to avenge 17.

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If done right, I believe this would have been one of the most epic battles of the entire franchise. Yes, I am certain that we would see very powerful attacks and fight sequences. However, I think the meaning behind the battle would be even greater than the fight itself.

Jiren does not trust anyone except for himself and his own belief in absolute power standing above all.

Who better to show Jiren that trusting each other and what it means to draw strength from a desire to protect something other than yourself than Goku and Vegeta?

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Remember that they made it clear during Resurrection F/Golden Frieza Saga that they would rather fight alone without helping each other due to their pride.

They did put their differences aside to fuse into Vegito to face Merged Zamasu because the stakes were way too high for either one of them to handle alone. It was for the sake of saving Trunks’ timeline.

Here the same rules apply because they would be fusing to save their entire universe from being erased.

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Since Dragon Ball Super is ending soon, it was just revealed that Goku would be obtaining full mastery of Ultra Instinct. This new level of Ultra Instinct will have the Saiyan sporting white/silver hair. Fans are already split over this new form, but I will wait until I see it in the anime before I form an opinion of my own.

Would Gogeta or Vegito have a mastered version of Ultra Instinct if Goku and Vegeta fused? I would like to say yes because both Saiyans had reached a limit-breaker form.

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Having them fuse with Vegeta (attack) and Goku (defense) having one piece of the puzzle that is Ultra Instinct would have been amazing to see!

In the end, Jiren would eat a piece of humble pie while finally accepting the fact that trust is not a weakness but a strength. It is something far more absolute than any level of strength of that Jiren could achieve on his own.

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Gogeta or Vegito should be more than capable of handing Jiren. Considering that Goku with Ultra Instinct will being giving Jiren a run for his money, I do not believe that a Goku/Vegeta fusion would not be able to get the job done.

Yeah, I might be looking too deep into this subject, but I’d much rather see a brotherhood between these Saiyans to show this emotionless bastard what ‘absolute power’ truly is!

Thoughts?

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Could Kefla Defeat Jiren? | Dragon Ball Super

by Jeremy Carden

Obviously, this post will contain spoilers about the results of Dragon Ball Super Episode 116. Make sure you take that into consideration before going any further. 

Now, I am glad that this episode took its time in terms of having the characters describing the amount of power each fighter had. However, I think that Kefla was way too overpowered!

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For starters, Whis stated that Super Saiyan Kefla’s power rivaled that of the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb; which Roshi said would have defeated Jiren had it hit its target. This explains how Kefla was able to push Goku far enough for him to reactivate Ultra Instinct.

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After she went Super Saiyan 2 against Goku, Piccolo theorized that her power might have even surpassed Goku’s during his first bout with Jiren using Ultra Instinct!

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Before charging at Goku, Kefla boasts that she feels like her power could destroy an ENTIRE universe!

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It is hard to believe that only a couple of days ago, these female Saiyans did not even know what Super Saiyan was. Now, they have obtained one transformation after another, and Potara on top of that!

Fans have been in an uproar about the Universe 6 Saiyans obtaining all of these transformations with ease, but Universe 7 Saiyans had to go through years of training to obtain their power.

I do not fault Cabba at all because for the two levels of Super Saiyan he has gained, he had to actually work for them! His body was nearly broken and his emotions were pushed to the limits. Even though he is weaker than Kale and Caulifla, I think his characters speaks volumes above the girls.

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After becoming enraged over her attacks not hitting Goku, Kefla digs even deeper for more power. Cabba states her power is swelling even larger than before, and Roshi says Goku would lose if he got hit with even one of her attacks at this level.

In the video below, I go into far more detail about Kefla’s power. However, I think that she was written to be too much of a good thing. Yes, it was good to have female Super Saiyans introduced into the franchise, but it was all too much too soon.

It is crazy to think that if she went Super Saiyan 3, her power would have been multiplied by four. However, I think that four would have been the minimum increase because of her bottomless potential! For all we know, she might have obtained some sort of Super Saiyan 3 Berserker transformation! Which I think would have been the trigger to defusing Kefla before the battle could be won.

Remember that Super Saiyan Gotenks could only be utilized for five minutes before Goten and Trunks’ Fusion Dance would split. So, Gotenks had to think carefully before using this form.

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Based on the two pictures above, I actually thought that she was going to go Super Saiyan 3 based on her frustration and posture. That hunched positioning of the body is the typical stance for someone about to go Super Saiyan 3!

Considering all of the power that she was using, I was not going to be the least bit surprised had she defused before landing a finishing blow on Goku.

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I dare say that she may have been able to surpass even Jiren! That might come across as an unbelievable statement, but look at what the writers have done with her so far.

Overall, I have watched the episode around eight times alright. It literally felt like a Dragon Ball Z episode because the first 8-9 minutes consisted of nothing but Goku and Kelfa powering up while everyone is in awe of their strength!

I was a bit bored in the sense that watching two characters fighting, but one not being able to land a blow can get kind of old. Anyone reading this a Pokemon anime/video game fan?

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Don’t you feel that same level of annoyance whenever an opponent uses Double Team, Sand Attack or anything to increase their ability to dodge attacks? It gets so annoying because the battle drags on longer than it should because one Pokemon can’t land an attack at all, and their opponent just attacks whenever it wants to.

One of the worst examples of this was in the Black and White anime (arguably, the worst Pokemon series). It was during the finals of the Jr. Cup World Tournament between Trip’s Serperior and Ash’s Pignite.

During this tournament, Serperior was able to make quick work of every opponent that it was up against. To add insult to injury, this was the only Pokemon that Trip used in the entire tournament. Pignite did everything that it could, but none of its attacks landed.

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Serperior was just using its natural speed without the use of a move like Double Team and it was able to move around each attack like it was nothing. Heck, Pignite was spamming Flame Charge to increase its speed, but even that did not work! That resulted in probably one of the worst battles to watch because it was about five minutes of straight attacking and dodging until Serperior won…

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I did not feel as upset about watching Goku and Kefla but it was almost getting to that point. However, Goku made up for it with that EPIC Kamehameha to the face! It was so epic that we had to see it THREE times from different angles before Kefla was knocked out of the match.

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At least in this episode, we get a twist since Whis points out that even though Goku is handling Kefla with ease, he can’t utilize Ultra Instinct when he attacks because he is still “thinking” of the attack instead of naturally allowing himself to attack. That explains how Kefla as able to get up and dust herself off after each attack.

That is kind of ironic because Kefla’s attacks had the potential to defeat Goku if even one blast landed, but none of Goku’s moves that made contact could finish the job!

Maybe he will be able to master Ultra Instinct before his next match with Jiren.

Do you think Kefla was too overpowered? Do you think she could have defeated Jiren had she obtained Super Saiyan 3? Are you a bit surprised that she did not defuse after exhausting so much power as an enraged Super Saiyan 2? 

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Will Goku And Vegeta Fuse? | Dragon Ball Super

by Jeremy Carden

If Potara Fusion is allowed during the Tournament of Power, do you think that Universe 7’s full-blooded Saiyans merge once again?

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We saw Vegito emerge during the fight with Fused Zamasu, but that was only for seven minutes. If these two use the earrings to fuse again, I think they will be more cautious about how much energy they utilize at once.

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Remember that the Final Kamehameha at Super Saiyan Blue reduced their fusion time from 60 minutes to a mere seven! Since there are 22 minutes left in the tournament, I think that Vegito could better utilize his ki until the timer runs out.

In the video below, I go into more detail about how Vegeta seems to be more of an assist character in this tournament. Because of this reason, it would make sense for him and Goku to combine their forces especially against the likes of Jiren!

I think that Vegito (or Gogeta) would be a great asset to Universe 7. Considering they still have seven members left, they are doing the best so far in the tournament.

Ultra Instinct seems to be the key weapon for Beerus’ team at the moment, but fusion would not be a bad thing to have in their back pocket as well.

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Jiren was able to crush Goku, but I do not think he would be able to do the same to a Vegito that has a taste of Ultra Instinct himself!

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Do you think we will see Goku and Vegeta put their differences aside once again in order to save their universe? Vegeta was not a volunteer for Goku’s Universe 7 Spirit Bomb, and most fans would consider this to be a sign that he has not interest in fusing with his rival/friend.

What if Goku fuses with Gohan? Would that be a possibly fusion twist that you would not be against seeing in the show?

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Will Fusion Lead To Universe 6’s Downfall? | Dragon Ball Super

by Jeremy Carden

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Considering the two female Saiyans from Universe 6 will merge using the Potara Earrings, could this possibly have a negative impact for Champa’s team?

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Even the two Namekians for Universe 6 might fuse as well because Gohan and Piccolo are giving them a run for their money.

In the video below, I go into my full thoughts on the subject.

 

Do you think that Vegeta and Goku will merge as well in this Tournament of Power?

There is no telling if the Grand Priest and the Omni-Kings will allow the fusion because it is merging technique with tools for the gods, but if Zeno thinks it is cool then it might be allowed…

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Will the power go to the fused female’s head? I mean they were memorized by Super Saiyan 3, and they might reduce their fusion time.

The next couple of episodes should answer these questions and more! The biggest one being whether or not this new fusion will count as one or two fighters for Team Universe 6! Remember that Champa’s plan for victory has more to do with the number of fighters left by the end of the tournament, but he only has four more left.

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Dragon Ball Super: What Is Champa Planning?

By Jeremy Carden

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Beerus’ brother from Universe 6 has shown himself to be a pretty interesting character. We have not seen too much from him in the anime, but we have gotten a glimpse of his character in the manga.

We already know the basics in terms of who he is and what he does. Champa is Beerus’ brother from the universe connected to his. He is also a God of Destruction, and has an attendant (Vados) who assists him in his role.

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He and his brother used to fight in the past, but their brawls usually resulted in galactic destruction (as seen in a flashback in the manga). Because of the destruction linked to their physical confrontations, we learn that they now have food competitions. Basically, they compare foods from Universe 6 and Universe 7 to see which one has the best dishes.

Considering that they are brothers, I can understand that there is a natural rivalry between the two just like normal siblings. However, Chama seems to be hiding something from Beerus…

This goes back to the manga because he and Vados are trying to navigate around Universe 7 without being detected by Beerus.

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When they are first seen in the manga, they see Beerus fighting against Goku on King Kai’s Planet. They use this opportunity to continue their search for the wish-granting orbs.

Later, they detect Whis and Beerus going to Earth (in the search of the Super Saiyan God), and Champa ventures to another part of the universe.

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Eventually, Old Kai and Kibito Kai are spotted spying on Champa and Vados. It was right after a planet was destroyed by the pair because it was not the one they were searching for.

The kais found out that they are looking for the Dragon Balls, and are approached by an irritated Champa. He demands to learn what they had overheard, but they denied hearing anything at all.

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Soon after, Champa destroyed one of the Frieza Force ships that was searching for the Dragon Balls.

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He and Vados decide to head back to their universe, but only after they find a souvenir for Beerus.

In anime, Whis and Beerus are heading towards Earth to witness the battle between the Super Saiyans and Golden Frieza. Whis notices someone else traveling a great speed, and it turns out to be his sister.

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Vados and Champa are face to face with Whis and Beerus. The two brothers stare each other down, and Champa orders Vados to take out Beerus. He says that the reason he does not want to fight is because he is too lazy. This mirrors what he said when he ordered Vados to destroy a planet because it was not one of the Super Dragon Balls.

Beerus demands to know what he is doing in his universe, but Champa says that it is nothing suspicious about it before departing. After that, Beerus and Whis continue on their journey to Earth. Champa and Vados go to another part of the universe to continue their search, and that is the last time that we will see them until the Champa Saga starts tonight!

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In both the anime and manga, Champa seems to be hiding something from Beerus. We eventually learn that he is searching for the Super Dragon Balls which are planet-sized orbs.

Originally, I thought that both Universe 6 and 7 each had a set of these Super Dragon Balls.

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However, it turns out that all 7 are scattered between both universes, and Champa already has 6 of them.

He eventually arises on Beerus’ planet where he meets Goku and Vegeta. After another one of their food challenges, the two brothers setup a tournament between universes. The winner will get the Earth of Universe 7 (because of its delicious food), and take home the 6 Super Dragon Balls that have already been collected.

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Everyone at this point who has been reading the manga knows what happens from this point forward. Both teams arrive at the tournament grounds, and the fight has already begun in Chapter 8 of the manga.

This is really where I need to stop because there is one huge unanswered question that still puzzles me…

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Why was Champa gathering the Super Dragon Balls to begin with?

Beerus was unaware of the Super Dragon Balls, but Champa seems to have been collecting them for quite some time. Even time in fact that leads me to believe that he has traveled to Universe 7 on multiple occasions undetected in order to collect them all.

I find it hard to believe that the only reason he wanted to gather them was to get his hands on Universe 7’s Earth for the food. There is no need to use the balls for that because the winner of the tournament gets Earth.

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Not to say that he looks evil simply because he is a “Fat Beerus.” Remember that the Good Buu was fat while the Evil Buu was skinny.

He just seems to be hiding something that he does not want his brother to find out about. He could want to use the orbs to wish for control over all 13 universes, or that he was the most powerful God of Destruction.

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Beerus confirmed in Battle of Gods that some of the universes out there bred beings more powerful than himself and Whis. Perhaps Champa does not want to be ranked in the lower tier of Gods of Destruction, and wants to achieve power through wishes rather than training.

He did say that he was lazy so it would not surprise me if he planned to wish his way to the top rather than actually earning.

At this point, I can only speculate so much about his true intentions, but I think it is safe to say that he is up to no good. Maybe there is another being from one of the other 11 universes that will arrive at the tournament to take the Super Dragon Balls for themselves.

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The possibilities are endless, and I cannot wait to see what Champa really does have up his sleeves.

What do you think of this theory? Do you think that Champa is up to no good?

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Dragon Ball Z: Is Super Saiyan 3 Goku More Powerful Than Ultimate Gohan?

By Jeremy Carden

There is a battle that has caused a lot of tension within the fan base of the Dragon Ball series. I have seen many blogs and videos about this particular subject. Fans have debated about Gogeta vs. Vegito, Kid Buu vs. Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed) and Goku vs. Superman.

However, the topic of this blog will focus on the ultimate battle between Goku and Gohan.

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While reading this blog, please remember that I will be discussing Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan (also called Mystic Gohan by some fans) from the Majin Buu Saga.

This blog will not include anything between the time of Kid Buu’s death and the ending of DBZ when Goku leaves with Uub.

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That means nothing about Super Saiyan God or Dragon Ball GT will be included in this blog.

Let’s get this battle started! As with most of my “Who would win?” blogs, I will start this one by expressing my thoughts right off the bat. I feel that in terms of power alone; Gohan is the winner.

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Does that mean he would win? Yes…and no. Just because Gohan is more powerful than Goku does not mean that he would win.

At this point, some readers are probably shaking their heads at my belief that Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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Before I go any further, I just want to say that this blog is based on my own personal opinion. If you feel that Goku is more powerful than Gohan then you are entitled to your opinion. From this point on in the blog, I will attempt to use facts from the manga AND anime in order to get my point across. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below after finishing this blog, and you can tell me if I have persuaded you that Gohan is more powerful.

Believe it or not, when it comes down to determining which warrior is more powerful; you have to examine which form of Majin Buu is more powerful. The 2 Buus that I am talking about are Super Buu and Kid Buu.

The reason that I picked out these forms of Buu is because they are the Buus that Goku and Gohan battled the hardest against.

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If you have ever read my very first DBZ blog about which form of Buu is the most powerful, then you know that I feel that Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed) is the strongest, and Kid Buu is far from #1.

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In any case, we know that Kid Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are more or less equals. It was mentioned that if Goku had started off the fight at 100%, and did not hold back so that Vegeta would have a chance to fight; he could have killed Kid Buu.

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He mentioned the same about his battle with Fat Buu, but in that case he was not holding back for Vegeta’s sake. In that fight, he was holding back in order for Gohan, Goten and Trunks to have a shot at fighting for the planet. However, unlike the battle with Kid Buu, it was clear that he was holding back (a lot) during his fight with Fat Buu. He did not battle to the point of exhausted as he did against Kid Buu.

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When talking about two fighters who were more or less equals, Super Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks seem to fit that category very nicely. Gotenks was playing around with Buu during their fight, and it was literally a back and forth conflict. Each fighter was able to take a blow, and dish one back out to their opponent! You could argue that Buu was holding back because he was waiting for Gohan to arrive, but it is clear he and Gotenks were on the same plateau of power.

It was Buu’s regeneration powers and endurance that kept the young Super Saiyan 3 from putting him down for the count. However, when Gotenks was about to kill Buu for good, his power ran out and his Fusion ended.

Alright, so we know that Goku and Gotenks had the power to completely annihilate the pink menace that they battled against. They just held back for different reasons; Goku for his respect of Vegeta’s pride, and Gotenks’ cocky nature.

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This leads us to Goku’s comment to Vegeta before they escaped from Super Buu’s head. He mentioned that neither of them could survive if Buu fought them after leaving his body. Fusion was the only way that he and Vegeta would stand a chance.

Goku was literally saying that he was NOT powerful enough to destroy Super Buu if they had to battle him!

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Remember that Ultimate Gohan mopped the floor with Super Buu. He did not even use ki attacks against the pink titan, he was using nothing but melee attacks to push Buu into a corner.

This leads to another point about how powerful Buu became after absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo. We have established that Gohan is more powerful than Super Buu, and this means he is clearly more powerful than Gotenks.

He took Buu apart without much effort, but Gotenks was literally kept on his toes by Buu’s power. So, after absorbing Gotenks, we can assume that Buu’s power pretty much doubled in power.

I think we can conclude that Buu’s absorption technique is a power-up that takes the person(s) absorbed, and adds their power to Buu’s.

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With that being said, “Buutenks” had a power that was over double what it was before. Keep in mind that Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks were pretty much even, and he took Piccolo’s power too (though the Namek’s absorption was more about adding his intelligence to Buu rather than his overall power).

In the anime, Gohan and Buu were on par with each other. It was not until Buu starting using “the Piccolo in him” to chip away at Gohan’s confidence, and that led to him being completely overpowered.

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Unlike the anime, the manga portrayal of Buutenks vs. Gohan was showing Buu’s power to be something that Gohan stood absolutely no chance against.

It appears that Gohan was indeed superior to Buu and Gotenks, but less than twice their power. I would say that he was probably somewhere between 1.2-1.5 times more powerful than Super Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Where does this leave Goku?

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Another blog that I wrote awhile back was concerning the subject of Super Gotenks’ power compared to Goku’s. In that blog, I talked about my thoughts on how even a Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks had power that was superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Why would I say that?

Remember that Goku originally declined killing the Fat Buu because he wanted the boys to save the world instead of relying on him (since he was dead, Goku did not feel it was his right to step in as a savior to the planet).

He taught the boys the Fusion Dance, and felt that it would be the ONLY way of defeating Buu. Trunks asked why he did not teach them Super Saiyan 3 because if he and Goten teamed up at that level then they would beat Buu for sure. However, Goku told them that Fusion was the ONLY way.

After seeing how sad they were, he showed them Super Saiyan 3 before leaving with Baba. In my opinion, I feel that Goku thought that Goten and Trunks fused as Super Saiyans would be enough to defeat Buu (without the need for a Super Saiyan 3 transformation). Goku knew that level 3 was something not meant to be used in the living world due to the rapid ki depletion that it causes for the user outside of other world.

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Considering that he had just fought Buu himself at Super Saiyan 3, I think that Goku knew for a fact that a Super Saiyan 1 Fusion would be enough to kill Buu. This means that it is safe to conclude that Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-Time Chamber) was in the same realm of power as Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

Let’s take things a step further in order to analyze just how powerful Gotenks was. After training in the Time Chamber for 30 minutes on the outside world before Super Buu lost his patience (which equals just about 7 and a half days inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber), Gotenks’ power was said to have increased dramatically.

I think that if there was a gap between pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyan Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku; that gap was closed after the children’s 7.5 days of training.

I dare say that Gotenks may have become even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. By how much was never determined, but for the sake of simplicity (without downplaying either of their power levels), let’s say that Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 Goku were even.

Going Super Saiyan 2 doubles the power of a Super Saiyan 1, and going Super Saiyan 3 multiples the power of a Super Saiyan 2 by four.

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Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (at minimum) is 8 times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (who is more or less on the same playing field as Super Buu), but not twice as powerful.

Overall, Goku is not as powerful as Gotenks and Gohan. However, his original goal of having the boys measure up to their destinies as the protectors of the planet was realized. His intention was making them even more powerful than he was in order to save the earth from Buu.

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This same goal was similar to Goku’s plans of having Gohan exceed his power to save the world from Cell.

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Not to mention that Piccolo’s goal during the Saiyan Saga was training Gohan to become more powerful than him as well!

In any case, I think I have spelled out why I feel that Ultimate Gohan’s power is clearly superior to his father’s even at Super Saiyan 3.

Considering that Gohan is more powerful than his dad, you are probably wondering whether or not Gohan would be named as the winner before the battle even began.

I say that despite being more powerful, Gohan would not easily win the battle. This is mainly due to Goku being the superior fighter.

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Looking back at the DBZ series, I feel that Gohan’s power and combat skills were at their peak during the Cell Games.

True, Old Kai unlocked ALL of his hidden powers, but that would not unlock his combat skills and fighting instincts.

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Vegeta mentioned that Gohan’s power was a lot higher as a child, and this was when he witnessed Gohan power up to show Kibito the Super Saiyan 2 level.

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While watching his son fight with Dabura, Goku even brings up the fact that Gohan’s fighting sense was lost during his 7 years of no training.

After the battle with Cell, Gohan pretty much neglected his training in favor of studying. The end result was that his 11-year-old persona was more powerful both in strength and in fighting abilities.

Compare this to Goku, he trained for 7 years straight against warriors from across space and time during his stay on the Grand Kai’s planet.

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Before he slacked off in his training, Gohan knew everything that his father had to teach him. Their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber allowed Gohan to pick up on his father’s technique and surpass his power.

If Ultimate Gohan fought against Super Saiyan 3 Goku, I’d say that Goku would be able to not only predict what Gohan would do next, but outsmart him as well during combat. Goku taught Gohan nearly everything that he knows about fighting.

Piccolo was the only other person to train Gohan. Krillin and Gohan did “mind training” on their trip to Namek, but we know that his father and “Big Green Uncle” were his primary instructors.

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Keep in mind that Goku spent 3 years training alongside Gohan and Piccolo. This means that he has seen everything that Gohan knows about fighting and enhanced his son’s skills in the Time Chamber.

Again, Gohan is more powerful, but Goku has been able to hold his own against more powerful opponents in the past.

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It has also been shown many times that if Goku is backed into a corner, he is capable of reaching incredible new levels of power.

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Of course, we know that Gohan does the same, and that goes to show he is indeed the son of Goku.

Aside from strength, Gohan has one huge advantage over Super Saiyan 3 Goku that has not yet been mentioned. Gohan’s power would not deplete as quickly as Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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Remember that Goku admitted to Vegeta that even though he can go Super Saiyan 3; he can only hold the form for a short amount of time.

For fans who say that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is more powerful than Ultimate Gohan, I ask you this one question: Could Goku defeat his son before his Super Saiyan 3 power depletes?

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With a well placed Warp Kamehameha, I think that he could deal some heavy damage. Either way, I think this would be a tough battle.

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Super Saiyan Goku was holding his own so against Ultimate Gohan…well it was Buu’s thought form of Ultimate Gohan. Not to mention it was a filler scene, but I wanted to mention this because I know someone would say something about it in the comment section.

Something to remember about this fight was that Goku was getting exhausted, but Gohan was a thought form meaning that he could not be damaged or weakened so their battle is not really something to be used as solid evidence for this subject.

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Ultimate Gohan’s power is his maximum potential brought out to the surface, and it does not deplete his ki supply like a Super Saiyan 3 transformation would. Goku even says that Gohan’s power was higher than it was ever was even when his son was a Super Saiyan.

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The one moment that we could have and should have seen these 2 fighting was right after Gohan powered up after Old Kai unlocked his potential.

Just as Goku showed Goten and Trunks how to go Super Saiyan 3 before going back to the land of the dead, I think he should have battled Gohan before his son returned to the land of the living.

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Would have been a great touch as to how Goku shows his love for his children in the best way that he knows how.

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Buutenks reverting back to Buuccolo was another moment in the anime and manga that differed. In the anime, Goku was at Super Saiyan 3, but was doing what he could just to keep up with Buu. Fans argue that he was stalling for Gohan to find the Potara Earring. In the manga, this “fight” never happened; Buutenks went to Buuccolo without fighting Goku.

However, for fans who think Goku was more powerful than Buutenks: why would Goku want or need to permanently fuse with Ultimate Gohan…if he had the power to do it solo?

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In the manga and anime, Goku states that Gohan could defeat Buuccolo all by himself. The way he says that does seem to imply that Goku was disappointed in Buu’s drastic drop in power. I mean Goku was in a tense situation because he was desperate to fuse with Gohan, but now he was in a position where fusion was not needed because Gohan could win alone.

Really it is all up to personal interpretation about how Goku said what he said about Gohan beating Buu. I will admit that it does seem like Goku is saying that he could take Buu himself, but really I just do not think that this is the case.

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One last piece of evidence that fans like to bring up is the fact that Goku’s Ki was sensed from the Sacred Land of the Kais from Earth.

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However, when Gohan unleashed his new power, Buu was the ONLY person in the lower realm (Earth) to take notice of his power.

I think that ki sensing somehow works in reverse when it comes to comparing the lower realm (land of the living) and the other world (land of the dead).

On Supreme Kai’s planet, it makes sense that they could sense an extremely high power level from earth. However, it also makes sense that an extremely high power from the Kai planet could not be sensed from earth.

Remember that in the anime, Goku mentioned that Kid Buu was using Instant Transmission. That was how he found other planets with high ki readings during his hunt for Goku and Vegeta.

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In the manga, it was mentioned that he was using the “Kai Kai” or Instantaneous Moment used by Kibito Kai. This is a teleporting technique that does not require a ki signature for the user to transport to. This explains how in the manga, Kid Buu regenerated from his Planet Burst move on earth, and then went instantly to Supreme Kai’s planet to fight the Saiyans.

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Compared to the anime, Kid Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta when they raised their power levels to draw Buu to their location. He was on Grand Kai’s planet during that moment, and it made sense that he could track their powers since he was in the other world just as they were.

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What does this have to do with Buu sensing Gohan’s power from earth? Well Super Buu is an interesting being because he detected Gohan’s power, but Piccolo nor the boys (Goten and Trunks) were able to sense it. Perhaps it is because he is a powerful being that he could track a power that a Namek could not? Either way, it could be because Gohan was in the middle of a magical ceremony that his power was more “contained” when he unleashed it when compared to a Super Saiyan transformation.

I mean Gohan was on the verge of damaging the Kai planet by powering up, and Goku was on the verge of ripping apart the earth. The main difference was that Goku was not using Super Saiyan 3 for the first time, and he was “putting on a show” in order to stall for Trunks to find the Dragon Radar.

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We later saw that he could go Super Saiyan 3 in an instant as he did against Buutenks.

Gohan was doing the “Super Saiyan thing” as Old Kai put it in order to unleash his true power. So, I can see why the lower realm would have a difficult time tracking a high ki signature from the land of the dead.

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How else can you explain no one on earth sensing Goku’s power when he first unlocked Super Saiyan 3 during his time on Grand Kai’s planet?

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In the end, I think that Gohan has the power to win, but Goku has the skill to stay alive until he finds a weakness in Gohan’s defenses in order to land some powerful hits.

What do you think about this? Do you feel that Gohan’s power is superior, or does Super Saiyan 3 Goku have the power to surpass his son?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?

Dragon Ball Z Battle of the Fusions: Gogeta vs. Vegito!!

By Jeremy Carden

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Let’s see if we can put the final nail in the coffin by putting an age-old debate to rest: Who is more powerful Gogeta or Vegito?

To fully evaluate this topic I’ll be looking at the manga, anime, the movie Fusion Reborn and yes even Dragon Ball GT…

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In order to make sure I do everything I can to leave no stone unturned I will be looking at the series fans stick their noses up at due to it “not being canon.” However, Fusion Reborn is not canon either meaning that if I ignored it then there would be no debate here. I couldn’t do a solid evaluation without using the movie. Before reading any further, you need to let go of any convictions you have against non-canon material because without it this blog would not be happening.

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The main focus of this “battle” will be Super Saiyan 1 Gogeta and Vegito.

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I will be looking at base Vegito and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. Even though I wasn’t going to do it from the start, I’ll be taking a glimpse at the two in their Super Saiyan 3 forms just to spice things up. Just keep in mind that in the end, I’ll be deciding on who I think would win based on their Super Saiyan forms.

Power is one thing, but I think the main factor in deciding which Saiyan truly is superior can only be done by taking a look at both the Fusion Dance and Potara Earrings.

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Potara Earrings

This method of fusion was created by the Kais through the use of their special Potara Earrings. In order for two beings to fuse, the only thing that needs to be done is for one being to have an earring on their right ear and the other being to have an earring on their left ear…then there you have it instant fusion!

Of course this method of merging does come with its negative side effects…

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  1. The fusion is PERMANENT (unless you go inside of Buu’s stomach for his digestive enzymes to separate the fusion) and even if the fused being removes their earrings it will not result in a split of the two beings…they are stuck forever!
  2. If one or both of the individuals merging are in a powered up form it may result in the fused being having a shortened life span. As Old Kai pointed out to Goku when he thought going Super Saiyan prior to using the earrings would be the best way to get the maximum potential out of the fusion, the Kai said that the strain on the fused body would shorten his life

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Fusion Dance

This method of fusion was something that Goku learned from the Metamorans during his time in Other World. Using this type of fusion results in a new being much stronger than the two individuals alone and it only lasts for 30 minutes. Overall, this method of fusion is much more complex than the Potara method of uniting fighters because it demands much more from each individual.

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  1. Both warriors must be near equal in terms of height
  2. Both warriors must have equal power levels
  3. Both warriors much execute the dance (which Goku compared to traditional water ballet and fighting stance/pose) perfectly
  4. According to Piccolo, the two individuals must breathe in the same rhythm illustrating that both beings must be one in terms of thought, mind, power, height and pretty much everything for the dance to be successful

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So now that both methods of fusion have been evaluated, it is time to tackle the biggest form of controversy: Old Kai saying that Potara is BETTER than the Metamorans’ Fusion Dance.

It can be interpreted in one of two ways:

  1. Old Kai was saying that Potara creates a more powerful being than one fused using the dance
  2. Old Kai was pointing out that in terms of drawbacks, Potara wins over the Fusion Dance

Personally, I feel that #2 is the one that relates to what he was saying. Just by comparing the 2 Fusion methods it is easy to see how Potara fusion is better:

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  1. If the Fusion Dance is performed incorrectly even slightly, the end result is a failed fusion that is either old/sickly looking or VERY overweight
  2. The Fusion Dance only lasts for 30 minutes (less than 30 minutes the more powerful the fused being is)
  3. After the fused being splits due to time running out, they cannot be joined together again until a full hour has passed. This is a very bad handicap especially if the battle takes longer than half an hour
  4.  It takes time for the users to sync their powers and make sure that their poses are done correctly unlike the Potara fusion which simply requires the users to place the earrings on opposing ears

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After Old Kai gave his life to restore Goku’s, the Saiyan was excited to go back to earth to merge with Gohan to stop Majin Buu. Old Kai asks how he plans on defeating the Majin and if he really expected him to just wait around for Goku and Gohan to get to equal power and execute the dance in order to perform the technique.

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Overall, I think of the Potara Fusion as a Hot Pocket and the Fusion Dance as a pizza from Domino’s. While one method of fusion can be completed almost instantly (Hot Pocket taking a couple of minutes to be done) and the other might take a while for results to be delivered (Pizza delivery sometimes takes 30+ minutes) but it is worth the wait. Just keep in mind that convenience is not always the best option.

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Now there is another thing that Old Kai mentioned that fans have taken to heart in terms of saying that Vegito is more powerful than Gogeta: The Rivalry Boost

While watching the battle between Super Vegito and Super Buu, Kibito Kai was stunned at how easily the Saiyan was ripping Buu to shreds. Old Kai said that it is not surprising due to Goku and Vegeta being two of the most powerful fighters in this world (Other World) and the next (most likely referring to the physical realm of the universe below the heavens). He then goes on to say that due to them being rivals, it actually made the fusion MORE complete!

Basically, fans say that because Old Kai said Vegito is “more complete” it means that not only is he more “fused” than other Potara beings but he is more powerful than the average Potara being as well.

Alright, I will say that it does make sense and possibly means that Vegito is more powerful than “normal” when compared to other fused beings. However, I do not think that the “rivalry boost” only applies to the Potara fusion.

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Here is one thing that I noticed about the Potara fusion; it combines the clothing of the fused beings.

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This is not the case for the Fusion Dance which dresses the fused being in what is apparently traditional clothing worn by the Metamorans.

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In the case of Kibito Kai, it seems that the Supreme Kai (Shin) is the dominant persona. This is speculated by his skin color, voice and facial appearance. To me this illustrates the fact that Kibito was the bodyguard of his master Shin and when fused he is “present” in physical stature while the dominant personality is Shin.

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Let’s compare this to Vegito; the Saiyan has not only the combined clothing of Goku and Vegeta but along with that are their voices being blended and both personalities being shown in the way that they act. This could further demonstrate that their rivalry did indeed make their fusion more complete than Kibito and Shin where there was a hierarchy. Kibito served Shin while Goku and Vegeta (are from different parts of the Saiyan hierarchy due to their Saiyan blood) had a bond that kept them in competition with each other with neither of them “serving the other.”

Now despite the Fusion Dance being a different method of fusion, I feel it is important to determine whether or not the rivalry boost is exclusive only to the Potara fusion. If you ask me, I don’t think that it is…

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Looking at Gotenks, we have Goten and Trunks who are best friends and almost like brothers. Their bond of friendship is arguably as strong as the rivalry between their fathers! When fused, their voices (like Vegito’s) are blended together and you can hear both Goten AND Trunks while Gotenks is talking.

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The same can be said about Gogeta because after fusing you can hear Goku AND Vegeta’s voice when he is talking. This could once again demonstrate that the bond between the individuals prior to fusing might actually produce a stronger than average being after they join together.

So, there could be a “Friend Boost” just like a “Rivalry Boost” if you want to look at it that way. However, this is all left up to perspective and personal opinion. I really cannot see how Goku and Vegeta can get a “Rivalry Boost” in one fusion, but not in the other.

Now we get to the power of Goku and Vegeta prior to fusing to become both Gogeta AND Vegito. One takes place in the Fusion Saga while the other occurs in the movie Fusion Reborn.

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Despite not being in the official timeline of the series, Fusion Reborn had to have taken place sometime after Goku’s one day in the living world and after the revival of Majin Buu. This is confirmed when Goku tells Janemba that Majin Buu is the only other person to push him to use Super Saiyan 3 in a battle before. Not only that, the fact that the boys used the Fusion Dance to become Gotenks shows that Goku did have time to teach them (or at least show them and Piccolo took it from there) before returning to Other World.

We do know that the battle between Majin Vegeta and Super Saiyan 2 Goku did take place because Vegeta was in Hell just like in the main series after using the Final Explosion to kill Buu but it failed.

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In the series and manga, it is confirmed that Vegeta and Goku were equal in power at the Super Saiyan 2 level. Goku once again proves to be the superior Saiyan by increasing his power 4 times over with the Super Saiyan 3 form. In any case, Fusion Reborn shows that even without Super Saiyan 3…Goku was more powerful than Vegeta.

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After being sent to Hell, Vegeta was a bodiless soul doomed to wander for eternity in Hell with no memory of his former self. Goku on the other hand was on Grand Kai’s Planet training and getting stronger. This once again placed him above Vegeta in terms of power. When Janemba’s power caused a rift in dimensions breaking the boundaries between the living and the dead, Vegeta “awoke” to find himself in his body.

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In the Fusion Saga, Goku gets his life back when Old Kai sacrifices himself to bring Goku back to life. King Yemma sends Baba to return Vegeta (still dead but with his body) back to Earth to fight Super Buu. Goku and Vegeta are both still even (aside from Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 form) unlike their Fusion Reborn counterparts.

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One unanswered fact about Fusion is how the fused being gets their power. Some fans figure that the Fusion Dance results in a being with the powers of the two individuals added together while the Potara Earrings allows a multiplication of the two beings power (not to mention the “Rivalry Boost”). Honestly, I cannot give an answer because even I cannot come up with a solid theory on this. Something that most people speculate is that the Fusion Dance is a bit more complicated in terms of power because if both individuals aren’t of equal power that means one of them has to lower their power to reach the equal stats of their “dance partner.”

Trunks had to lower his power to match Goten’s so when the two fuse to become Gotenks, what happened to the “leftover” power that Trunks concealed to equal Goten’s? It is just another one of those things that fans are left to debate about.

30 minutes really isn't that long...

30 minutes really isn’t that long…

Another factor that needs to be explored is time. Considering that one fusion is permanent while the other is temporary can play a huge element in the outcome of this battle.

In terms of the Fusion Dance, the more powerful the fused being is after using the dance it appears that the 30 minute time limit is decreased.

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Gotenks can only hold the Super Saiyan 3 form for 5 minutes before he either reverts back to his base form or the fusion splits him back into Goten and Trunks. It all depends on how much Ki he exhausts and the condition of his body (if he is damaged or worn out).

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Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was so immensely powerful that he was only able to exist for 10 minutes before he split back into Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta!

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The Potara Fusion does not have this handicap because even if let’s say Super Saiyan 3 Vegito runs out of Ki to sustain the Super Saiyan 3 form, he would go back to base Vegito not Goku and Vegeta again.

If 30 minutes isn’t long then how can 10 minutes or less be enough time for Gogeta to wipe the floor with Vegito?

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Something else that needs to be taken into account is the body of the user of let’s say Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks is only a boy while Goku is a man well a warrior who is more equipped to handle the power. Vegito is worlds stronger than Gotenks and Goku in terms of power, endurance, etc. If he were to use Super Saiyan 3 then I believe he’d handle it better than Gotenks and Goku.

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Gogeta would be able to do the same BUT I feel that if he did use the form it would not do him much good because after a few minutes I think he would either revert to base form or the fusion would split. If he were to use Super Saiyan 3, he’d have to get the job done ASAP.

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Alright, so we’ve covered Fusion methods/time/power of Goku & Vegeta so now it is time to get down to what you all have been waiting for: Gogeta vs. Vegito!!!

The first thing that comes to mind when trying to compare these 2 is by looking at the threats that they had to face. I mean what was the reason for their existence in the first place?

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Gogeta: Goku and Vegeta were no match for the dimension-busting Super Janemba. After fusing into Gogeta, the sword-wielding villain was destroyed in a matter of seconds by the Super Saiyan!

Now you have to keep in mind that this was a movie and it could not be stretched out over the course of several episodes like in the main series. That could be one reason why Gogeta wasn’t shown displaying various emotions or being cocky like other fusions; Gotenks, Vegito or even Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta.

It could be because Gogeta KNEW the dangers of allowing Janemba to exist. If Janemba continued then the barriers between all dimensions and reality were doomed to fall apart.

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Vegito: Super Buu (Buuhan) was far more powerful than the 2 Saiyans and in order to stand a chance they were forced to fuse.

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Despite being anime-only, base form Vegito seemed capable of destroying Buu prior to becoming a Super Saiyan. For what it is worth, Old Kai did say that going Super Saiyan after fusing would not be necessary because the fusion alone would allow enough power to finish the job. You could argue that his statement only applied to Super Buu when Gotenks was his main power source.

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In another anime-only scene, Buuhan is literally on the verge of ripping through multiple dimensional walls at once.

This was one of the few if only times that Vegito is actually seen TRYING against the Majin. The Super Saiyan powered up to bust through Buu’s bubble and delivers an uppercut to knock him senseless.

Both Super Saiyans easily picked their foes apart with little to no effort and because of this we never saw the full extent of Gogeta or Vegito’s actual power.

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Something else to keep in mind is that Vegito purposefully held back a lot of his power to vex Buu enough to the point where the beast had no other option but to absorb him.

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This could possibly demonstrate the fact that the people fusing can actually have control. Goku told Vegeta that Bulma and the others were trapped inside of Buu and they can’t even die. Of course we know better because those “eaten” by Buu were killed, but everyone he absorbed was inside of Buu. I mean Goku didn’t really know that so I can’t fault him for being incorrect when he made that statement to Vegeta. I don’t think he’d lie like that JUST to have a psychological impact on Vegeta making him want to fuse with him.

Learning this shocked Vegeta and it made him want to fuse and with that being said it makes sense that Goku and Vegeta concocted the plan to be absorbed from the beginning.

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Before fusing into Gogeta, both Saiyans knew the threat Janemba presented to ALL reality and that could explain why he didn’t fool around and quickly killed the beast.

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Now I cannot really say what the case was for Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. I mean to be fair, I’m guessing that Gogeta was under the impression that he did have a full 30 minutes. He had no clue that he only had 10 minutes before the fusion ended. The power must have gone to his head and knowing he could defeat his opponent was what made him toy around.

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Even after fusing, Vegeta scolded Goku saying that it was “him” who wanted to play pranks and toy around instead of finshing the battle right away. That might explain the pointlessness of the Bluff Kamehameha that just covered Omega Shenron in confetti.

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Goku then retorts that it wasn’t “him” that was just the way he and Vegeta act when “they are together.” That actually makes sense when comparing him to Vegito and how he acted when facing Buu by playing with him for the whole battle. One could argue that Gogeta was waiting long enough for Omega to use an attack negative enough for him to reverse the power and lift the negative energy engulfing the earth before killing him. However it was shown from the defeat of the other dragons that if they are killed and the Dragonballs are brought back to normal free of cracks then the negative power in that area of the globe would be removed.

I suppose it is the urgency of fusion that might determine how they act after fusing. Who knew that psychology would play a role in determining who is stronger just as much as power plays a part in all of this?

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Another argument going on between fans is which opponent was more powerful: Super Janemba or Super Buu (Gohan absorbed)?

Personally, I feel that Super Janemba is around the same level of power as Super Buu (prior to absorbing the Z-Fighters). It is true that he is the physically embodiment of the evil Ki that resides from the beings in Hell which includes everyone like Cell and Frieza. However, I feel that he is not on par with the power of Buuhan. I do feel that his abilities will allow him to hold his own but still I don’t think that it would be enough.

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Goku was dominating Janemba in their hand to hand combat, but it wasn’t until he started warping reality did he beat the Saiyan down.

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While inside Buu’s head, Goku tells Vegeta that neither of them could defeat the Majin while in their individual bodies (maximum of SS3 for Goku and SS2 for Vegeta) and fusing was their only option to win.

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Inside the mountain made of needles, Goku says the same thing about how they’d both be slaughtered if they went out there to face Janemba again. This was pretty much not far at all from the truth given the fact that Janemba took out SS2 Vegeta in seconds and nearly killed SS3 Goku before that.

Notice that in both cases the situation is very similar with both Goku and Vegeta getting caught in a tight situation before the suggestion of fusion comes about. It is Super Janemba and Super Buu rather than Super Janemba and Buuhan!

Not counting the blows base Vegito took from Buuhan (without showing any damage at all), let’s take a look at a couple of punches that might add some light on this situation.

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Janemba powers up in a rage to strike Gogeta right in the skull and the Saiyan does not flinch! Buuhan takes a deep breath to calm down and teleports right in front of Vegito who reacts with quick reflexes to block the punch! Gogeta saw the hit coming and Vegito was caught by surprise so I can’t really tell how to interpret this. Does this mean Janemba was so weak that Gogeta didn’t have to block and Buuhan was so powerful that his hit HAD to be blocked? Buu unleashed a barrage of punches that Vegito blocked in that one position before he teleported away and dodged Buu with impressive speed. In any case, I still say that Buu is more powerful but Janemba has the techniques to keep up with Buu. Unlike Buu, Janemba can break through dimensions at will but Buu needs to be deeply enraged in order to do so.

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Overall, I feel that in terms of power Gogeta is stronger but not by a huge amount of power. The real question is: Would Gogeta be able to defeat Vegito before the Fusion Time ran out? I don’t think that Vegito wouldn’t be able to hold his own long enough to survive.

You have to keep in mind that these 2 practically are capable of the same abilities. I do know that each one of them has exclusive moves in their fusion.

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Gogeta has the Stardust Breaker and Big Bang Kamehameha

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Vegito has the Beam Sword Slash and Final Kamehameha

Both are extremely fast and can use the Instant Transmission which would make it difficult for one to land a hit on the other.

Not to mention Gogeta and Vegito have the combination of the never say die attitude, brutal and tactical fighting style of Vegeta along with the creativity and excitement of Goku. As Vegeta said in GT, Goku takes huge risks with his Ki during combat and it pays off for the most part. Goku even said multiple times that the more powerful his opponent, the more excited he becomes allowing him to fight at his maximum and brings out the best in him.

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I think if Vegito and Gogeta actually did meet face to face it would be interesting. They would finally be fighting an opponent practically as powerful as themselves. It would not be a battle where they could simply knock around their opponent as they did with Janemba and Buuhan.

Vegito would probably mock Gogeta for being formed from a “ridiculous looking dance” while Gogeta would poke fun at Vegito’s earrings.

I could see the “Goku” in them getting pumped meeting someone they can go full-force against. While the Vegeta in them would scoff at the mere thought of anyone being close to him in power.

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The battle would most likely start with both of them sizing up the other just to get a feel of the other’s power.

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Keep in mind that Gogeta’s time limit is on the line here. He’d probably have to be like Goku fighting Majin Vegeta saying that time is of the essence so let’s just skip the warm-up and get right to it!

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Now considering that I think Gogeta is just a tad bit more powerful than Vegito that might possibly mean he is faster. Remember what Vegeta told Cui about how a higher power level also means increased speed. With that being said, Gogeta would be faster than his Potara Counterpart.

So the bout between the Super Saiyan fusions might actually wind up with Vegito taking the fall.

Super Saiyan 3

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Depending on how you look at it, the battle between these 2 at Super Saiyan 3 could go 1 of 2 ways:

  1. Gogeta going Super Saiyan 3 means he would not be able to stay fused for a full 30 minutes and he might defuse or revert to base form before defeating Vegito
  2. The fact that Gogeta is dead means his body could handle Super Saiyan 3 better than the “living” Vegito.

Well considering that Vegito is “half dead” since Vegeta was dead when he fused with Goku might mean Vegito could handle Super Saiyan 3 50% better than Goku or Gotenks…and yeah that makes things a lot more complicated than it should be!

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Super Gogeta is 100% dead and as Goku told Piccolo and Vegeta, Super Saiyan 3 was easier to maintain in a dead body than in a living one due to the energy consumption. He says that in Other World SS3 was well easy…

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Even if Gogeta raises his power to the maximum, I think that his energy supply would outlast Super Saiyan 3 Vegito even if it results in his fusion time being decreased due to raising his power too high.

So the bout between the Super Saiyan 3s once again comes down to whether or not Vegito could hold out just long enough for Gogeta’s power or fusion time to run out.

Super Saiyan 4

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Considering we don’t see Vegito as a Super Saiyan 4, it would not really be fair or even a point to doing this battle. All we can assume is that Vegito has to only hold on for 10 minutes before Gogeta’s fusion splits. If he can do that then he could win by a “technical knockout.”

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Now the same applies for base and Super Saiyan 2 form because we don’t see base form Gogeta or either of them at Super Saiyan 2.

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And no I don’t think Veku should play a role in this evaluation just because well…he was a weakling. He was hilarious as I don’t know what, but still not necessary for this blog. Unless of course Goku and Vegeta fused incorrectly and Vegito could just kill him with a nasty look.

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So there you have it, I believe that in an all-out battle to the finish the winner would be Super Gogeta. Now I’m not saying it is impossible for Vegito to win because the main thing would be him being able to last long enough until Gogeta’s power or fusion time ran out.

What do you think who is the superior fusion?

If you liked what you just read and want to see even more Dragonball blogs and theories be sure to follow my blog! Also I’m on Twitter @jccarden and I have a DBZ Facebook Page called Vegeta Is The Best.

Dragonball Z: How Strong Is Piccolo?

by Jeremy Carden

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Piccolo is one of the underdog heroes of the Dragonball franchise. Like many of the characters on the show, the Namekian was overshadowed greatly in power by the Super Saiyans. It is a real shame because before Vegeta came into the picture he was Goku’s archenemy turned rival turned friend.

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It is highly debated just how strong the Namek is towards the end of the Dragonball Z series especially when we are introduced to the Supreme Kai.

After the Frieza Saga, the appearance of power levels or official power readings for characters is pretty much nonexistent in the series. So don’t expect me to list off power levels that read in the 100 millions or anything like that (except for the ones in the Frieza Saga that ARE official).

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What I will do is estimate Piccolo’s power around the time of the final battle with Frieza on Namek just so we have a starting point.

Frieza’s transformation into his second form marks the first time in the series where fans (and the Z-Fighters) were introduced to a character that had a power level over 1,000,000!

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It seemed clear that Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan would be no match whatsoever for the murderous tyrant. After being wished back to life and arriving on Namek, Piccolo fused with one of the last surviving Nameks (aside from Dende) in order to combat the evil of Frieza. The fusion with Nail sent Piccolo’s power through the roof and he was able to fight evenly with Frieza in his 2nd form.

When Frieza began to take the fight seriously, he was able to beat Piccolo into the dirt. It wasn’t until he removed his weighted clothing that Piccolo was able to dominate the tyrant. After Frieza transformed into his 3rd form, Piccolo was completely outclassed in both power AND speed.

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Overall, we can conclude that Piccolo (after fusing with Nail) was well over 1 million. He was able to go toe to toe with Frieza even with his weights on. When he took them off his power and speed went up. If I had to make an assumption, I’d say that without his weights and at his maximum power level…I’d clock Piccolo around 1,400,000.

As a side note, Goku’s base power after healing from the battle with Ginyu was 3 million which was of course above Piccolo. Just keep that in mind when I get to the Trunks Saga.

Now there was a 1 ½ year gap between the time of Namek’s explosion and Goku’s eventual arrival back on Earth from the Planet Yardrat.

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Something else that I’ll mention despite being filler is the Garlic Jr. Saga. Before Garlic Jr. releases the Black Water Mist on the Earth, we see Piccolo in some mountains doing some training so we know what he wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing until Goku came back.

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The threat of Garlic Jr. was soon silenced, but then came the return of Frieza who came to Earth with his father. Despite his training after the battle on Namek, it was clear that Piccolo was no match for the evil space tyrant.

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Trunks arrives and defeats Frieza and his father but then delivers a warning for the Z-Fighters (mainly Goku) about how 2 Androids will arrive to kill them all.

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From there it is non-stop training for the Z-Team…except for when Goku and Piccolo go to earn their driver’s license…

In any case, it was Goku training with Piccolo and Gohan to prepare for the upcoming threat!

3 years pass and the Z-Fighters square off against the Androids that Trunks warned them about (or so they thought)!

Super Saiyan Goku started off knocking #19 around like he was nothing until his heart virus weakened him. Enter Vegeta, who swooped in with his new Super Saiyan powers to finish the fight and then it turned into a chase through the mountains to follow Android #20.

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Piccolo was caught off guard by the old Android and lost some Ki. After receiving a Senzu Bean from Gohan, Piccolo was smacking around #20 like he was nothing.

Krillin who was amazed by this sight was quick to comment that Piccolo might actually be as strong as a Super Saiyan causing Vegeta to give a smug look and say “Right…”

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Regardless of his power, when #18 and #17 were activated by Dr. Gero…Piccolo was defeated as easily as Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta.

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Before we get to his fusion with his “other half” Kami, I think it is important to go back and reevaluate just how powerful Piccolo was after his 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the Android threat.

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Some fans believe Piccolo to be around the power of Super Saiyan Goku on Namek (which was 150 million) while other fans don’t believe that he could raise his power level that significantly without doing a Fusion with another Namek.

Personally, I don’t think it would be THAT unbelievable. Let me break it down:

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When they first began their training, we saw Goku (base form) fighting evenly with Piccolo. It was a pretty impressive sparring match and Gohan was stunned by their battle. After they disappeared, Gohan sensed them and began fighting as well.

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Keep in mind that Goku’s base power on Namek was 3 million which was above Piccolo who I wagered was around 1,400,000. Throw in a Zenkai boost after recovering from his battle with Frieza and the time he spent training on Yardrat and Goku’s power level was higher than 3 million.

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Another topic fans debate over is whether or not Goku actually trained AS a Super Saiyan while preparing for the Android threat. In retrospect, he wouldn’t really have to train as a Super Saiyan. He told Trunks that while on Yardrat, he was learned how to transform at will rather than having to be overcome by anger and rage to go Super Saiyan. Of course, he wouldn’t have full control over the form until after his time with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

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His training partners were a Namek that he was stronger than in base form and his Saiyan/Human offspring that wasn’t as powerful as he was. If Goku turned Super Saiyan boosting his power by 50, he’d completely dominate them with no effort whatsoever.

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I think that against Gohan, Goku remained in base form and trained him along with Piccolo. On the days when Chi-Chi made Gohan study rather than train (remember the deal she made with Goku was to allow Gohan to train BUT still study instead of 3 nonstop years of roughhousing), I feel that Goku and Piccolo were able to do SERIOUS training with no holding back.

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Kind of like how Goten and Gohan were able to do serious Super Saiyan combat training when Gohan wasn’t holding back his powers in order to teach Videl how to fly. I think the same applied to Goku and Piccolo’s training.

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We all know that these two do not hold back in their training and knowing Piccolo I doubt he wanted to fight or train with Goku unless he was at his best! Not to mention if Piccolo needed to work on a weakness or strength he could use his Multi-Form technique to “train himself.”

So, I honestly believe that at some points in their training Goku would go Super Saiyan so Piccolo could spar with a stronger opponent to test and increase the limits of his own powers. I mean the best way to get stronger is to train with someone stronger than you are.

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Going back to Krillin’s statement about Piccolo possibly being as powerful as a Super Saiyan, I think there might be some truth behind that. He was easily able to dominate #20 just like Super Saiyan Vegeta was able to beat down #19. It was said numerous times by #20 that he was FAR superior to the Android 19 model so there is even more proof behind that statement.

Of course, I don’t think that Piccolo could defeat Super Saiyan Vegeta or Goku. I will say that he might be able to give Super Saiyan Trunks a run for his money. Piccolo has far more training than the Saiyan from the future and he doesn’t rely on a weapon for combat. He is smarter than Trunks and I believe if it came down to those two battling it out, I believe Piccolo would win it.

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The way Trunks spoke about the Androids, it was as if he was literally saying that Frieza would be no match for them. You can see the truth in his statement because he talked about how the Androids of his time hunted him down for fun. Trunks had just killed Frieza AND King Cold with ease. It turns out that he was referring to #17 and #18, but the Z-Fighters didn’t know that. I don’t think that Piccolo would be willing to fight these new foes if he wasn’t at least as powerful as Frieza was back on Namek. His maximum power at 100% was 120 million when he fought Super Saiyan Goku.

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One last piece of evidence of Piccolo’s power increase comes from looking at Goku and Gohan’s Time Chamber training. Gohan literally begged his father to not hold back during training because if he did then he would never become a Super Saiyan. When Goku agreed to fight at his maximum Gohan did go Super Saiyan and eventually went from not being able to keep up with Goku even in base form to surpassing him!

I think the same happened when Goku trained with Piccolo (except for Piccolo surpassing Goku) and this helped Piccolo get much more powerful as a result.

With that in mind, I think that Piccolo would be able to defeat the space tyrant after his 3 years of training.

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Alright, now that we have that out of the way it is time to get to the “Nameless Namek!” With the Androids on their way to kill Goku after easily defeating the Z-Fighters, Piccolo journeyed to Kami’s Lookout to fuse with Kami.

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The Guardian of the Earth eventually caved in and allowed Piccolo to merge with him. Piccolo (now known as Kamiccolo, the Original Namek or the Nameless Namek) met the new threat the Kami felt taking shape over the past 3 years down on Earth (without telling anyone…): Cell!

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It was an impressive battle, but even though it seemed like Cell was winning it turned out to be a false front; Kamiccolo was playing possum to learn who and what Cell was along with his intentions!

This was similar to Vegeta willingly allowing #19 to absorb his Ki to confirm that the Androids absorbed their victim’s energy through the palms on their hands!

Kamiccolo said that he’d easily destroy the creature now that he had received the information needed and he was going to until Cell used the Solar Flare to escape.

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On the hunt for this new enemy, Piccolo eventually went toe to toe with Android 17! It was a neck and neck battle where we saw the true power of his fusion with Kami.

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Piccolo went from being knocked out by a punch to the gut from #17 to delivering blow after blow to the Android! Regardless it was clear that power wise these two were dead even, but the only difference was that 17’s energy level and stamina never decreased. The only way to truly win would be for Piccolo to destroy his robotic opponent.

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Actually, Piccolo was going to destroy #17 but thanks to plot…I mean a barrier…the Hellzone Grenade wasn’t able to finish the job.

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When Cell reappeared to absorb the Androids it was clear his power now made Piccolo’s seem insignificant. It came from absorbing countless human beings and increasing his power to a level here he could easily take down anything in his way (except #16).

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Even Piccolo’s most powerful attack (Light Grenade) did nothing against Cell!

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After breaking his neck and blasting away most of his stomach, Cell tossed the Namek into the ocean.

Goku saved Piccolo and Tien by taking them back to the Lookout to recover with some Senzu Beans. After Super Vegeta (Ascended Super Saiyan) botched up the battle with Cell by allowing him to absorb #18, Piccolo thought it best to take matters into his own hands and train inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber himself!

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When he reemerged, his power was enough to stun Future Trunks and made Goku remark about how impressive the boost in his power increase was. Of course, Goku pointed out that even though Piccolo was a lot more powerful than before he was still no match for Perfect Cell.

The last time we see Piccolo in a real battle was when he fought the Cell Jrs. alongside the other Z-Fighters.

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Once again we enter into debatable territory regarding how well Piccolo was holding his own against Cell’s “children.” If you ask me I think it was clear that Piccolo was one of the “leading forces” in that battle aside from the Ascended Super Saiyans Trunks and Vegeta who were having their own trouble with ONE Cell Jr. apiece!

Cell told Gohan that aside from Trunks and Vegeta no one could hold up against his children, which was false because Piccolo was doing just as well as the Super Saiyans!

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Krillin, Yamcha and Tien were obviously outclassed while Goku was still heavily damaged and weak from his battle with Perfect Cell. Tien and Yamcha had to protect him, Krillin was the one that was easily defeated and Piccolo was the “floater” pretty much helping out when needed knocking out many of the Cell Jrs. (who would annoyingly get back up over and over again).

Just a quick comment, the Cell Jrs. were holding back at first because their job was to TORMENT not KILL the Z-Fighters that was why Tien and Yamcha were able to kick a few of them around to protect Goku but were eventually knocked out for good.

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Sadly Krillin was pretty much useless and the Cell Jrs. enjoyed torturing him more than the others.

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Cell eventually told them to start killing the heroes in order to finally fuel Gohan’s rage enough to the point where his hidden powers would rise to the surface. That was when they started going for blood and all of the Z-Fighters (including Piccolo) were finally down until Gohan went Super Saiyan 2.

Now you are probably wondering how Piccolo was able to hold his own despite not being a Super Saiyan. Once again it is time to break things down;

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I believe that after his Time Chamber training, Piccolo was at least around the power of Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks and Vegeta after their first time going in the chamber.

As I mentioned before, we don’t know the power levels of the characters after their battle with Frieza. So for this example, I’ll be using just small numbers and maybe fractions to prove my point.

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Kamiccolo was more powerful than Imperfect Cell (before absorbing 1,000s of humans), even with #17 and stronger than the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. I don’t think that Piccolo was twice the power of a Super Saiyan though.

When Vegeta came out of the Time Chamber, Goku said that he’d have to AT LEAST triple his power to stand a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell which caused Vegeta to laugh. This implies that he at least tripled his power or went above even that.

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Theoretically I think that he tripled the power of his base and Super Saiyan form. However, he took it a step further by achieving the Ascended Super Saiyan form.

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With that being said here is what I think; I’d put Kamiccolo as a 5 while the pre-Time Chamber Super Saiyans would be a 3. During his time training, I feel that Vegeta was not only able to catch up to Kamicclo and close the gap in their power but he took it a step further by going Ascended Super Saiyan!

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Something else that might help my claim is how Vegeta reacted to Piccolo when he came out of the chamber. While Trunks was stunned at his power increase, Vegeta insulted the Namek saying that he hadn’t changed at all and that all he was doing was wasting time while the real warriors had to wait for him until he came out. On that note, Vegeta smirked as he closed the door behind him saying that Goku had better watch out because he was once again going to claim his spot as the best in the universe.

Now the one thing in this scene that really caught my attention was how Piccolo reacted to Vegeta’s statement; he didn’t say ONE word. This was a huge contrast to the Piccolo we’ve seen in the past who was quick to fly off at an insult especially from Vegeta.

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If you ask me, I feel that the year spent in the Time Chamber was more than just a power-up for Piccolo. I think the time alone training allowed Piccolo to become more “united” with Kami by meditation and once again becoming the one Nameless Namek in both body AND mind.

Kami was more “mature” than Piccolo Jr. and was able to hold his head high even when insulted and this showed itself from Kamiccolo when Vegeta insulted him. If you ask me, Vegeta (like Trunks) could sense Piccolo’s power-up but refused to acknowledge it. Again proving or suggesting that the Namek was once again in the ranks of the Super Saiyans.

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Going along with my above statement, I think that Piccolo at least tripled his power level allowing him to be on the same playing field as the Ascended Super Saiyans.

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Despite going in the Time Chamber AGAIN for a second year separately, Trunks and Vegeta were not able to boost their powers as impressively as the first time so they might have once again surpassed Piccolo but not by that much.

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When Vegeta did exit the Time Chamber the second time, Piccolo (without even turning around having his back turned to Vegeta) commented that he was impressed by Vegeta’s power but it was still not enough to defeat Cell…

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The Saiyan Prince just smirked at the comment!

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Finally, we get to the Majin Buu Saga which takes place 7 years after the events of the Cell Games. Piccolo was now living on Kami’s Lookout teaching Dende more about how to be Earth’s Guardian alongside Mr. Popo. Unlike Gohan, I doubt that Piccolo just sat around doing nothing. I’m sure that like Vegeta he was training in the event of another threat that would put the Earth in peril.

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Here we come to another hot topic of discussion: Was Piccolo REALLY weaker than Supreme Kai?

In the manga and anime, Piccolo says that the difference between himself and Supreme Kai (Shin) was dimensions apart in terms of power. Now I’m going to be honest and say that I do not believe that Shin could defeat Piccolo…depending on the circumstances.

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Keep in mind that Piccolo looked like he crapped his pants (that is if Nameks even need to use the restroom) when he thought that Shin was the Grand Kai. It stands to reason that it was the “Kami in him” that made him hesitate and ponder Shin’s true identity instead of fighting. That only makes sense because being Earth’s guardian and knowing about King Kai and other of the Otherworld deities, he would be the one to make Piccolo hesitant about facing a god of higher ranking than himself.

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Piccolo even said that he wasn’t able to focus his power in order to fight Shin. Now, as I mentioned before in the Cell Saga I’d place Piccolo around the power of the Ascended Super Saiyans. I don’t think that he went without training for 7 years like most of the other Z-Fighters.

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If I were to estimate Piccolo’s power during the Babidi and Majin Buu Sagas, I’d say he would probably be around the strength of the Full Power Super Saiyans (Goku and Gohan). I don’t think he was as powerful as Gohan was when he defeated Cell as a Super Saiyan 2.

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Considering how Shin was scared to death of Dabura (who Goku compared to Perfect Cell), I would put Shin around the power of an Ascended Super Saiyan from the Cell Saga. So the gap between Shin and Piccolo would be there but not as big as you might expect it to be.

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Now something that might blow my theory out of the water is the comment Dabura made to Babidi before attacking the Z-Fighters who thought they were well hidden up on the cliffs outside of Babidi’s spaceship; “7 in all…each of them strong…we cannot use the energy from Supreme Kai or Kibito but 3 of them possess energies that will go a long way towards reviving Majin Buu.”

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Babidi tells him to get rid of the small fry (Piccolo, Krillin and Kibito), keep the Supreme Kai alive so he could deal with him personally and lure the other 3 (Gohan, Goku and Vegeta) into his spaceship.

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In one way, you could interpret Dabura as being able to sense the hidden power (Super Saiyan powers) of the Saiyans despite them being in base form. I doubt he was saying that in base form the 3 Saiyans were more powerful than Piccolo. Come on now, I really don’t think that was the case.

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He was probably saying that out of their group only the Saiyans had the power necessary to bring the revival of Majin Buu much sooner than originally anticipated. I can actually agree with this because Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (who Vegeta pointed out as being a lot stronger when he fought Cell) had his power stolen and his Ki alone was enough to bring Buu’s ball to nearly 50% full! Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan was and during their battle in a short period of time the power lost by Super Saiyan 2 Goku brought the ball to 100%. I don’t think Piccolo would be able to do the same with his power so I can see why Dabura wouldn’t think much of the Namek’s power when compared to the Saiyans.

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Aside from being turned to stone by Dabura, he easily killed (or so he thought) Babidi and then helped teach Goten and Trunks the Fusion Technique.

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His “last stand” so to speak was after Gotenks’ fusion time split and he wanted to fight to the end with Super Buu. This caused Trunks to say “doing the best you can” would not be enough because even as a fused Super Saiyan 3 they still couldn’t defeat the monster!

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That was pretty much the last “battle” Piccolo attempted to engage in for the series. He was absorbed by Super Buu, killed when Kid Buu blew up the Earth and revived by the Dragonballs of Namek before enjoying 10 years of peace before the end of the series.

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I don’t count the “Piccolo” that we see in Buu’s mind fighting against Goku and Vegeta. Just like Gotenks and Gohan, he was just a thought form created by Buu’s mind and not the actual Piccolo.

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Piccolo does appear in the events of Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return along with Battle of Gods…where he was easily dispatched by Bills with a pair of chopsticks!

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Piccolo passed on fighting in the 28th World Tournament saying that “He was too old to keep up with Goku and the others.” Despite the fact that he was 31 (32 physically if you count his year in the Time Chamber) which made him only 4 years older than Gohan!

So, he might have done some unseen training between the fight with Kid Buu to Goku’s fight with Uub. However, we don’t see him fighting so I can’t really pinpoint where his power would be. It seems clear that even if he trained it was still no match for the Saiyans given how willingly he stepped down in favor of fighting in the tournament.

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The same can be applied to Dragonball GT, another 10 year gap between DBZ and GT where peace reigns over the Earth. Again, we don’t see Piccolo fighting just appearing after sensing the battle between Gohan and Baby Goten. Baby had taken over Gohan and with one Kamehameha Wave it seemed like he had killed Piccolo.

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He appears to save the Earth (and the universe) from the destructive force of the Blackstar Dragonballs by dying and going to Otherworld.

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When the threat of Super 17 appeared, Piccolo once again stepped up and this time it was to help Goku escape from Hell. In order to help save the Earth, Piccolo remained trapped in Hell so that Goku could protect everyone from the deadly Android. During his time there, it was like he had become the “caretaker” of Hell like Pikkon was in DBZ.

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Goku promised that someday he would get out of Hell and we are brought 100 years into the future where the series ends with Goku Jr. fighting Vegeta Jr. It is unknown if Goku kept his promise and got Piccolo out of Hell or not. One thing is for sure, if Piccolo was left in Hell there is no doubt his power increased considerably during his time there in a dimension full of villains from his past!

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Overall, I’d say Piccolo would possibly be around the power of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan during the Cell Games had he kept up his training after the battle with Kid Buu.

What do you think?

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