Could Gogeta or Vegito Defeat Jiren? | Dragon Ball Super

By Jeremy Carden

I am not sure if this was already mentioned in one of my previous blogs, but I was originally against the idea of Goku and Vegeta fusing during the Tournament of Power.

Yes, this went for both Gogeta (Fusion Dance) and Vegito (Potara Earrings).

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I felt like the Tournament of Power had already handed out enough transformations, power-ups, fusion (Kefla and the Universe 6 Namekians). However, I think the change in tone of the final battle between Universes 7 and 11 has given me a new perspective about fusion.

Goku and Vegeta fusing now would seem appropriate instead of being nothing more than mere fan service like it was during the Zamasu/Goku Black arc or at the end of GT.

In the last episode, Vegeta said that he was willing to do whatever it took to defeat Jiren. 17’s sacrifice to buy the Saiyans sometime for them to recover some stamina would have been the trigger for them to fuse.

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The Saiyans pulled out all the stops to defeat the powerful alien of Universe 11. They tried a Spirit Bomb, Kaio Ken times 20, Ultra Instinct Omen, Final Flash, Limit-Breaker Vegeta, etc.

Heck, Goku even organized a coordinated attack with 17 and Vegeta and that still wasn’t enough!

With both warriors barely able to stand, they refused to surrender considering Vegeta’s promise to Cabba and Goku’s resolve to avenge 17.

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If done right, I believe this would have been one of the most epic battles of the entire franchise. Yes, I am certain that we would see very powerful attacks and fight sequences. However, I think the meaning behind the battle would be even greater than the fight itself.

Jiren does not trust anyone except for himself and his own belief in absolute power standing above all.

Who better to show Jiren that trusting each other and what it means to draw strength from a desire to protect something other than yourself than Goku and Vegeta?

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Remember that they made it clear during Resurrection F/Golden Frieza Saga that they would rather fight alone without helping each other due to their pride.

They did put their differences aside to fuse into Vegito to face Merged Zamasu because the stakes were way too high for either one of them to handle alone. It was for the sake of saving Trunks’ timeline.

Here the same rules apply because they would be fusing to save their entire universe from being erased.

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Since Dragon Ball Super is ending soon, it was just revealed that Goku would be obtaining full mastery of Ultra Instinct. This new level of Ultra Instinct will have the Saiyan sporting white/silver hair. Fans are already split over this new form, but I will wait until I see it in the anime before I form an opinion of my own.

Would Gogeta or Vegito have a mastered version of Ultra Instinct if Goku and Vegeta fused? I would like to say yes because both Saiyans had reached a limit-breaker form.

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Having them fuse with Vegeta (attack) and Goku (defense) having one piece of the puzzle that is Ultra Instinct would have been amazing to see!

In the end, Jiren would eat a piece of humble pie while finally accepting the fact that trust is not a weakness but a strength. It is something far more absolute than any level of strength of that Jiren could achieve on his own.

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Gogeta or Vegito should be more than capable of handing Jiren. Considering that Goku with Ultra Instinct will being giving Jiren a run for his money, I do not believe that a Goku/Vegeta fusion would not be able to get the job done.

Yeah, I might be looking too deep into this subject, but I’d much rather see a brotherhood between these Saiyans to show this emotionless bastard what ‘absolute power’ truly is!

Thoughts?

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Could Kefla Defeat Jiren? | Dragon Ball Super

by Jeremy Carden

Obviously, this post will contain spoilers about the results of Dragon Ball Super Episode 116. Make sure you take that into consideration before going any further. 

Now, I am glad that this episode took its time in terms of having the characters describing the amount of power each fighter had. However, I think that Kefla was way too overpowered!

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For starters, Whis stated that Super Saiyan Kefla’s power rivaled that of the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb; which Roshi said would have defeated Jiren had it hit its target. This explains how Kefla was able to push Goku far enough for him to reactivate Ultra Instinct.

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After she went Super Saiyan 2 against Goku, Piccolo theorized that her power might have even surpassed Goku’s during his first bout with Jiren using Ultra Instinct!

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Before charging at Goku, Kefla boasts that she feels like her power could destroy an ENTIRE universe!

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It is hard to believe that only a couple of days ago, these female Saiyans did not even know what Super Saiyan was. Now, they have obtained one transformation after another, and Potara on top of that!

Fans have been in an uproar about the Universe 6 Saiyans obtaining all of these transformations with ease, but Universe 7 Saiyans had to go through years of training to obtain their power.

I do not fault Cabba at all because for the two levels of Super Saiyan he has gained, he had to actually work for them! His body was nearly broken and his emotions were pushed to the limits. Even though he is weaker than Kale and Caulifla, I think his characters speaks volumes above the girls.

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After becoming enraged over her attacks not hitting Goku, Kefla digs even deeper for more power. Cabba states her power is swelling even larger than before, and Roshi says Goku would lose if he got hit with even one of her attacks at this level.

In the video below, I go into far more detail about Kefla’s power. However, I think that she was written to be too much of a good thing. Yes, it was good to have female Super Saiyans introduced into the franchise, but it was all too much too soon.

It is crazy to think that if she went Super Saiyan 3, her power would have been multiplied by four. However, I think that four would have been the minimum increase because of her bottomless potential! For all we know, she might have obtained some sort of Super Saiyan 3 Berserker transformation! Which I think would have been the trigger to defusing Kefla before the battle could be won.

Remember that Super Saiyan Gotenks could only be utilized for five minutes before Goten and Trunks’ Fusion Dance would split. So, Gotenks had to think carefully before using this form.

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Based on the two pictures above, I actually thought that she was going to go Super Saiyan 3 based on her frustration and posture. That hunched positioning of the body is the typical stance for someone about to go Super Saiyan 3!

Considering all of the power that she was using, I was not going to be the least bit surprised had she defused before landing a finishing blow on Goku.

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I dare say that she may have been able to surpass even Jiren! That might come across as an unbelievable statement, but look at what the writers have done with her so far.

Overall, I have watched the episode around eight times alright. It literally felt like a Dragon Ball Z episode because the first 8-9 minutes consisted of nothing but Goku and Kelfa powering up while everyone is in awe of their strength!

I was a bit bored in the sense that watching two characters fighting, but one not being able to land a blow can get kind of old. Anyone reading this a Pokemon anime/video game fan?

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Don’t you feel that same level of annoyance whenever an opponent uses Double Team, Sand Attack or anything to increase their ability to dodge attacks? It gets so annoying because the battle drags on longer than it should because one Pokemon can’t land an attack at all, and their opponent just attacks whenever it wants to.

One of the worst examples of this was in the Black and White anime (arguably, the worst Pokemon series). It was during the finals of the Jr. Cup World Tournament between Trip’s Serperior and Ash’s Pignite.

During this tournament, Serperior was able to make quick work of every opponent that it was up against. To add insult to injury, this was the only Pokemon that Trip used in the entire tournament. Pignite did everything that it could, but none of its attacks landed.

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Serperior was just using its natural speed without the use of a move like Double Team and it was able to move around each attack like it was nothing. Heck, Pignite was spamming Flame Charge to increase its speed, but even that did not work! That resulted in probably one of the worst battles to watch because it was about five minutes of straight attacking and dodging until Serperior won…

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I did not feel as upset about watching Goku and Kefla but it was almost getting to that point. However, Goku made up for it with that EPIC Kamehameha to the face! It was so epic that we had to see it THREE times from different angles before Kefla was knocked out of the match.

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At least in this episode, we get a twist since Whis points out that even though Goku is handling Kefla with ease, he can’t utilize Ultra Instinct when he attacks because he is still “thinking” of the attack instead of naturally allowing himself to attack. That explains how Kefla as able to get up and dust herself off after each attack.

That is kind of ironic because Kefla’s attacks had the potential to defeat Goku if even one blast landed, but none of Goku’s moves that made contact could finish the job!

Maybe he will be able to master Ultra Instinct before his next match with Jiren.

Do you think Kefla was too overpowered? Do you think she could have defeated Jiren had she obtained Super Saiyan 3? Are you a bit surprised that she did not defuse after exhausting so much power as an enraged Super Saiyan 2? 

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Will Fusion Lead To Universe 6’s Downfall? | Dragon Ball Super

by Jeremy Carden

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Considering the two female Saiyans from Universe 6 will merge using the Potara Earrings, could this possibly have a negative impact for Champa’s team?

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Even the two Namekians for Universe 6 might fuse as well because Gohan and Piccolo are giving them a run for their money.

In the video below, I go into my full thoughts on the subject.

 

Do you think that Vegeta and Goku will merge as well in this Tournament of Power?

There is no telling if the Grand Priest and the Omni-Kings will allow the fusion because it is merging technique with tools for the gods, but if Zeno thinks it is cool then it might be allowed…

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Will the power go to the fused female’s head? I mean they were memorized by Super Saiyan 3, and they might reduce their fusion time.

The next couple of episodes should answer these questions and more! The biggest one being whether or not this new fusion will count as one or two fighters for Team Universe 6! Remember that Champa’s plan for victory has more to do with the number of fighters left by the end of the tournament, but he only has four more left.

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Dragon Ball Super: Have Goku and Vegeta Surpassed Beerus?

By Jeremy Carden

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I must say that the Dragon Ball Super manga has blown me away with such amazing storytelling and action! Even though there are multiple inconsistencies with the manga (and anime) when compared to the original Dragon Ball Z series, I still enjoy reading the manga chapters.

What I think is the most amazing thing about the Dragon Ball Super franchise is the fact that I get to follow it from start to finish. I did not get into the series until I was about 11-years-old, and by that time the manga was done. The anime (in the United States) was in the Kid Buu Saga, and I was fresh to the scene.

In this case, I got to see the Dragon Ball Super series begin with episode 1, and read the manga from Chapter 1. Overall, I just feel privileged to be living in a time like this!

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Now, I am truly excited to see that Goku and Vegeta have finally begun training together. Considering that they are rivals, I think that their training is much more effective as a result. I can see them learning from each other, and really growing as a result. They are probably trying to one-up each other in their sparring sessions.

According to the manga, they trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for 3 years (3 days in our time). Looking past the obvious inconsistency here (only being able to use the room for 48 hours in a lifetime; established by Mr. Popo in DBZ), that is truly impressive!

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I have heard that the Time Chamber was rebuilt after the Buu Saga, and it now allows visitors to use it for more than 48 hours total. Remember that it was destroyed during the battle between Super Buu and Gotenks (Piccolo blew up the door), and apparently rebuilt when the world was restored after being destroyed by Kid Buu.

Whis pointed out the flaws in each Saiyan as an individual, and taught them about how to control their new godly ki. Goku’s carefree attitude which made him vulnerable was the opposite of Vegeta’s uptight demeanor that prevents him from fighting at his maximum potential in a battle.

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At some point in the anime, Whis says that there was no longer a need to train the two Saiyans. During their sparring sessions together, the Saiyans’ innate fighting abilities resulted in them progressing much quicker than Whis had originally anticipated.

Overall, Whis’ goal was to get the Saiyans to become more in tune with their new godly ki. This was why he did not allow them to become Super Saiyan or beyond during their training, and only wanted them in base form to master their new powers. Even though Whis pointed out to the Oracle Fish (in the anime) that the Saiyans knew this which was why he never had to outright tell them to train in base form.

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Beerus was annoyed by the constant noise that the Saiyans were making, and he told Whis to send him to “that place.” It turned out to be a Hyperbolic Time Chamber-like voice where Goku and Vegeta were surrounded by godly energy.

Whis told them that they must raise their powers without it leaking out of their bodies because it would alert their opponents to the power-up.

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Vegeta noticed that until they mastered Whis’ tip, they would not be able to move at all in “that place.” He figured this out because Goku which once again shows that he is a better tactician than his Saiyan rival.

It is unknown exactly how long Goku and Vegeta were in “that place” training in order to master their new godly powers. Goku mentioned that the measurement of time in “that place” was different than the outside world.

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Eventually, Whis releases the two back into the real world. Like the length of time they were in “that place”, it is unknown how much more powerful the two had become. The only thing that we know came as a result was the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation.

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The one thing that I felt caught my attention during their time in “that place” was Whis’ staff. Goku figured that it was the only way of getting out of the void. Take a look at the picture above of Whis’ staff just floating there.

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I always wondered what Goku and Vegeta’s walk towards the light in the opening theme of Dragon Ball Super was all about. After seeing them train, I think that I have figured it out.

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From that same light, we see Beerus/Champa along with Whis/Vados descend to the front of our television (or computer) screens.

Overall, I think Goku and Vegeta approaching that light was their ascension to the level of gods. Then seeing the 4 gods mentioned above coming out from that light is proof of Goku and Vegeta trying to follow in their footsteps in order to reach a higher power.

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This is further backed up by the fact that the next scene shows Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Goten fighting off Frieza’s soldiers; which symbolized the Resurrection F saga which is happening now.

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I guess one difference is that in the anime, Frieza powering up to his final form killed his remaining soliders before Goku and Vegeta could take them on; minus Vegeta killing Tagoma (well Ginyu).

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Alright, Whis mentioned that Goku and Vegeta had a chance at beating Beerus if they teamed up. Super Saiyan Blue is more powerful than Super Saiyan God, and this means SS Blue is more powerful than the 70% Beerus that we saw in the first movie.

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Individually, I do not think that SS Blue Goku or Vegeta could defeat Beerus. I think that is proven by the fact that Golden Frieza (before his ki began to fall) was more powerful than SS Blue Goku, but he was still frightened of Beerus.

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Beerus would probably need to exhaust around 85% or so to defeat the likes of Golden Frieza, and 80% for a single SS Blue opponent.

Again, that is just my opinion with a tiny bit of power scaling based on what has been seen from the movies.

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Moving on with the Time Chamber training, Goku and Vegeta train in 10 times gravity for 3 years. During that time, it would not surprise me if the duo reached Super Saiyan Blue 2 and Super Saiyan Blue 3!

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However, Akira stated in an interview that the SS2 and SS3 transformations were a thing of the past with the main focus being on SS1 because it was the form that utilized the least ki consumption and strain on the user’s body.

I do not know if SS Blue will be the last transformation that we will see in the series. Unless we get to see an SS Blue Vegito or Gogeta!

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Something tells me that at some point during the Champa Saga or afterwards; Goku and Vegeta will fuse! I have already written a couple of blogs with my thoughts on that subject.

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Back to the subject of this blog, I do not see any reason why Goku and Vegeta have NOT surpassed Beerus after their 3 years of training. We are talking about a God of Destruction who does nothing aside from eating, sleeping and watching anime (Whis mentioned that to Goku and the others.

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Compare that purple cat to a couple of warriors who eat, breathe and do nothing but train! I truly believe that their training has resulted in them surpassing the God of Destruction. Unless they get into a battle again with Beerus, I am not sure if they are even aware of their increase in power to the point of rivaling Beerus or surpassing him.

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I do not think that they have surpassed Whis, but I think a fusion between the two would give him one heck of a battle. Why? Given the time that the two have trained with each other instead of training separately against each other, I think it is safe to say that they know each other like the back of their hands.

Seeing if the two have truly mastered Whis’ training of their weaknesses is something that I would like to see. After the time spent fighting each other, I think they might have seen what makes the other Saiyan a genius in their own right. Vegeta’s polished and tactical strategies vs. Goku’s out-of-the box techniques that keep even the most dangerous opponents on their toes.

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Imagine a Gogeta or Vegito that is made up of a Goku and Vegeta that have trained/sparred together for YEARS! I think it is obvious that fusion would be a true blend on even terms of Goku’s relaxed nature and Vegeta’s tense demeanor.

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Whis would be in for one heck of a fight if you ask me!

3 years is a long time, and the Saiyans know how to improve their skills in a short period of time. Just thinking about how much they could have advanced in 3 years is just unbelievable. I wonder if there are any of the Universe 6 opponents who are near the level of Goku and Vegeta now.

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Do you think that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Beerus? Did they reach a new transformation or fuse in the Time Chamber? Will there be anyone from Universe 6 that can truly give them a challenge?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Will Goku and Vegeta Fuse?

By Jeremy Carden

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After watching Revival of F, I have a very strong hunch that Dragon Ball fans will once again see a Goku/Vegeta fusion!

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If you ask me, I think that Whis’ main goal in training the Saiyan duo is not only to help them perfect their fighting abilities as individuals, but to also make them understand that they need to learn how to work together.

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Whis pointed out that Vegeta is too tense and Goku is too carefree. The two are practically opposing opposites when it comes to fighting. Vegeta is the more brilliant fighter, but Goku is better when it comes to off the wall combat (a good fighter that does not go by the books, he is better at overcoming obstacles by thinking outside of the box).

I mean if you look at the times when the two actually worked together to defeat the odds, you have to admit that they make a very potent combo!

For a moment, forget about what is canon and what is non-canon. Think back to some epic moments within the Dragon Ball franchise when these Saiyans actually teamed up.

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The Return of Cooler was a movie where neither Saiyan could take Cooler on in his new form.

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When they put aside their differences, the team destroyed 1 Meta-Cooler robot (before 1,000 showed up). In the end, they overpowered the Big Gete Star achieving victory!

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In the anime-only battle with Buuhan, each Saiyan was getting wrecked by the “mightiest Majin.”

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Goku convinced Vegeta to use the Potara Earrings in order to save the universe, and Vegito was beating around Buu with ease!

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How about when Super Janemba was able to defeat Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta?

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They ended up creating Gogeta in order to send that demon back into oblivion!

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Finally, the threat of Omega Shenron proved too great for even a couple of Super Saiyan 4s to stop!

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Once again, fusion created Gogeta to stop another threat to the universe (though this time around; Gogeta did not get the job done…).

My point is that Goku and Vegeta are extremely powerful as individuals, but working together has proven that the two can overcome almost any obstacle in their way.

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I think Goku said it best when he was describing the Fusion Dance back during the Buu Saga. He said that a being created from the fusion would be capable of accomplishing feats that neither individual could do alone.

Don’t you think that Vegito and Gogeta fit that description perfectly? I mean whenever the Saiyans fused, it was because they realized that they did not stand a chance of winning against their opponent at the time as individuals. They had no other option but to fuse in order to defeat the odds with overwhelming power!

Now the question remains as to whether or not Goku and Vegeta will actually fuse in the Dragon Ball Super series.

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Originally, I thought that if there was a movie to follow Revival of F; the two would fuse again. You have to admit that the movie itself seemed like a setup in order for the Saiyans to realize that they need to work together in order to achieve the best results.

I mean they fought against each other instead of fighting together against Frieza, and the entire world was destroyed (until Whis reversed time) due to their unwillingness to work as a team!

At the end of the film, Goku mentioned that their battle with Frieza was proof that Whis was correct when he said that they should work together more. However, Vegeta scoffed at the remark about them working together. With laughter, Goku agreed that it would never happen.

Is that right?

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Considering that Champa, Universe 6 and the Super Dragon Balls will appear in the DB Super anime/manga; I think the two WILL fuse again!

Why?

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With 11 other universes out there that contain beings more powerful than Beerus AND Whis, the Saiyans will eventually come across opponent(s) too powerful for them to defeat alone.

Fusion would be their only option, and it will be their trump card in order to win against their foes.

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As I mentioned in another blog about Gogeta appearing within the DB Super series, I think that the two fusing would be their completion of their training under Whis.

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I feel this way because as I mentioned above, Whis is teaching the two how to overcome their individual weaknesses, and to also work together as a team.

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Considering that Lord Beerus could be defeated if the two worked together (Whis mentioned this), I think Goku and Vegeta teaming up would be a threat to even gods more powerful than Beerus from some of the other universes!

Whis seeing the two truly working together would be the icing on the cake (because we know how Whis and Beerus love to eat) to their training.

Fans are split as to which fusion would actually appear within the DB Super series. Some say that Gogeta will finally make an appearance, and others are strongly behind Vegito reappearing.

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The thing that gets me is when fans say that Gogeta CAN’T appear because he is NOT considered canon. Personally, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. True, his appearance in GT and Fusion Reborn were considered my most to be non-canon. However, the Fusion Dance itself IS canon because the technique appearance in the anime and manga.

Goku knows about the dance, and he would show it to Vegeta if necessary for them to actually fuse against an opponent. Of course, I am sure that he would object to it because of the prissy movements needed to execute the technique. He did perform an embarrassing bingo dance to save the planet from destruction. What harm could performing one little ballet dance (Fusion Dance) do?

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Think about how upset he was when he had to hold hands with Goku in order to teleport to earth using Instant Transmission! Although, I thought he could have just placed his hand on Goku’s shoulder or something, but I guess the writers wanted to make that scene as awkward as they possibly could.

In my opinion, I believe that Gogeta will be the one who appears in the DB Super series if the Saiyans ever fused.

Why?

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Do you really believe that Vegeta or Goku would want to do a permanent fusion (again)?

The only reason Vegito split was because of Buu’s digestive system breaking the Potara Fusion apart.

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In Battle of Gods, Revival of F and DB Super Episode 5, whenever fusion was mentioned it was a reference to Vegito NOT Gogeta. This is because Vegito was the only fusion between the two to appear in both the anime and manga.

Unless we see Vegito from one of the other 11 universes, I do not think that he will appear again. Perhaps there is another universe where they used the Potara Fusion, but for whatever reason they did not split apart.

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This is what happened in the DB Multiverse series because there was a universe where Vegito did not remove the barrier protecting him within Buu’s body. After escaping with the absorbed Z-Fighters, Vegito killed Kid Buu (and the fusion stayed intact).

I know that DB Super is changing some of the events of Battle of Gods/Revival of F, but it is still unknown whether or not the ending of DBZ anime/manga will be kept the same. I am not just referring to Uub appearing and then leaving to train with Goku.

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I am talking about Goku and Vegeta not being fused into Vegito because we see them as two individual Saiyans.

That is why I feel that if they do fuse, Goku and Vegeta would use the Fusion Dance to become Gogeta.

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Who is to say that the Kais couldn’t make special Potara Earrings that would allow a temporary fusion?

However, that would be like opening a can of worms in order to make Vegito show up again.

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Another possibly is that Whis (or another being) knows of a fusion technique that we have never seen before! There really is no clear understanding on where the story of DB Super is going because it has just started. I am really excited because of the revival of the DB franchise as a whole, and anything can happen!

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I could care less about which fusion appears because I love both Gogeta and Vegito. The one thing that I want to see more than anything is an opponent that makes a Goku/Vegeta fusion actually HAVE to use their full power!

Remember that Super Gogeta, Super Vegito and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta dominated their opponents with ease. We never got to see the full extent of their power, and that is something that a lot of fans would want to see at some point.

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Can you imagine the power and techniques utilized by a full power Gogeta or Vegito? It makes me excited because any awesome techniques from the series are almost always put into DBZ video games. Not to mention the possibility of a new Super Saiyan level!

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Which fusion do you think will appear in the future; Gogeta, Vegito or someone entirely new?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Z: Did Whis Create Kid Buu?

By Jeremy Carden

I have been puzzled by this question ever since I watched Battle of Gods, and read an article about an interview with Akira Toriyama regarding Majin Buu’s origins.

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When asked about Buu’s origins, Akira said this:

“Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.”

I was surprised by this information because it adds an entirely new dimension on how Buu came to be the Majin that fans know best.

Now, it is time to get down to the theory itself on how Kid Buu might be connected to Whis.

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Originally, I thought that Whis was the God of Creation because Beerus was the God of Destruction.

However, this was not the case because Akira actually stated that it was the Supreme Kais who were responsible for the creation of planets, and Beerus was the being responsible for the destruction of planets and star systems.

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King Kai told Goku that both forms of life are needed in the universe in order to maintain balance.

Alright, so it has been established that the Supreme Kais and Beerus are more or less responsible for different roles in the universe to balance things out, and Whis is pretty much the supreme being above all else in Universe 7 (the universe that we know of from DBZ).

What does this have to do with Kid Buu?

Based on Akira’s origins for the character, Buu seemed to have come out of nothingness. You might compare Buu to the Big Bang Theory, and how the universe came from an incredible explosion that seemed to have come from nowhere. However, something had to have triggered that big bang, and I am thinking that the same could have been true about Buu’s existence.

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My theory is that Whis created Kid Buu BEFORE the role (or job) of “God of Destruction” was a position that existed in Universe 7.

Buu does not have a date in which he came into existence, and it was mentioned that he has existed since time immemorial. This means that Buu is so old that it is almost generally accepted (or hinted at by Akira) that Buu has existed since the dawn of time.

Let’s say that Whis created Buu, but where did the Kais come from?

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Akira said this when asked about how one becomes a Supreme Kai (supposedly the highest status in the universe):

“No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their life spans are about 75,000 years.”

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Considering the life of a Supreme Kai is around 75,000 years, it could mean that Buu was pretty much close to being an immortal because there was only 1 of him.

However, it also makes sense that there would be multiple overseers of the universe because of different quadrants. That is where East, North, West and South Kai come into play.

Think of it like this:

The Supreme Kais are the Gods of Creation and oversee both the living and other world. The lower Kais (King Kai and his 3 counterparts) guard and oversee the living world.

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Does it seem fair that there is only one being on destruction (Buu), but there are multiple Kais who have the ability to make worlds?

Something tells me that 1 creature of destruction was enough, and the Kais probably were not making planets just for the sake of making them. I am sure that Whis might have had some word in how much could be created, or felt that Buu was more than enough to keep the planet total in check.

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Anyway, I think the most interesting part of Akira’s description of Buu was the concept of Buu not being the evil maniac that we saw in DBZ.

He describes Buu as cycling between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent.

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This sounds very similar to the origins of the Original Nameless Namek! Remember that he arrived on earth due to the storms on Namek that were on the verge of destroying the entire planet. However, the storms ended after the Namek was sent to earth. He waited years and years for his people to follow him, but they never came. During his time on earth, he watched the evilness of mankind and slowly began to adapt those traits in his personality.

From there, the Namek eventually had to surrender the evilness in his heart (that was “born” through his interactions and visuals of mankind) in order to become Guardian of the Earth.

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That was how Kami became the good-hearted overseer of Earth, and the pure evil King Piccolo came into existence.

Again, this goes back to Buu’s origins! He was a being that seemed to be created for nothing more than destruction that resulted from his rampages.

Similar to the Nameless Namek, it seems that during his rampages, Buu picked up characteristics from mankind (apparently the worst traits); sadistic, murderous, insane and other negative aspects of the living.

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Not to mention that like the Namek, Buu eventually split into a good and an evil half.

I will touch on this more when we eventually get to Buu coming into contact with the wizard Bibidi.

It appears that Buu was a being that helped to keep the balance between creation and destruction in check. This sounds very similar to the role of “God of Destruction.” After those long rampages, he would go into his ball for a long duration of hibernation.

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This mirrors the pattern of Beerus because he destroys planets as a way of making sure that there is balance in the universe, but then goes into long periods of hibernation. Whis is there to keep Beerus in check, and appears to keep the purple kitty from needless acts of destruction.

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Now we will throw Bibidi into the equation! Originally, it was believed that this midget wizard was the one responsible for creating Buu. On the contrary, Bibidi knew of the spell that could release Buu from his ball during his hibernation cycle to recharge his batteries so to speak.

From there, he turned Kid Buu into Majin Buu. The pink powerhouse was no longer a natural universal tool for balance. He was now a minion for an insane wizard. It is true that Bibidi did not have full control over Buu, but he was using him for his own means.

Galactic domination was the goal of Bibidi, and with Buu’s power at his disposal; he could have achieved what he was trying to obtain.

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First off, the Supreme Kais were on his hit list. We all know the story of how Buu killed the North and West Supreme Kais.

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After that, Buu absorbed South Kai and the Grand Supreme Kai. This resulted in Kid Buu becoming the Buff and the Fat Majin Buu that we saw when he was released from his ball during the Majin Buu Saga.

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We also know that the Eastern Supreme Kai eventually became the Supreme Kai that oversaw the entire universe.

It is not mentioned when the “lower Kais” were born, but I wager that those Kais (King Kai-level Kais) came into existence after Buu absorbed and killed the Supreme Kais.

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That seems to make the most sense considering that Supreme Kai would have been the only Kai alive to do the job. King Kai and his 3 other counterparts could have been born to oversee the lower realm to assist Supreme Kai. They may have also assisted with planet creation as well.

Of course, this is just my own personal speculation of it all, but it interesting anyway you look at it.

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Let’s backtrack to when Old Kai was trapped inside of the Z-Sword because I think it adds another interesting piece to the possible connection between Buu and Beerus.

Akira said this about Old Kai:

“The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.”

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When he was released from the sword, Old Kai mentioned that there was a terrible villain that trapped him inside of the sword. This being was jealous of his awesome magical capabilities, and he tricked Old Kai!

The dialogue that caught my attention was that “this villain” was not as terrible as Majin Buu, but still pretty bad!

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As mentioned above, this “villain” who trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword was none other than Beerus!

Old Kai’s statement could imply 1 of 2 things:

  1. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because at that point in time, Beerus may have not been as powerful as Kid Buu.
  2. Beerus was not as terrible as Majin Buu because he was not an insane destroyer. He had some reasoning and sense of right/wrong. Though he has short tempter, and will destroy a solar system when angered, Old Kai might not have seen Beerus in the same realm of “evil” as Buu.

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Wait, how could the God of Destruction potentially be weaker than Kid Buu?

Considering that Buu was possibly in existence since the beginning of time, it makes sense that Old Kai during his time (15 generations ago when compared to the Eastern Supreme Kai-turned Supreme Kai) knew of the terrible evil menace rampaging around the universe.

We do not know the origins of Beerus, but I do not think he was always the all-powerful being that we saw in Battle of Gods. Keep in mind that I think he was selected by Whis to become the God of Destruction, but during his initial acceptance of the job, he may not have been all that powerful.

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Maybe there is some kind of ritual that takes place that allows one to become a God of Destruction just like there is a ritual for a Super Saiyan God to appear.

After Beerus became a god, Whis became his fighting instructor and overseer. He might have taught him in the ways of combat, but Whis was still unable to teach Beerus to control that temper and sense of entitlement.

Similar to Ying and Yang, it makes sense that the Gods of Creation and the God of Destruction would not get along. I wonder what kind of argument caused Old Kai to be trapped in the Z-Sword.

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Depending on what dub you watched, Beerus destroyed King Kai’s once huge planet due to losing a video game or playing hide-and-seek. That was why King Kai’s planet was so small when we first saw it in the Saiyan Saga.

With that being said, I am sure that Beerus got enraged over nothing. That was how the Old Kai was trapped. Old Kai said that he was 15 generations before Supreme Kai. Considering that each Supreme Kai has a lifespan of about 75,000 years that means that Old Kai was possibly trapped in the sword around 1,125,000 years before he was released! I got that number by simply multiplying 15 times 75,000.

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In terms of power, we know that Kid Buu is on par with a Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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At the beginning of Battle of Gods, Beerus defeated Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a pluck to the forehead and a karate chop to the neck.

I think that it goes without saying that Beerus is in an entirely different realm of power than Kid Buu!

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It all goes back on how you interpret the Old Kai’s statement of Beerus being less terrible than Buu. Whether it was in regards to his power or temperament is all based on perspective. This is very similar to the fan interpretation of Old Kai comparing the Fusion Dance to the Potara Earrings.

Maybe Beerus was powerful, but not Kid Buu-level in terms of strength during the time when he trapped Old Kai in the Z-Sword?

Again, that is left to speculation…

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In any case, I think this theory can be summed up by Bibidi’s spell over Buu. I think that if Whis was truly the one who created Buu, he did so with the intention of Buu hibernating.

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Do you really think that Whis would create a being that would rampage endlessly throughout the universe without giving it an off switch? I don’t think that he would, and that is why I think Whis created Buu with his batteries needing to be recharged through hibernation in his ball.

Considering that Beerus isn’t immortal because Whis offered Goku the position of God of Destruction after Beerus eventually died, I think it is safe to say that Buu existed before Beerus.

Another possible scenario is that Buu and Beerus had hibernation cycles that occurred at different times. Perhaps Beerus would be sleeping while Buu was rampaging, and vice versa.

The flaw in that theory would be an endless cycle of destruction that would occur because of 2 powerful beings…

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Not to mention that Beerus considered 39 years of sleeping as nothing more than a catnap. I think Buu’s hibernation cycles were extremely longer than that. However, when Bibidi (and later Babidi) got Buu under one of his spells, Buu would not hibernate for long. He was sealed up whenever Bibidi felt that Buu was slipping out of control or when he needed to rest.

Perhaps Whis felt that as long as Buu was destroying planets (even while under a wizard’s control) that it was helping to keep balance.

I know that makes Whis sound kind of like an uncaring parent, but really these “gods” aren’t exactly as all-knowing as their job descriptions may have you believe…

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That could be why Whis actually trained Beerus (and possibly the other Gods of Destruction before him), and kept watch over him instead of letting him rampage across the universe like Buu.

One might assume that Whis saw the results of leaving a being of powerful destructive capabilities (Buu) unchecked could result in terrible results. I mean Buu literally wiped out the Kais, and that pretty much ruined some of the universal balance.

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You are probably wondering why Whis did not recognize “his creation” during Battle of Gods when he was hogging the pudding cups.

Remember that Old Kai was sealed in the sword by Beerus prior to Kid Buu becoming Fat Buu. It could be that after Beerus (or whoever the first God of Destruction was) entered the god-ranking as the being of destruction, Whis left Buu to his own means.

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He probably figured Buu was on a ranking like King Kai and his other counterparts, and Beerus was now on the level of Supreme Kai(s). Both races were in check of creation and destruction with lower beings to assist with their job.

From there, Whis was not aware that Kid Buu had evolved into Fat Buu, and that was why he took notice of “that pink gentleman” instead of calling him Majin Buu.

Regardless as to whether or not my theory is true, I think that it is a very interesting topic to think about.

Also, here is a link to the interview with Akira Toriyama: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/.

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What do you think about this theory? Was Buu created by Whis before the position of God of Destruction was introduced, or did he “naturally” come into the existence from the universe itself? Was Buu at one point in time more powerful than Beerus?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?

Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?