Dragon Ball Super: When Will The Series Take Place?

By Jeremy Carden

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With all of the leaked information about the new series, fans are very confused about when the series will take place. Originally, it was believed that Dragon Ball Super would take place after the events of Revival of Frieza.

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However, with recent pictures and chapters from the DB Super manga, it appears that this is not the case. Fans are even speculating that DB Super will erase Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza off of the map due to an inconsistency involving Beerus and his premonition of a Super Saiyan God!

Again, this is all speculation, and this blog is going to cover my own personal thoughts as to when this series will take place. Not only that, I will mention my own opinions on where the series will go. We do know that it is going to be at least 100 episodes, and possibly more depending on how well it is received by fans.

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Overall, I feel that this series will recap the events that occurred between the defeat of Kid Buu and the movie Battle of Gods. From there, it will cover the events between Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza.

Afterwards, it will cover the events between Revival of Frieza and Goku leaving the 28th World Tournament with Uub.

What I would love to see is the series going even beyond that like GT did!

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Something that could really throw things into perspective is the special released in Japan called “Yo! Son Goku and his friends return!” This is the anime special that introduced us to Vegeta’s brother named Tarble.

Here is what the time frame between Kid Buu’s death and Uub leaving with Goku looks like based on the original dates given in the Japanese version:

  • The short film about Tarble took place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu
  • Battle of Gods took place 2 years after “Yo! Son Goku”
  • Revival of Frieza occurred 1 year after Battle of Gods

This means that there are still 5 years for the writers to play around with before the anime episode called “Granddaughter Pan.” In this episode, we see the series fast forward 10 years from the death of Kid Buu.

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In the end, the biggest question raised by fans is whether or not the ending of DB Super will stay true to the original ending of DBZ. Goku leaving with Uub occurs 10 years after the defeat of Kid Buu.

Let’s say that DB Super, Revival of F and Battle of Gods fit into the continuity of events that leads up to Goku vs. Uub. Re-watching that fight, it is amazing to believe that young Uub is holding his own with Goku (who by that time had achieved Super Saiyan God, Saiyan beyond God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and possibly even more power!)!

However, keep in mind that Goku was clearly holding back in that fight in order to test Uub’s abilities.

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Not to mention that similar to Tien’s Neo-Tri Beam against Semi-Perfect Cell, he was putting up an impressive feat by holding back Cell, but that was all he was doing. He wasn’t damaging Cell, but he was holding him off from absorbing #18.

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I think the same can be said about Uub during his fight with Goku because the Majin-turned-human was putting up a good fight, but it was clear that the only damage he inflicted on Goku was on his clothes!

Well, at the beginning of the fight he did make Goku’s arm tingle with a fierce kick. However, Goku underestimated Uub’s power, and remember Whis told him that letting his guard down makes even a body as powerful as his susceptible to damage from weaker opponents.

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Sorbet’s Ring Laser proved that point to be true when he pierced Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku’s heart!

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I actually think that Goku leaving with Uub would be even more touching since Whis (the Supreme Being) in Universe 7 ended up training a low-class Saiyan to become one of the best in the universe. This is like Goku sharing his skills with a young Indian boy from a poor village. The most unlikely people ended up learning from the best in the universe!

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However, I would still like DB Super to possibly continue even after Goku leaves with Uub so we can see what happens next!

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When you think about it, 5 years in DB time is not really that much. Keep in mind that the 3 years of training for the battle with the Androids was shown in a couple of episodes, but “skipped” in a single episode! Compare that to the “5 minutes” for Namek to explode, and that was stretched out for around a dozen episodes…

DB Super is going to be doing some obvious time jumps, but I think it will be worth it. I am one of those fans that love to see things being covered and explained instead of skipped over.

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Ever since I saw the picture of Gohan and Videl on their wedding day in Granddaughter Pan, I wanted to see those two being hitched! In the first episode of the new series, we learn that Goten is going to be looking for a gift because his brother’s wedding is happening soon.

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Based on Goku’s outfit while he is farming, I have a suspicion that Tarble will appear, and then we will jump to the events post-Battle of Gods. In the leaked manga chapter, we see Goku farming, Mr. Satan arriving with 100 million zeni for him, and Goku telling Goten that he wishes he could train with King Kai.

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In the Tarble special, Goku asks Chi-Chi why they have to farm despite the fact that Mr. Satan had given them a ton of money. His wife explains that despite the money, they should still work to earn their own form of financial stability. I find that interesting because it was Goku who fought to save the universe from Buu (along with help from his friends of course), and Mr. Satan was returning the favor because he thought Goku deserved something out of it!

Also in the special, Mr. Satan invites all of the Z-Fighters to his new hotel opening in honor of him defeating Buu. Here is where we reach a form of contradiction from the main series.

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Remember that 4 months after the defeat of Kid Buu, Goku had Shenron erase the memories of Majin Buu from the minds of earthlings so Good Buu (Fat Buu or Mr. Buu) could live a peaceful life on earth.

The only way I could see the world still worshiping Mr. Satan would be for them to praise and award him during the 4 months between Kid Buu’s death and their minds being erased. They must have had plans for the hotel along with the other awards for him, but after the mind wipe it seems clear that they gave it to him anyway (despite not knowing what threat they were saved from).

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Another thing to mention is the fact that Tarble was mentioned in Battle of Gods by Bulma. They were looking for a fifth Saiyan to help in the Super Saiyan God ritual, but they could not find one. Vegeta mentioned that his brother is in another star system, but he did not know which one.

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This most likely means we will indeed see everyone meeting Tarble in the first part of DB Super.

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Not to mention we see Goku training on King Kai’s Planet in the new trailer, and this was also seen at the beginning of Battle of Gods. My guess is Chi-Chi loosened the chain on Goku since Mr. Satan gave them all of that money, and he was allowed to do some training.

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Now let’s talk about Beerus’ premonition about the Super Saiyan God possibly erasing Battle of Gods and Revival of Frieza out of the picture. Above is a photo from Chapter 1 of the DB Super manga, and it has driven fans insane!

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Beerus is on some alien planet, and he is having a feast. After revealing that he knew the inhabitants had poisoned his food (with no effect on him at all), he blew up their planet. He then talks to Whis about his dream about an opponent that would entertain him known as a Super Saiyan God.

Apparently, Beerus had just awoken from his 39 year slumber and was still a bit tired. Whis then suggests they go to their home world so he can remember his dream better.

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I thought that the Oracle Fish would be the key to the timeline. Why? Remember according to Beerus, it was the fish that told him that a Super Saiyan God would appear to give him a good fight and rival his power. He said that he would appear in 39 years, and that was why Beerus woke up “early” from his slumber because of the premonition from the Oracle Fish.

Again, it depends on the translation from the dub and manga because the Oracle Fish’s prophecy differs. One says that the fish foretold of the Super Saiyan God, but the other says that his prophecy was only that an unnamed opponent that would eventually become a rival to Beerus would appear. Then it was during a dream Beerus had while sleeping for 39 years that revealed the identity of his rival; a Super Saiyan God.

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Originally, I thought this scene from the manga would be Beerus thinking about the prophecy the fish told him, he would sleep 39 years after Whis takes him home, and then he would reawaken during Battle of Gods.

However, seeing Old Kai and Kibito Kai in the last panel shot that theory apart…

Overall, it is inconsistent that Beerus apparently woke up earlier in DB Super than he did in Battle of Gods. I do not think that this one little thing will erase that movie and Revival of F from the continuity. It could be that Akira is simply changing things up a bit for something just a little different.

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I do find it interesting that in the beginning of Battle of Gods, when the Kais sense Beerus’ awakening, there is a wide shot of a distant galaxy, and what appears to be the remains of a destroyed planet.

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After that, we see that Old and Supreme Kai were watching the events unfold. Could those floating rocks in space be the remains of the alien world that Beerus destroyed in the DB Super manga, or were they simply just asteroids floating in space?

Just something interesting to think about…

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Finally, I will simply talk about what I think will happen in the series. It has been revealed that a new character named Champa and a female-looking version of Whis will appear on Beerus’ planet.

Apparently he is also a God of Destruction, and he could be from one of the 11 other universes in the DB world.

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When he appears in DB Super has not yet been revealed, but my guess is either before Battle of Gods or after Revival of Frieza.

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I think it would be interesting for the series to allow us to see some of the 11 other universes. Considering Goku and Vegeta’s power is growing at an impressive rate, it seems clear that they may soon surpass Beerus with their individual power.

Not sure how long it would take for them to ever pass Whis, but at some point I think that they will. Regardless as to whether it is through them working together or fusing. Since the series is set to be 100 episodes (and maybe more), I have no doubt that other gods from the other universes will appear! Beerus even said in Battle of Gods that some of those universes spawned beings that were more powerful than he and Whis.

We all know that Goku thrives for fighting more powerful opponents, and Vegeta will not allow himself to be outdone by that low-level clown!

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Could DB Super be similar to the web comic DB Multiverse, and we will see a huge tournament between other DB universes?

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Either way, I think that the series has a lot of potential, and I am looking forward to it. I really hope that it is not like GT because I want all of the characters to shine in DB Super! GT was pretty much “Goku Time” and made everyone else weak.

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In DB Super, fans fear that with opponents like gods and other powerful beings, Goku and Vegeta will be the ONLY ones who have a chance to oppose them.

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This means that everyone else in the show like Super Gotenks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan would not stand a chance. Given their performance in Revival of Frieza (minus Gotenks)…this might be the case.

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I want to see a teenage/adult Gotenks, Piccolo reaching a new level of power, and Gohan not being written to be a weakling when he is one of the most powerful beings in the universe!

There are so many twists and turns that this new series can travel down, but I will remain a fan and view it! I do not want to be one of those fans who give the series a thumbs down before it even airs because I want this to be great. The main reason for the series being revived is because of its popularity that is being kept alive by the fans.

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With that being said, what do you think about this theory? How far will DB Super go? Will it continue up until the end of DBZ when Goku leaves with Uub? Will this erase the final 3 episodes of DBZ completely, and create something new? Do you think we will see the other 11 universes?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragon Ball Z Revival of F: Is Golden Frieza More Powerful Than Beerus?

By Jeremy Carden

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What would happen if the God of Destruction fought against the Emperor of the Universe?

This is one question that has been asked by many fans since Frieza returned from the grave!

In Revival of F, Frieza comes back to get revenge on the Saiyans who defeated him in the past. After 4 months of training, the tyrant reaches a new power that he feels is more than enough to bury Goku and his friends for good.

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According to his Japanese voice actor, Frieza’s power is clocked at 100 quintillion in his Golden Form. Most fans do not take this number to heart because this is a voice actor’s words, and not the “official” words of Akira Toriyama.

In any case, we do know that Golden Frieza is not an opponent to take lightly. However, how does his new power stack up to Beerus?

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In Battle of Gods, it is mentioned that Beerus was not a fan of Frieza’s self-entitled attitude. Beerus even says that he would destroy Frieza the next time they crossed paths.

That one moment during the movie was something that caught the attention of fans because it hinted at a possible encounter between Beerus and Frieza (despite the fact that he was dead at the time).

In order to figure out if Golden Frieza could defeat Beerus, it is essential to look at his battles against Goku and Vegeta.

At the level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Goku and Vegeta are said to be more powerful than Beerus (at 70% power). Whis says that if the 2 Saiyans were to fight Beerus as a team, they could potentially defeat the God of Destruction.

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Golden Frieza was shown to be more powerful than an individual Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Goku even states that he was losing his battle with Frieza. He was not able to start gaining the upper hand in the fight until Frieza’s power began to drop.

So, we do know that in terms of raw power; Frieza is more powerful than the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans.

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Just like his 100% form on Namek, Frieza’s strength is not fully under his control. Due to this flaw, his power level begins to drop the longer he is battling at his peak power.

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This confirms that Golden Frieza is at least more powerful than Beerus at 70% of his maximum power.

Does this mean that Golden Frieza could defeat Beerus if he was at his maximum power?

In my opinion, I do not think that Frieza could defeat Beerus.

Even though 4 months of training was enough to bring Frieza’s abilities to combat the Saiyans, I do not think it was enough to take on Beerus.

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The Super Saiyan God form is very similar to Golden Frieza. Remember that Goku was only fighting at 80% power during his battle with Beerus. Right when he was about to ramp it up to 100%, the time limit on the Super Saiyan God power ran out.

When you look at it from that perspective, Super Saiyan God has the obvious flaw of having a time limit, and that can cause the user to be left in a life-threatening situation.

After mastering the form by training under Whis, Goku and Vegeta were able to take it to the next level as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans.

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This is similar to Gohan and Goku mastering the regular Super Saiyan form, and becoming Full Power Super Saiyans during their training in the Time Chamber.

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Without the handicap of a time limit to slow him down, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku was able to fight with a power that surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku.

I think that if Frieza had taken time to master his new Golden Form, he could have reached a power that did not have a severe handicap just like Goku and Vegeta were able to acquire.

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Keep in mind that mastery over his Golden Form could have resulted in a new transformation! Remember that his older brother (Cooler) was able to master his true form (or 4th form depending on how you look at it), and from there unlocked an entirely new form.

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As Vegeta pointed out, Frieza should have mastered his new Golden Form prior to coming to earth for revenge. Perhaps things would have turned out differently for him if he had taken that advice.

If Frieza had actually mastered his Golden Form, then I think he might have been able to surpass even the power of Beerus.

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It is a scary realization to say that in only 4 months, Frieza was able to pass by the power of the Super Saiyan Gods! I mean Goku and Vegeta are the best of the best, but Frieza had them beat.

Even though I loved seeing Vegeta beat the crap out of Frieza, I was a bit disappointed that the main reason he was able to do so was because of Frieza’s power dropping during his fight with Goku.

Golden Frieza noticed that Beerus was on earth during his fight with Goku, and the tyrant’s face was covered in fear! Now if he had mastered that Golden Form, then perhaps he would have challenged Beerus after killing the Saiyans.

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Another thing to take into consideration is Frieza’s skill. It is true that his power is incredible, but he lacks the training of superior mentors to add more moves to his already deadly arsenal. Goku has had a lot of mentors during his lifetime, Vegeta’s first true master is Whis, and Beerus trained with Whis as well.

Whis points out that Beerus still has his own flaws to overcome to become a perfect warrior. He has pride just like the Saiyans, and his anger gets the better of him. However, I think his skill surpasses Frieza’s in the long run.

What do you think of my theory on this battle between destroyers? Do you feel that Frieza does have the power in Golden Form to surpass the power of Beerus?

Dragon Ball Super: Will Gogeta Battle The Gods?

By Jeremy Carden

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I would start this blog off by saying something along the lines of “Dragon Ball Z is back!” However, the show has never really gone anywhere. Despite the fact that the show ended sometime ago, fan support has helped the franchise flourish over the past couple of decades.

With new video games and movies coming out of the woodwork, the series seems to be more popular than ever before! Aside from Battle of Gods, the sequel Revival of F will soon be hitting theaters.

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Even since the introduction of Super Saiyan God, fans have been dying to see a Super Saiyan God Fusion. Before watching Battle of Gods (which I have seen at least two dozen times at this point), I was convinced that Gogeta and/or Vegito would be able to CRUSH the likes of Bills (I honestly call him both Bills AND Beerus) and Whis!

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My opinion slightly changed after watching the uncut version, and Goku speculated that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus. Considering that Battle of Gods is canon, and Goku mentioned that he must fuse with Vegeta AGAIN, I think he was referring to Vegito (not Gogeta).

Keep in mind that Vegito is canon, but Gogeta is not. Vegito was in the anime/manga, but Gogeta was only present in the non-canon movie Fusion Reborn. Even though we saw Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT, that series was non-canon as well.

I was very troubled ever since I heard Goku’s statement about a fusion not being able to defeat Beerus. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was fighting against an opponent that he underestimated, and was unable to sense due to the gods having a Ki signature that is unable to be detected by “lower beings.”

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When Goku said that fusion would not be enough to win, I wondered if that statement meant Super Saiyan 3 Vegito (or Gogeta) would be unable to defeat Beerus. While he and Vegeta created Vegito, we only saw them at the base and Super Saiyan level. Going Super Saiyan 2 would have doubled his Super Saiyan power, and Super Saiyan 3 would have quadrupled his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Overall, if Vegito went Super Saiyan 3 against Super Buu (which he did not have to do to begin with); his power would have been 8 times more powerful than Super Vegito.

Beerus has been confirmed to be more powerful than Vegito and Super Saiyan God Goku. We never learn if Super Saiyan God Goku was more powerful than Vegito though.

Keep in mind that if Goku and Vegeta fused after the Battle of Gods movie, their fusion would be much more powerful than Buu Saga Vegito or Fusion Reborn Gogeta.

What does this have to do with Gogeta fighting the gods?

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According to the manga chapter releases and online Revival of F movie summaries, Goku and Vegeta are now the students of Whis.

What is interesting about their training is that Whis points out the flaws in their fighting styles.

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Goku is a powerful warrior, and there is no doubt about that. However, he is much too lax during combat. Due to this flaw, he leaves himself open to attack, and that could cause him to lose to someone weaker than he is.

Vegeta is too stressed out during combat because of his eagerness to outdo Goku. He thinks far too much, and this causes him to crack under pressure. Whis admits that Vegeta is a brilliant tactician and warrior. However, that hesitation in battle is his downfall.

Based on the outcome of Revival of F, I have a prediction that not only will we get another movie to follow this one (or maybe more than just one), but I think we will see Goku and Vegeta fuse once again!

Why?

It goes back to their coaching from Whis regarding their flaws. Goku is far too laidback and Vegeta is just too stiff. Due to their flaws, they have not reached perfection as warriors.

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At the end of the movie, Whis points out that if the two had worked together to fight Frieza, they would have defeated him much sooner and easier than their individual fights against the tyrant.

The Saiyans then say that they could not work together like that in combat due to their own personalities. However, it has been proven in the past that the two CAN indeed work together, and when they do; they are capable of amazing feats.

During the fight against Kid Buu, the two did not fight side-by-side, but it was Vegeta’s plan to use the Spirit Bomb.

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Even in GT, Bulma pointed out to Chi-Chi that when their husbands put aside their differences and work together; they can accomplish anything. She said this while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was effortlessly making a fool out of Omega Shenron.

Another good line from GT that I would like to use on the subject of teamwork would be the joint efforts of Dr. Myuu and Dr. Gero. Despite Goku and Vegeta being Saiyans and not cyborgs/androids, I still feel Super 17 fits into this discussion.

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Gero pointed out that the original #17 that we know about was incomplete, and his power was originally supposed to exceed the power of Cell. However, after he was killed and brought back to life; half of him went to Hell and the other back to earth. I honestly do not know how to make sense of that, but this was GT after all…

In any case, the dialogue mentioning how the complete components of one #17 would fill in the incomplete components of the other #17 would create the ultimate machine mutant artificial human (try saying that 3 times fast).

My point is this; it is the flaws and rivalry of the Saiyans that makes their fusion more complete.

This is mentioned by the Old Kai when he described Vegito’s power to Kibito Kai. It makes a lot of sense and despite the Old Kai describing the Potara Fusion; I believe he was just talking about the two warriors being fused in general.

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When Goku first described Fusion to Mr. Popo, Dende, Krillin and Piccolo (the Fusion Dance), he said that the result would be a warrior who was capable of feats that neither individual could perform alone.

This makes me even more excited for Goku and Vegeta to fuse in order to fight an opponent while Whis and Beerus are watching, or for them to fuse in order to fight/train against them.

I feel that the two either working together or fusing will result in them “graduating” from Whis’ training camp.

What makes me say that?

Considering that Akira Toriyama has stated that the Battle of Gods/Revival of F movies are going to fit into the canon timeline, I think the key factor of their completion of Whis’ training is illustrated by Goku’s final outfit in the Dragon Ball Z series.

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First off, blue is my favorite color, and I loved Goku’s blue gi!

Another thing to note is that Goku’s outfit does not bear the symbol of any of his former masters. True, Whis was not created during the time of the original manga/anime that involved the end of Z. In the past, we know that after training with someone (Korin, Roshi, King Kai, etc.), Goku would wear an outfit with their symbol(s) on it.

After becoming a Super Saiyan, Goku no longer wore the symbol of any of his former masters.

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However, this trend ended because in Battle of Gods, Goku is once again wearing his trademark gi with symbols on the front and back of it.

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In Revival of F, the Saiyans are now wearing the symbol of Whis since they are training under him.

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This leads me to believe that at some point, Goku and Vegeta complete their training under Whis and return to their “normal” lives on earth.

I really hope that at some point we do get to see Goku take on his blue gi at some point in the new movies that seem to continue on from Battle of Gods.

Overall, I think that if these new movies continue to come out, we WILL see Goku and Vegeta fuse.

Revival of F seemed to be more of a movie that focused on Goku and Vegeta more than Frieza.

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Don’t get me wrong, it was great to see Frieza again, but it seemed that Golden Frieza was just another 100% Frieza from the Namek Saga.

Goku reaches a Super Saiyan level (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan), and Frieza unleashes his true power (Golden Frieza).

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It is a fierce battle, but due to lack of mastery over his maximum potential; Frieza’s power drops which leads to him losing the match.

Then in a final desperate attempt to avoid dying at the hands of a Saiyan, he blows up the planet he is on.

Literally, it was like watching the Frieza Saga all over again!

The ending of the movie seems like it was the setup for another film in which Goku and Vegeta might come across an opponent that neither can defeat alone, and Fusion would be their ONLY option to win!

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Their opponent to push them into a fusion could be some god from one of the other universes. Remember that Beerus told Goku that some universes contain gods that are more powerful than him and Whis!

I am not sure of what type of fusion they will perform (Potara or Fusion Dance), but I think that those two fusing will complete their training under Whis. It appears that his goal for them is not only to become stronger individuals, but to become stronger together as a team.

I think it goes hand in hand with the relationship between the God of Destruction (Beerus) and the God of Creation (Whis). King Kai tells Goku that the two gods are needed in order to maintain balance.

For all we know, Whis could know about a form of Fusion that is completely different from Potara Earrings or the Fusion Dance! This may result in Goku/Vegeta combo that is NOT Gogeta or Vegito!

Again, the speculations are endless! We could see a Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3 or another form of Super Saiyan obtained by Gogeta or Vegito!

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It was mentioned that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is hinted to be more powerful than Beerus at 70% (the level of power he fought Goku at during Battle of Gods). I also read that Whis stated that if Super Saiyan God Goku AND Vegeta fought together, they could potentially defeat Beerus.

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This could mean a fusion between Goku and Vegeta could EASILY defeat the God of Destruction.

Regardless of what happens, I am truly excited to see that Toriyama is blowing the dust off of the drawing board and giving the fans more Dragon Ball Z!

Now with Dragon Ball Super right around the corner, we are bound to see these Saiyans fuse at some point!

What do you think about my theory? Do you think we will ever see Goku and Vegeta fuse again? If they do fuse, could they defeat Beerus and Whis?

Dragon Ball Z: Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks

By Jeremy Carden

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Gotenks is one of the most powerful fighters in the history of the Dragon Ball franchise. This is very impressive considering the fact that he was only a child when he was “born” through the fusion of 7-year-old Goten and 8-year-old Trunks.

Sadly, we never got to see Gotenks appear in the Dragon Ball GT series; despite the fact that there were MANY opportunities for him to appear in order to fight powerful enemies.

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Fans were excited to see that “Adult Gotenks” appeared in the Japan-only arcade game called Dragon Ball Heroes. Despite the fact that it is not counted as being canon when compared to the DBZ manga, it does not matter because it has given fans a character that they have wanted to see since the end of the DB series.

It is not clear how powerful Gotenks would be as an adult and this has caused some division among fans. Some fans consider the Gotenks seen in the Majin Buu arc to be more powerful than a Gotenks formed through the fusion of an adult Goten and Trunks. This is because Goten and Trunks slacked off in their training after Kid Buu was killed with the Super Spirit Bomb.

There are a few factors that need to be examined before making a final decision, but I am going to say upfront that I believe an Adult Gotenks would be able to defeat Kid Gotenks!

People who say that Kid Gotenks would be more powerful usually jump to this conclusion based on the fact that Goten and Trunks trained much more as children than they did as adults. However, you must realize that they really didn’t train much at all as children when you really think about it.

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Go back to the Buu Saga; the “end” of their training took place when the boys spent 30 minutes inside of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to train for their fight against Super Buu. 30 minutes on the outside world equates to 7.5 days inside of the chamber. So the boys got in a good week of training before fighting Buu.

Looking at their training before that, the boys really didn’t do all that much…

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Trunks was 8-years-old and I bet that Vegeta had not been training with Trunks for too long before the Great Saiyaman Saga. While Super Saiyan Vegeta was training in 150 times gravity, we saw base Trunks struggling to walk around. Vegeta scoffs at his son saying that 150 times gravity was a man’s training level and Trunks was still a boy.

Trunks shocks him by going Super Saiyan and starts running around in the intense gravity with ease. Now we can assume that this was not the first time that Trunks had transformed because when Vegeta asked him if Goten could also go Super Saiyan, Trunks said that he could.

So we don’t know exactly when and how he first transformed, but it might have been when he was training in the Gravity Room during a solo session. Another scenario would have been during one of Goten and Trunks “play fighting” matches out in the woods near Goten’s house.

Remember Goten said that sometimes when Bulma would come to visit Chi-Chi, he and Trunks would go out into the woods and spar. It could have been during this time that Trunks transformed into a Super Saiyan, but we cannot be sure. In any case, we do know that Trunks had been training with Vegeta for a least a little while.

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Bulma says that Vegeta planned on making Trunks more powerful than Gohan which surprises the Saiyan/Human hybrid because he has been slacking off in his training for about 7 years! With that being said, I think that Vegeta might have been training Trunks for at least a year or so. He might be the Prince of Saiyans, but I doubt that Bulma would allow her son to train under the intense conditions that her husband did until he was at least at age 6 or 7.

Considering that Trunks was struggling to keep up with his father in 150 times gravity, we can possibly assume that when Vegeta actually trained with Trunks (something he did not do with Future Trunks…), the two did not train at such an intense gravity level.

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Vegeta was probably doing a solo session, but Trunks wanted to train under the same conditions as his father. With that being said, Vegeta didn’t train Trunks under such intense levels until he learned that not only was his son able to go Super Saiyan but that Trunks was only stronger than Goten “by a bit.” Another thing to remember is that while he was in the Time Chamber with Goten, Trunks tripped over himself as soon as he got into the area of the chamber that was 10 times gravity! Either he was just caught off-guard or he really hadn’t done too much gravity training himself! It is interesting to note that Goten was putting in work while he was training along and that was what made Trunks rush out to join him!

The way Vegeta reacted to that news might have hinted that he increased Trunks’ training (as well as his own) but we don’t know by how much. It seems that after learning about Goku being brought back from the dead for a day, Vegeta was excited and began training more than ever to fight his old rival.

Unlike Trunks, Goten had two training partners; Gohan and Chi-Chi. However, it could be argued that Trunks’ training was more beneficial because Vegeta was far more skilled than Goten’s instructors.

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While Gohan was studying, Chi-Chi was teaching Goten about basic martial arts and combat skills. It was during this time that Goten transformed into a Super Saiyan for the first time, but did not do so for awhile (at least in front of his mom) because she called him a monster. It stands to reason that during one of his sparring fights with Trunks, he revealed his ability to go Super Saiyan. That would explain how Trunks knew about Goten’s ability to transform just like him.

Moving onto when Gohan starts training his little brother, we see Goten getting more advanced training in terms of speed, reflexes, combat and Ki control including flight.

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The main thing holding Goten back was the fact that Gohan was splitting his time between training him and Videl. While she was around, he and Goten were holding back A LOT in terms of power along with their Super Saiyan abilities. After she would leave in the evening, the two would finally have time to go full force in their training.

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If all of their time was devoted to full-on Super Saiyan training like they did prior to Videl training with them then Goten might have been more powerful than he was in the World Tournament.

Now regardless of the level of training that the two endured before the tournament, the end result was that Trunks was just a tad bit stronger than Goten. The first piece of evidence was due to the fact that Trunks was 1 year older than Goten and that naturally made him a bit more powerful than his best friend.

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After that, the two squared off in the finals of the Junior Division of the tournament in an impressive match. It was clear that these two were very similar to their fathers in terms of combat. Trunks is the one with superior skills and a much more polished fighting style doing whatever it takes to win. Goten is more of an off-the-wall tactician and that keeps opponents more powerful than himself on their toes.

In the end, Trunks wins by “breaking the rules” that he himself set during the match; not going Super Saiyan, only using one hand or not using Ki attacks. 

He actually did all 3 of these things and that knocked Goten out of bounds!

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This kind of mirrors what Majin Vegeta did to Goku by saying that their match would be placed on hold, but “defeated” Goku with a sneak attack from behind.

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From there, the boys learned the Fusion Dance from Goku and Piccolo before going in the Time Chamber for their week of training. Their power levels did not go up too high because they were only in there for a week. However, after their training it became unclear which one of them was more powerful.

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Prior to the Time Chamber, Trunks was just a tad bit more powerful than Goten. However, the fact that Chi-Chi’s death at the hands of Super Buu (or foot because he squashed her after transforming her into an egg) took place while Goten was watching, that was the motivation that he needed in order to train more than ever to avenge her death. With that being said, we are not given any information in terms of who is stronger post-training, but we do know that they became more powerful than they were before.

Let’s take a look at their training post-Buu Saga;

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Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return! takes place 2 years after the defeat of Kid Buu. When fighting the two members of Frieza’s army, Vegeta points out that Trunks was forgetting the basics. Later on during the battle, the boys fuse but fail on their first attempt saying that they were out of practice. This shows that they were not training as much for the past 2 years.

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Fast forward 3 years later and we get to Battle of Gods. There is not too much focus on Goten and Trunks because they get a spanking from Bills as Super Gotenks and are quickly rendered unable to battle. Despite being preteens, the boys haven’t aged much and by the look of things it does not seem like they have been training much either.

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Then at the end of DBZ, we see a 17-year-old Goten training with his father. Goku defeats him with ease and that shows us that since he was with his family for 10 years, he has been focusing on helping Goten train since Gohan had become an adult with a family of his own.

Trunks (age 18), Vegeta and Bulma arrive on the scene later and it seems that Trunks has been slacking off in his training as well. Despite Goten being trained by Goku, it appears that he prefers living the life of a human teenager. He was upset that Goku made him cancel a date in order to fight in the World Tournament.

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Considering that Vegeta had to threaten Trunks by cutting his allowance in half to make him fight in the tournament we can assume that he too had become accustomed to living a normal life during the peaceful times.

So their training was pretty much diminished after the threat of Majin Buu, but they were still in shape most likely due to their fathers making them at least have a few training sessions.

Finally we get to Dragon Ball GT and again we are presented with a split between fans who debate about whether or not there was a 5 or 10 year gap between series.

Personally, I think that it was 10 years between DBZ and GT but that’s beside the point. If it was a 5 year gap that means Goten would be 22 and Trunks would be 23. For those who think it was 10 years that would make Goten 27 and Trunks 28.

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I know you could look at the way that they act in terms of Goten being someone in their early 20s going out on dates and whatnot. While Trunks is C.E.O. of Capsule Corp. but still has some of his kidlike characteristics.

In any case, the two have not trained in a long period of time. Now despite Trunks going into space with Goku and Pan to find the Blackstar Dragon Balls to save the earth and meeting all kinds of threats, Goten was said to be more powerful than Trunks.

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This was stated after Baby took over his body and it seems accurate because earlier Baby was in Trunks’ body as well and experienced firsthand his true Saiyan power when he expelled the Tuffle from his body.

So there you have it, this covers all of the training that the boys underwent as kids but lack thereof in terms of training when they became older.

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Now it is time to look at power and abilities of Gotenks, but we only have Kid Gotenks to look at here. We know that at his maximum, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was more or less equal to Super Buu.

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The only other Z-Fighter who was more powerful than Gotenks was Ultimate Gohan. You could also include Vegito as well because he is a fused character like Gotenks.

Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog.

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Individually, Goten and Trunks were powerful but they were still toddlers. They experienced more training in their childhood than when they were adults.

One of the main reasons that I think an Adult Gotenks would be far more powerful than Kid Gotenks is simple; Adult Gotenks would be older, bigger and stronger.

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I know that seems like a vague answer, but hear me out here! One of the arguments that Kid Gotenks supporters use the most is the fact that Adult Gohan (age 17 or 18) was weaker than he was as an 11-year-old due to a 7 year period when he slacked off in his training.

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Similar to Goten and Trunks, Gohan had the best training of his life when he was a child. He went through a year of training with Piccolo before he was 5, experienced many battles on Namek when he was 6, when he was 7 or 8 the little Saiyan trained for 3 years with his dad and Piccolo and finally inside of the Time Chamber, he and Goku trained for nearly a full year!

Gohan’s abilities, fighting sense and combat skills were at their peak and he had the skills to rival his father. However, after 7 years of no training whatsoever…Gohan’s power and skills dropped dramatically. It was mentioned a few times that Gohan’s abilities paled in comparison to when he was a boy fighting against Cell.

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That is why most people feel that Adult Gotenks would not be up to par with Kid Gotenks. However, it should be noted that Gohan had years and years of training before he eventually stopped. Goten and Trunks maybe had 1 or 2 years of training as children before they opted to live the life of earthlings.

Another argument that I like to make is that age brings power. I’ll admit that I do not exercise regularly as I should or stick to a strict workout routine. However, I am 22-years-old and I’m sure that I’m more powerful than I was when I was only 8! That is the big difference between Goten and Trunks when compared to Gohan.

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The boys were still toddlers when they stopped training, but Gohan was a preteen! Goten and Trunks still had a few years to grow and develop meaning that power was a plus! Gohan was only 11, but really had the body of a teenager due to the year he spent in the Time Chamber with Goku. Over the 7 year gap, he did grow but he became scrawny and weak when compared to his preteen-self. Goten and Trunks were not too muscular at the end of DBZ either, but they were more powerful than they were back in the Buu Saga.

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I will agree that their fighting sense might not be on the same level as they were in the Buu Saga, but again they were only children. Looking at how Gotenks acted when he fought (cocky and well childish) against Buu, we can agree that he was really a showoff. He was not a skilled and disciplined warrior; he was a child who had power to rival and surpass his father(s) (Goku and Vegeta).

Most of Gotenks’ attacks were techniques that came from the mind of a child. While some of his techniques seemed ridiculous, he made up for it with deadly moves like the Galactic Doughnut and the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

As an adult, I’m not sure what kind of techniques he’d use, but I’m certain that they would be on a new level of power than an 8-year-old Gotenks would never have reached.

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One final thing that I’d like to address is Super Saiyan 3. Gotenks was only able to withstand the power of Super Saiyan 3 for 5 minutes. It stands to reason that if Gotenks went Super Saiyan 3 the moment that he was formed by the Fusion Dance, not only would he only be able to hold the form for 5 minutes, but his 30 minute fusion time would be reduced due to the high amount of power he was using.

The reason that he was only able to hold the form for 5 minutes is most likely due to the fact that he was only a child and that level of power was too high to sustain in a child’s body even if he was a fused being.

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Goku is able to hold the form for much longer than 5 minutes, but even he admits that the technique takes a toll on his body especially if he is in a living body. Considering that he is an adult and an experienced warrior, it is understandable why he could hold the form for sometime before reverting back to base power.

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This was further illustrated in GT when he only held the form for a minute or two when fighting Baby Vegeta for the first time. He mentions that his adult body was more developed and could handle the power better.

I’m sure that the same could be said about an Adult Gotenks because he would have a fully developed body that could better handle the power of a Super Saiyan 3 as opposed to his child body.

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Now in terms of disadvantages, I will say that since an Adult Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks would be more powerful than a Kid Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that might actually do him more harm than good. This is because the high level of power regulating from his body might actually reduce the total amount of time that he could stay fused. So if Adult Gotenks did go Super Saiyan 3, he would have to get the job done quickly not because of his Super Saiyan 3 power exhausting before he could win, but because his fusion time as a whole might diminish sooner than he thinks.

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We all know that this was shown in GT when Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta’s fusion only lasted a total of 10 minutes before he defused back into Goku and Vegeta!

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That pretty much sums up why I think that Adult Gotenks would be the victor if he ever engaged in combat with his Buu Saga persona. It all relates to the Goten and Trunks’ training, experience and aging.

Who do you think would taste victory; Adult Gotenks of Kid Gotenks?

 

Michael Jackson Homage In Dragon Ball Z: Battle Of Gods

By Jeremy Carden

Has anyone besides me ever have one of those moments when you watch a movie or episode of a TV show dozens of times, but you finally catch a glimpse of something that you did not notice the first time?

Most people call that a “blink and you miss” situation and believe me I just had one of them!

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I was watching DBZ Battle of Gods for the 22nd time since the movie came out and I caught a glimpse of something that made me VERY happy to be a Dragon Ball fan!

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The Z-Fighters were all enjoying Bulma’s birthday party (well except for Vegeta because he was scared as a cat on the edge of a pool because Bills and Whis were there) while this was going on.

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During the scene where the Pilaf Gang is searching Capsule Corporation for the Dragon Balls, they came across a room where Bulma was storing all of the prizes for the bingo tournament she was holding. Inside of the room, you could see all kinds of expensive prizes like a castle, a very expensive jewel and a plane.

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Aside from all of those magnificent prizes, the most spectacular one of all was the complete set of Earth’s Dragonballs. Kind of interesting that the magical orbs were collected as nothing more than a grand prize for the winner of a bingo game…

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It’s no wonder that the Shadow Dragons would eventually invade the earth in Dragon Ball GT due to the extreme misuse of the orbs (I know GT is non-canon and whatnot, but I still couldn’t resist the joke).

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At least the balls would eventually be used for a good cause in the movie; informing Goku and the others how to “create” a Super Saiyan God. Wow it certainly seemed a bit convenient that the balls had already been gathered for the bingo game to save the Z-Fighters from having to venture around the globe to find them in order to ask Shenron about the legend of the Super Saiyan God. That’s the power of plot for you!

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While the Pilaf Gang stared at the balls in amazement, they were caught by Trunks and Goten. It was during this scene that the three turned around in shock.

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Looking to the left of Emperor Pilaf, I saw a white hat and jacket. I really did not think too much of this especially as a prize for a bingo game. That was until I noticed a miniature plague or stand that had a white glove to it…

At that moment, I put two and two together and realized “OMG THAT STUFF BELONGED TO THE KING OF POP MICHAEL JACKSON!!!!!

I’m a huge MJ fan and DBZ fan so to see homage being paid to the late King of Pop in one of my favorite anime series was truly an amazing moment for me.

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The white hat and jacket were probably drawn based on the style of clothing Michael had on for the short film Smooth Criminal.

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Not to mention the iconic glove is always remembered from his trademark performance of Billie Jean at the 25th Anniversary Special for Motown.

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I know this is not the first reference to Michael in the DB series. Does anyone remember King Kai’s pet monkey Bubbles?

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I don’t know if it was ever officially confirmed, but it is quite possible that his name may be a reference to Michael pet chimp, who is also named Bubbles.

Considering that the English version of Battle of Gods is coming to the U.S. this August, I’m sure that there will be fans in theaters who will notice this small homage and smile like I did.

 

Dragonball Z: My thoughts on Super Saiyan God

by Jeremy Carden

The subject of this blog is about the Super Saiyan God technique and of course the Battle of Gods movie.

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Keep in mind that I haven’t been able to see Battle of Gods since it has not been released in the U.S. Aside from speculation, I’ve received the information that I’ll present below from Youtube movie summaries, the video clips that have been released for everyone to see, Dragonball Wiki’s website and other articles online about the movie.

Not sure if he really does have these markings on his chest but they do look kind of cool!

Not sure if he really does have these markings on his chest but they do look kind of cool!

So, please keep an open mind while reading this and hopefully it will be something that will make you think about the future of the series.

Here are some of the things that I’ll be covering in my blog;

  • The origins of the Super Saiyan God
  • How strong is a Super Saiyan God?
  • Can Super Saiyan God compete with the likes of Gogeta and Vegito?
  • Similarities between Goku’s first encounters with Bills and Korin
  • How powerful is Bills?

Along with other topics to help breakdown what this technique really is. I’ll be using facts and details from Dragonball, Dragonball Z and yes even Dragonball GT.

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Something else that I’d like to point out; this is not a hate blog about the Super Saiyan God because I know the technique has gotten A LOT of hate for just being a glorified version of the Kaio-Ken by looks alone.

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Goku, have you been eating?

Honestly, when I first saw Super Saiyan God Goku the last thing on my mind to describe it was the word; epic.

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Seeing him thinner than usual was an immediate turn off in terms of the coolness of the form. I mean we all know Goku’s eating habits and for him to just look like skin and bones (with a little muscle) seemed very lackluster.

Oh my gosh, Super Saiyan God!! Oh wait...

Oh my gosh, Super Saiyan God!! Oh wait…

I mean I can see why people would generally assume it was the Kaio-Ken or an advanced level of the technique.

Seriously, it is not the first time Goku used a crimson aura power-up to fight a powerful purple opponent…

Purple bad guy...wait is that Bills?!?! Oh wait...

Purple bad guy…is that Bills?!?! Oh wait…

I wasn’t impressed by it at all; just going off of the appearance of Goku.

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The way the movie was written it seemed that GT was being “written out” by Akira Toriyama. I mean it was non-canon to begin with but still.

There were several elements that make it clear that with Battle of Gods being canon it was designed to specifically get fans to forget about the non canon Dragonball GT;

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The Pilaf Gang was turned into kids thanks to a faulty wish to be young again that they made before the events of the film.

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This means that they would not be the old relics that we saw in the beginning of GT making it to the Lookout to use the Blackstar balls.

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Also, it would eliminate Goku being turned into a child.

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Based on Sheron’s story about the Super Saiyan God, we know that there was at least ONE that appeared before the events of Battle of Gods.

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It appeared on Planet Vegeta to stop the violence of the evil Saiyans on Planet Vegeta but failed due to the form’s time limit. Given that the Saiyans as a whole were barbaric it is hard to imagine that there were at least 6 good-hearted Saiyans who would be able to help one of the 6 ascend on the legendary form.

As I mentioned in my other blog about Bardock’s link to the Saiyan and Tuffle race;

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The story King Kai told Goku about Planet Vegeta’s destruction might be linked to the Super Saiyan God. The fact that a guardian/kami of Planet Vegeta saw the evil deeds of the Saiyans and decided to stop it by destroying the planet is similar to the reason that the Super Saiyan God appeared in the first place.

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This guardian decided to use meteors to destroy the Planet Vegeta.

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The cover-up story by Frieza’s solider who contacted Vegeta while he was out on a mission said that it was a giant meteor that destroyed the planet.

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Raditz told this same story to Goku when he first arrived on Earth.

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I know in one of his (filler) flashbacks, Vegeta revealed to Raditz and Nappa that he KNEW Frieza was the one to blow up the planet.

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However, when Dodoria told him on Namek that it was Frieza who did in the Saiyans and their home world, Vegeta was SHOCKED and enraged to learn this.

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In return, he destroyed the fleeing solider as he tried to escape the Saiyan’s wrath.

Of course it is up for debate as to whether or not the Guardian in King Kai’s story even existed.

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Remember he was adamant against Goku or any of his friends from going after Frieza.

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So, he either made up the story to cover up Frieza’s hand in Planet Vegeta’s destruction, had no idea about Frieza’s dealings in the planet blowing up and was just going off of things he might have heard or he did know about the planet having an actual guardian and just assumed that he was the reason for the planet blowing up.

Now this picture has been floating around since the form was introduced;

Interesting theory

Interesting theory

It compares the Kaio-Ken to the Super Saiyan God form with some very convincing theories as to how the form was the inspiration for the Kaio-Ken.

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This actually makes sense seeing as how the Kaio-Ken was a technique that even King Kai himself was unable to master.

However, it was something that Goku was not only able to master BUT take it 10x higher than King Kai allowed him too.

He originally said not to go above an x2 Kaio-Ken.

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Goku had to take it up to an x3 in order to overpower Vegeta

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Then he went to an x4 to win their beam collision

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Later on after training in 100x gravity on his way to Namek, it seems that he increased his durability and stamina enough to withstand a x10 Kaio-Ken

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Finally, he was able to utilize a x20 Kaio-Ken however it only lasted for seconds when used against Frieza; most likely due to Goku being in a damaged condition when using it

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Then another fight (filler) introduced a new concept; using the Kaio-Ken while in the Super Saiyan stated called the “Super Kaio-Ken!”

It doubled Goku’s Full Power Super Saiyan strength making him 100x stronger than his base form; basically the equivalent of Goku if he were a Super Saiyan 2.

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However as with the x20 Kaio-Ken, he could only hold the form for a few seconds.

Another interesting piece of information is Pikkon’s special technique;

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The Burning Shoot attack

Considering that King Kai’s “rival” was West Kai, it makes sense that he would not want to be outdone and decided to teach his student(s) a power boosting technique.

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It stands to reason that East Kai’s students being so weak compared to West and King Kai’s students, they wouldn’t have been able to master the technique like Goku or Pikkon did.

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Not to mention South Kai didn’t exactly have powerful fighters in his galaxy to brag about…

There are some similarities and differences between the Kaio-Ken and Burning Shoot techniques;

  • Goku is surrounded by a crimson aura
  • Pikkon is surrounded is consumed in flames
  • Pikkon’s power-up seemed only momentary
  • Goku’s Kaio-Ken is only momentary; depending on the durability of his body and the level of the technique he is using it at
  • Both techniques drastically increase the user’s speed, power, defense, etc.

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It is unknown if Pikkon can increase the Burning Shoot to multiple levels but regardless as to whether he can or not, he is naturally powerful and with that technique this guy is truly a contender for the Super Saiyans!

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He was more powerful than a Full Power Super Saiyan Goku!

He only lost because the Warp Kamehameha knocked him out of the ring.

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If it was a fight to the finish instead of an arena knockout then I’d say Pikkon would have won.

It doesn’t surprise me that the move is different than the Kaio-Ken, West Kai probably figured that if he were going to teach his students the same move as King Kai, he’d want to add his own special touch to it.

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One last thing about Pikkon’s lessons under West Kai, if he did learn the Burning Shoot from West Kai then it stands to reason that he also learned the Thunder Flash from his as well.

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It can be seen as West Kai’s ultimate attack like how the Spirit Bomb is King Kai’s ultimate move taught to his students.

Both the Burning Shoot and Thunder Flash are fire element techniques.

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Also, West Kai said not to use the Thunder Flash unless he was far away from his opponent in order to not burn up the audience.

However, this didn’t happen…

Kind of like how Goku disobeyed King Kai’s warning of not going above a x2 Kaio-Ken

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Pikkon did the same by using the Thunder Flash while close up…

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Arqua’s ultimate attack was Water-based due to him being a creature that excels in water. It seems that he is possibly East Kai’s greatest fighter so it stands to reason that teaching him a Fire-element technique would be useless

Looks like a Cell/Frieza fusion doesn't it?

Looks like a Cell/Frieza fusion doesn’t it?

South Kai’s ultimate fighter is either Torbie

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Or his new student Papoi

Whether or not they knew a Super Saiyan God-like technique to temporary boost their power is unknown

Now with Planet Vegeta being in King Kai’s portion of guardianship, if the other 3 Kais did know about the SS God, it would have probably been by them hearing about it somehow or sensing the form’s great power or something like that.

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That would be the only reason they would all try to come up with their own variations of the technique in order to power-up their students the best way that they could

Overall, this is an interesting theory and it is up to personal opinion as to whether or not you feel that it is credible.

Aside from the Kaio-Ken, there is another form that some people compare Super Saiyan God to;

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False Super Saiyan

This is where we look into territory that is also VERY believable!

In Lord Slug, we see Goku in a really tight spot against the Super Namek and he is badly beaten.

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When Slug was about to deliver the final blow, Goku catches his hand and looks like a possessed man looking for blood.

He powers up with a red/golden aura and charges in easily beating up the Namek.

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To me it seemed that Goku was SO close to ascending to the Super Saiyan level. It seemed that he had the right motivation because he powered up due to his desire to save his friends and family from dying of the Terra-freeze planet created by Lord Slug.

Even King Kai questions if Goku had in fact become the Super Saiyan of Legend. That means that he had heard of the legend of the Super Saiyan before!

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Moving forward, it doesn’t seem that he knew about the Super Saiyan God because when Bills and Wiss asked King Kai and Goku about the form neither of them knew what they were talking about.

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I suppose that he must have heard about the legend of the Super Saiyan that was told down the lineage of the Frost Demon clan from Chilled to Frieza and his family.

That being said, we can rule out the possibility of Super Saiyan God being what King Kai was referring to in Lord Slug.

The real question that I would like to have answered; how strong is the Super Saiyan God transformation/form?

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Based on summaries on the movie itself, Goku was using 80% against Bills. He was holding his own but it was clear that Bills had the advantage even cutting the Saiyan god’s cheek.

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So, eventually Goku turned it up to 100% but it was still not enough to overcome the God of Destruction; we never see Goku draw blood from Bills.

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In the end, it is revealed that Bills was only using 70% of his maximum in order to defeat Goku.

That left him in an exhausted state with only 30% left in him, but it can be argued that he was not even in a condition where he could access that much of his power.

When he decided to destroy the earth after winning against Goku, he charged up a Ki blast to put an end to the planet but…

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…it was only enough to destroy a small rock!

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Now let’s say that it was in fact his 30% power; that wouldn’t be more powerful than an Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta (Super Vegeta) because if you remember his Final Flash attack was MORE than enough to destroy the plant.

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So, was his Galick Gun back in the Saiyan Saga but I don’t think I’d sell Bills that short in terms of power.

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I mean think about Frieza when we went to his 100% power;

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He was exhausted and even at 100% his power was falling rapidly due to his 50%-70% self getting beaten by Super Saiyan Goku.

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The same can be said of Bills because he had been running around fighting Goku in that long battle that it is understandable that he wouldn’t be able to concentrate enough Ki to blow up Earth.

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I mean Frieza tried blowing up Namek (in a weakened condition) and we all know how well that went; 5 minutes? Please…

Bills is reported to be the strongest character in the 7th Universe; the DB universe that we know of.

Bills; Wait, so you are a guy?

Bills; Wait, so you are a guy?

His power is second only to his attendant and martial arts instructor; Wiss

A lot of fans were upset to know that a purple cat is more powerful than their Saiyan favorites; Super Saiyan Gogeta and Vegito

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Yes, it is the time! The time to determine how Bills and Super Saiyan God Goku stack up to the titans of fusion in the DB universe!

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Super Saiyan 3 is 400 times more powerful than a base form Saiyan.

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At the beginning of the movie, Bills made SS3 Goku look like Yamcha because he was unable to land a single blow on Bills and he was taken out with one pressure point karate chop to the neck.

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Call me a girl one more time Bills!

This was similar to how Wiss knocked out Bills at the end of the movie to make him sleep for another 3 years.

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Super Saiyan God is said to be more powerful than a SS3 but we don’t know by how much. Considering that it took Bills 70% of his maximum to take out SS God Goku while it appeared that it took little to no effort in order to defeat SS3 Goku it can be assumed that it is far more powerful than a SS3.

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When we look at some minor details, we can see that SS3 Goku vs. Bills was similar to Goku’s first encounter with Korin another cat-like deity.

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Goku had just experience a near-death beating from Mercenary Tao.

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In order to increase his power for their next encounter, he climbed up Korin’s Tower in order to get his hands on the Sacred Water

SACRED WATER?!?!?!!

SACRED WATER?!?!?!!

No, Garlic Jr. not THAT Sacred Water…

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THIS SACRED WATER; that turned out to be nothing more than ordinary tap water.

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During his first attempts to get the water from the craft cat, Goku was unable to land a finger on the elusive kitty. Even with the Afterimage, Korin was easily able to outmaneuver the kid Saiyan.

Finally, he was able to get the bottle thanks to learning how to read and anticipate his opponent’s movement.

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The end result; Goku tripled his power by learning to sense his opponent’s moves, climbing up the tower twice to increase his speed remember Korin dropped his Dragonball on purpose to make him climb up again (much faster than the first time) and all of that made Goku a better fighter in just 3 days.

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He was able to overpower Tao!

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This made the mercenary go up the tower himself but was tricked by the crafty cat with plain water and made him think that he had gained more power by breaking one of the pillars with his cane to make it look like the Dodon Ray had done the job.

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He was able to land some hits on Goku…

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BUT in the end, he met his demise by his own bomb

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However, he returned as a cyborg looking for revenge

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Only to be defeated by Tien

He appeared in some DBZ filler but that is not important to the point that I’m trying to make.

Now, let’s compare Goku’s training with Korin to his first fight with Bills;

  • Goku was up against a cat-like god
  • He was unable to land a single punch
  • He was defeated and outmaneuvered with ease

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Something else that is important to remember is that Goku was unable to sense Bills’ movements just like he was unable to read Korin’s (until he took Korin’s words to heart and learned how to do it).

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King Kai said that because they were “gods” Goku was unable to sense the godly energy signature that was coming from Bills or Wiss.

That was until he became a “god” himself after achieving Super Saiyan God

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In order to estimate how powerful SS God is compared to SS3 we can look at Vegito (base form) vs. Buuhan (Super Buu; Gohan Absorbed).

The fused Saiyan was easily able to overpower the Majin.

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He was able to take whatever Buu could dish out and he was even able to beat him to a pulp

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However, Buu was unable to scratch Vegito even with several melee assaults. The Saiyan smirked saying that the only reason he was willingly taking damage was to test out his new body.

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It was clear that he was able to generate enough Ki to kill Buu and this was seen with his Final Kamehameha (or Big Bang Kamehameha depending on what source you use to look up DB information).

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After Buu used his giant energy ball that was more than enough to crack the planet in half

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It was clear that Vegito was more than capable of defeating his powerful foe.

By breaking down Buuhan’s power we can determine how much more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3 he is; (this is my personal opinion based on the show itself)

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Super Buu alone was more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku

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Mystic Gohan was more powerful than Goku since he was effortlessly able to defeat Super Buu

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Piccolo who I measure to be around the power of an Ascended Super Saiyan along with Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans would make them around the power range of a Super Saiyan 2 and that is ¼ the power of a Super Saiyan 3.

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That being said when you add them all together; Buuhan is higher than 2 SS3s put together but lower than 3 of them.

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Meaning that base form Vegito is AT LEAST 3 or 4 times more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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Now, when he decided to take it up a notch by going Super Saiyan that increased his already incredible power level by 50!

I mean he was able to take on Buu even in base form like the Old Kai said; there was no need to go Super Saiyan due to the Potara Fusion being more than enough to take on Buu.

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When he went Super Saiyan, he was able to make Buu look like Hercule fighting Cell.

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The question still remains however; how much stronger is SS God Goku when compared to his SS3 persona?

I think Vegito and/or Gogeta would help with this illustration.

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Alright, sources confirm that SS4 Gogeta is DOZENS of times more powerful than a regular or non-fused SS4.

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Meaning that Goku and Vegeta would not have a prayer of winning against their SS4 fused counterpart!

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At first, I thought that the only reason this was true was because Gogeta was a SS4 BUT if you look at Vegito for example and his SS levels when compared to Goku or Vegeta’s it does make a lot of sense.

Earlier, I mentioned that in base form Vegito is at least 3 times more powerful than SS3 Goku.

Let’s take the SS multiplying table and see what we come up with when comparing a SS3 Vegito to a SS3 Goku;

  • Vegito base form = 3 SS3 Goku(s)
  • Super Vegito (50x base power) = 150 SS3 Goku(s)
  • SS2 Vegito (2x Super Saiyan power) = 300 SS3 Goku(s)
  • SS3 Vegito (4x Super Saiyan 2 power) = 1200 SS3 Goku(s)

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So, with that being said a SS3 Vegito is at least 100 dozen times stronger than SS3 Goku! I know these numbers seem ridiculous but seriously, they do make sense. It just took me forever to realize it because I’ve never calculated it before.

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I mean it is confirmed that Bills IS stronger than Super Gogeta or Super Vegito but we don’t know by how much. Remember it took 70% of his power to best SS God Goku but we don’t know if he’d need to use more in order to defeat either one of these Super Saiyan fusions.

Super Saiyan God is powerful but I don’t know if it would give Goku a power increase that is 100s of times more powerful than his SS3 form.

And remember when they say Bills is more powerful than either fused being, it is only measured by their SS transformations not by their ascended SS forms!

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Let’s try another equation but this time let’s just Gogeta. In V-Jump his power is measured to be 2,500,000,000. Personally, I think this is nowhere near his maximum but let’s just use this number. Also, it is said that Super Vegito is in the power level range of a Super Saiyan 4.

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These 2 Super Saiyan fusions are said to be close in power so with that in mind for simplicity’s sake we’ll say that Super Saiyan Gogeta is equal to one Super Saiyan 4.

  • Super Saiyan Gogeta = 1 SS4
  • SS2 Gogeta = 2 SS4s
  • SS3 Gogeta = 8 SS4s
  • SS4 Gogeta = 80 SS4s

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That is at least 6 dozen times more powerful than an un-fused SS4. I know that is way below Super Saiyan 3 Vegito’s measurements compared to Super Saiyan 3 Goku but remember that I feel 2 and a half billion is not Gogeta’s max as a Super Saiyan not to mention his regular SS power is equal to 1 SS4 when compared to base form Vegito who is equal to at least 3 SS3(s).

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Goku and Vegeta have proven time after time that as individuals they are both capable of incredible feats.

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But when you put them together, they make even the most powerful villains in the series seem like nothing.

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They beat them up and you can tell that they are just fooling around knowing that they could defeat the likes of Buuhan or Omega Shenron in less than 5 seconds if they wanted to.

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Bills is powerful but does he have what it takes to content with the likes of a SS3 Gogeta or Vegito?

My guess is no, but of course that does not say anything about Wiss.

I'm the strongest in the universe!

I’m the strongest in the universe!

We know he is more powerful than Bills but we don’t know HOW powerful. Seeing him take out Bills as easily as the cat-god took out SS3 Goku at the beginning of the film makes me shudder about his true power.

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Yes, Bills was in an exhausted state when he was attacked by Wiss, but who is to say that he couldn’t know out Bills that easily even if he was at 100%.

Something else to consider is the power of these other gods from the other 11 universes and if they are more powerful than Bills then it is possible that we might get to see things that we haven’t before;

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SS2 Vegito and Gogeta

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SS3 Vegito and Gogeta

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Even a SS God Fusion

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Or as I mentioned before; an advanced stage of SS God that has yet to be tapped into!

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As a matter of fact having Gogeta appear in a canon movie rather than the non-canon Fusion Reborn would FINALLY make him canon after so many years!

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Another good question that fans have been contemplating is whether or not Super Saiyan God is it. What I mean by this is; does this form/technique have more behind it like a higher transformation that Goku and the others do not know about yet.

I think it is possible.

Why?

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Remember Goku and the others ascended past the normal SS transformation

Well, let’s take a look at some other “temporary” techniques and forms that allow increased stats for the user but were then trumped in power by the introduction of an even more powerful method of powering up that allows either the same or more power but with less drawbacks to the user;

Kaio-Ken was introduced as a temporary power-up

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The drawbacks depend on how powerful the person using it is or the condition of their body when using it

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It was then trumped by the Super Saiyan transformation which allows a 50x power up as opposed to the Kaio-Ken only being x20 (or at least from what we saw in the series)

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Super Saiyan 3 was a temporary power-up

I estimate Goku being able to hold the form was at least 10 minutes

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Gotenks can hold it for 5 minutes

And it all boils down to whether the user is dead or living due to the energy consumption of the form because of the incredible power and speed that it grants the person who uses it

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Goku can use the technique but…

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It leaves him in an exhausted state after he reverts back to his base form

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It was trumped by Super Saiyan 4 which is 10 times stronger than a SS3

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The Fusion Dance is a temporary power-up

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It only lasts for 30 minutes

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Or even less depending on the power of the fused being; SS4 Gogeta only lasted 10 minutes

Trunks; Are you serious?

Trunks; Are you serious?

Not to mention that it requires an hour recharge time before the users can fuse again

Say what?!?

Say what?!?

It has complex synchronized movements that must be done perfectly

If not there is the risk of a failed fusion;

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One is fat

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And the other is old and frail

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It was trumped by the Potara Earring method of fusion

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Unlike the Fusion Dance, it only requires the users to put the earrings on opposite ears to instantly fuse them together

You mean I'm stuck this way!?!

You mean I’m stuck this way!?!

The main drawback is the fusion being permanent

So, with all of that being said it is possible that Super Saiyan God is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of a new found method of power.

I mean look at how someone achieves the power begin with; it takes the energy of 5 pure-hearted Saiyans to make one of them transform

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As Piccolo pointed out during their first attempt at helping Goku, it is more than simply gathering Ki and making Goku stronger it takes something more.

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That reminded me of Gohan trying to learn how to go Super Saiyan and Goku pointing out that it took more than raising Ki in order to transform it takes the right motivation.

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With a fiery eruption of power, the end result is a smooth and calm aura is somewhat of a quiet storm of the true power within finally being unlocked.

I want to become a Super Saiyan God too!!!!!

I want to become a Super Saiyan God too!!!!!

Bills did mention that Goku and Vegeta were eventually going to become formidable opponents in the near future. I mean in the movie, Vegeta’s rage pushed his power level as a Super Saiyan above Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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Remember that Goku promised Vegeta that the next time it became necessary, he was going to be the one who became a Super Saiyan God

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Speaking on temporary or lackluster methods of powering up, Korin’s Sacred Water was just plain tap water. However, when King Piccolo arrived he revealed that there was something called the Ultra Divine Water.

If a person were to drink it (and survive) it would grant them incredible power and strength.

Goku drank it and survived!

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It was enough to raise his power and senses dramatically

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This allowed him to raise his power equally to King Piccolo (both were clocked at 260) and ultimately he was able to defeat him

Again, there are some similarities between Super Saiyan God and these other methods of powering up with one method seeming temporary or small but it is trumped by something else discovered down the line

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One thing that confused me during the movie was that Goku’s time as a Super Saiyan God ran out but he was still able to hold his own against Bills

According to DB Wiki, Goku had felt what it was like to have that god-like power and he had gotten used to the feeling. That explains how he was able to continue fighting as a regular Super Saiyan but still give Bills a run for his money.

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Goku saying that he had gotten used to the form and was still able to access its incredible power was similar to Cell regenerating from his self-destruction in his Perfect form despite blowing himself up as Semi-Perfect Cell.

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He mentioned that his cells had gotten a taste of his perfect power and stored it away allowing him to once again access it when needed resulting in Super Perfect Cell.

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When Bills was about to destroy Goku and the earth with his ultimate attack it seemed that all was lost

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Goku eventually blacked out but similar to his vision fighting Frieza, he thought about his loved ones and friends which gave him the power he needed to temporary turn into a SS God again and absorb the attack

Similar to his temporary use of x20 Kaio-Ken against Frieza

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It left him in an exhausted state and he had no choice but to surrender the battle. That begs the question as to whether or not he would have ended the match in a draw if he didn’t surrender because remember Bills himself was exhausted

Do I believe this movie will have a sequel?

Yes, given how successful it was in Japan due to promotional tactics and how the fans responded.

I'm a black man that loves chicken and DBZ. Put them together and you have a masterpiece!

I’m a black man that loves chicken and DBZ. Put them together and you have a masterpiece!

Not to mention the way the fight ended left it open to a sequel or the series being revived.

I mean when have we seen Goku lose to a villain and that be the end of it?

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I mean the only time I can remember him surrendering during a fight was against Cell because he KNEW he couldn’t win.

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Even then we soon found out that it was only because he knew that Gohan could handle it.

With his promise that Vegeta would be the next SS God and Bills waking up again in 3 years, there is no reason why there should not be another movie.

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Not to mention Bills informed Goku of 11 other universes in existence that contain Gods of Destruction as well; according to some sources it is said that Bills is the WEAKEST of the 12 gods and that says a lot about the possibilities of these other gods being introduced in the future.

I’m sure if Goku knows about them there would be not stopping him or Vegeta from going out to fight against stronger opponents.

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I mean Vegeta is one who never lets Goku gets off on a promise that he makes. Remember when Goku came back from the dead for a day but had to leave the tournament to fight the threat of Majin Buu?

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Vegeta followed him because he and Goku were matched up to fight in the tounrmanet and Vegeta’s only purpose of entering was to fight Goku.

So, if Goku goes off to the other universes to face these gods then it would not surprise me if Vegeta went along with him.

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Something else that I’ve always pondered was whether or not Akira came up with the idea of Super Saiyan God BEFORE the events of ScrewAttack’s Death Battle that caused a lot of controversy due to Superman defeating Goku.

Superman Prime; God-Like Status

Superman Prime; God-Like Status

It could be his way of saying; “Top this Superman!!”

According to DB Wiki, during an interview with one of the movie’s character designers; the original concept for Super Saiyan God had the form being more muscular, wearing a cape, and with a hairstyle in-between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4.

Let’s see;

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Superman has a cape

Inconsistent in muscle size but he is muscular

Inconsistent in muscle size but he is muscular

Superman is muscular

This is what we want!

This is what we want!

And it would be interesting to see Goku with a mid-way hairstyle between the two Super Saiyan forms.

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Really, I can see how it can be speculated that this was Akira’s “revenge” for the Death Battle results.

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I must admit that there is one more thing about the Super Saiyan God that makes me both cringe and also gives me hope that Goku will “ascend” to the next level of Super Saiyan God (if there is one) or just reach a higher power in general; Goku did NOT reach Super Saiyan God on his own!

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It took the power of 5 other Saiyans to help him reach it. If I remember correctly, when Bills asked him what it felt like being a god, Goku literally just said that it wasn’t satisfying because it was something that he could not reach on his own and it took the power of others to make him ascend.

Maybe Goku will find his own SS God power someday

Maybe Goku will find his own SS God power someday

THIS is the Goku I like just hating to reach a power that he feels is undeserved, I mean when I heard that he used the Dragonballs to learn about how to ascend that just made he hate SS God even more!

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If you ask me going Super Saiyan was the only time he “needed help” that was when he needed an emotional experience strong enough to help him break the barrier and transform.

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Seeing Piccolo shot with a Death Beam meant for him

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And finally seeing his best friend (who couldn’t be revived twice) die before his eyes is what made him ascend

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Going SS2 and SS3 was really more about training and looking deep inside to reach the power to transform; he reached both forms while he did his intense training sessions on Grand Kai’s planet. Seeing him being able to transform to SS2 at will unlike Gohan who needed the right motivation kind of proves that even if Goku DID need the right motivation he was able to control it and just ascend to the form when need while SS3 he told Goten and Trunks was simply looking inside to reach the form.

True, it took emotional factors to help Gohan transform but remember in Goku’s flashback in the Time Chamber, it was due to their 20 hour non-stop training session along with Gohan”s refusal to give up that helped him true Super Saiyan 2.

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He was only able to hold the form for a few seconds before passing out but if you ask me it was due to him being in such a weakened state that he was unable to fully transform

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SS4 just needed him to gain control as a Golden Ape; thanks to Pan in order to transform

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If Super Saiyan God is meant to be a counter to Superman or Superman-Prime then I am a bit disappointed.

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I mean the Justice League doesn’t have to surround Superman in order for him to gather power

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He just needs the sun

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Goku doesn’t need an outside stimulus to get more powerful; unless you count Super Saiyan 4 because he needs a moon or orbiting planet to gain Blutz Waves in order to hold the form

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Unlike Vegeta, who needed to rely on a machine because he was scientifically able to re-grow his tail but once his body runs out of Blutz Waves he reverts back to base form and doesn’t have his tail anymore

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The only way I’ll find it somewhat acceptable is for Goku to fuse with Vegeta to gain more power instead of needing everyone else to help him

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I mean against Kid Buu he REFUSED to fuse because he believed it would not be fair to fight an un-fused being and due to Saiyan Pride he and Vegeta opted to fight alone rather than together

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I’m sure he felt the same way fighting Bills who was just an un-fused god of great power.

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I mean Buuhan was Super Buu fused with his friends and sons, Cell was fused with Androids and all of the Z-Fighter’s DNA samples and Omega Shenron was all 7 Shadow Dragons put together! So getting outside power or fusion was understandable because he was fighting a fused being himself.

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So, what do you think of my evaluation? Do you think there is some truth behind it or similar to the picture above, do you think it is ridiculous?

In any case, it is always fun to speculate these kinds of subjects about this incredible series.

If Bills DOES get to fight a rematch with Goku do you think he would win?

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Remember he is out of commission for at least 3 years giving Goku and the others time to train.

Bad boy(s)!

Bad boy(s)!

Can he put a good spanking to these Saiyans who are breaking the boundaries of power ranking among the gods themselves?

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Hopefully we will learn more about Bills, Wiss, Goku and the Super Saiyan God form in the new Battle of Z game and when the movie finally does comes to the U.S.

Please feel free to leave any thoughts that you have in the comment section along with things that you think I might have missed and would help with figuring out the power and possible advanced stages of the Super Saiyan God.