Dragon Ball Super: Is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 4?

By Jeremy Carden

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Since Battle of Gods, DBZ fans have been debating about Super Saiyan 4 vs. Super Saiyan God.

With the new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation revealed, the debated has sparked even more controversy. Despite the ongoing debate between fans, there has been no clear definitive answer as to which form is superior.

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Most fans are quick to say that it does not matter how powerful Super Saiyan 4 is because GT is not canon. Not to mention with Dragon Ball Super on the horizon, it is set to “erase” GT from existence. I will get into my thoughts on that in another blog, but for now the focus will be on which Super Saiyan transformation is superior.

It has never been fully established how powerful these new forms are when compared to the standard Super Saiyan forms. Which forms am I referring to?

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These 3 below:

  • Super Saiyan God
  • Saiyan beyond God
  • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

Here is what we do know about the standard Super Saiyan forms:

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  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times more powerful than base form
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan (100 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 (400 times base form)
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 (4000 times base form)

The missing factor in all of this involves how much more powerful Super Saiyan God is when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

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We know that Beerus took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with a simple flick to the forehead, and a well placed karate chop to a pressure point on Goku’s neck.

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However, Beerus tried this same karate chop on Super Saiyan God Goku, but it failed to work! This shows us that Goku’s power has increased to astounding new heights!

It was one of those blink-and-you-miss moments during the beginning of their battle.

In the end, 70% Beerus was able to defeat 80% Super Saiyan God Goku; remember that Goku never fought at 100% with his new power.

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Saiyan beyond God is a “form” that Goku and Vegeta reach after the events of Battle of Gods, and during their time as students under Whis.

A Saiyan prodigy who transforms into Super Saiyan God will revert back to base form after the Super Saiyan God form time limit runs out. However, they will absorb the power of the Super Saiyan God into their base form. This will result in the Saiyan becoming a Saiyan beyond God.

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It reminds me of Ultimate Gohan because in his “base form” he has far more power than he ever did as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The reason I say “base form” is because as Ultimate Gohan his outer appearance barely changes from his regular appearance.

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When it comes to Saiyan beyond God vs. the appearance of base Goku or Vegeta, the only change is the color of their aura. It becomes more of a milky white color when compared to their standard base form aura.

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When a Saiyan beyond God has access to the Super Saiyan transformation…they can become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

It is unknown how much more powerful this makes a Saiyan beyond God, or how much more powerful this form is when compared to a Super Saiyan God.

Most fans are quick to assume that just like the standard Super Saiyan transformation; it increases a Saiyan’s power 50 times over the power of his base power. In this case, “base power” is considered Saiyan beyond God.

Wait, does that mean a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God?

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Saiyan beyond God is basically a Saiyan in base form that has mastered or absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into their body right?

Although it is not official, I can see why most fans would assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to a Super Saiyan God by 50 times.

However, the Super Saiyan multiplier scale seems to conflict with Akira Toriyama’s own power scale for the gods.

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He stated his own personal belief on the power differences between the Battle of Gods characters below:

Super Saiyan God Goku is about a “6”, Beerus a “10” and Whis about a “15”.

To me this never made much sense, and please do not think that I am debating the word of the official creator of Dragon Ball Z. However, the key phrase here is that these levels are Akira’s “own personal belief.”

With that being said, I think it is fair for me (or any other fan for that matter) to have my own personal belief as well.

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As I mentioned before, Beerus was only fighting at 70% power when he battled Super Saiyan God Goku. The Saiyan never truly fought at 100% with his new godly power. His time limit in the form ran out before he could kick things up to full power.

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True, Beerus mentioned that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, and from there transformed into a Super Saiyan. That explained why he was able to fight on par with Beerus for some time, and he did not even notice that his Super Saiyan God fuel had burned out until Beerus mentioned it to him.

Some may argue that Goku fought Beerus as a Saiyan beyond God after his Super Saiyan God power fizzled out like a flat can of soda.

Others might mention that Goku fighting Beerus as a Full Power Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God was a potential foreshadowing of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan!

Both are valid points, and I think they are worth mentioning.

Now here is where my opinion is slightly different than Akira’s own personal belief. If my math is mistaken, please feel free to let me know in the comment section below (and be respectful because we are all human, and mistakes can be made).

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If Beerus (at 70% power) was fighting Super Saiyan God Goku (at 80% power), wouldn’t this imply that Beerus is at best only 10% more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku?

That conflicts with Goku being a 6, and Beerus being a 10. The gap of 4 seems to imply much more than a 10% difference in strength. My opinion is that Akira did not write Battle of Gods with the intention of having an exact measuring system of power levels.

Remember that they were only introduced into the series so the characters and fans would come to realize how useless they really were.

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Considering that Trunks at level 5 was the last power level scanned in the series, I am sure that we can assume that in the interview, Akira did not have an exact figure in his head regarding the power of the gods. We just know that Whis is more powerful than Beerus, and Beerus is more powerful than Goku.

To me, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) was not as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. I say this because Goku was experiencing the power for the very first time, and he did not have full mastery over his new power yet.

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After training with Whis, I suspect the Saiyan beyond God version of Goku is superior to even his Super Saiyan God form from Battle of Gods (to a certain extent).

We then find out that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically a Super Saiyan fighting with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Wait, does that mean Goku could become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3?

I am not going to go down that rabbit hole because we could be going back and forth about this for an eternity. If Goku could indeed reach those forms then as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3, his power would be 400 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God!

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Now to get back on track, Saiyan beyond God is superior to Super Saiyan God in the sense that this is a base form Saiyan that has mastered the Super Saiyan God transformation.

What does this mean?

It means that base form Goku and Vegeta can fight with the power of a Super Saiyan God, but the time limit of the godly form is no longer a handicap.

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Again a comparison can be made to Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is allowed to fight with his maximum power without his Ki supply being quickly drained like a Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the next stage of a superior Super Saiyan God because it also allows a Saiyan to fight with the power of the Super Saiyan God, but without any sort of time limit handicap.

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I know we have covered a lot of ground so far, but let’s do a quick recap just to be sure we are on the same page.

Saiyan beyond God is the base form of a Saiyan that has now mastered and retained the power of a Super Saiyan God. Any Saiyan that is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan can take their Saiyan beyond God stage to the level of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Both of these incarnations of a Saiyan can be considered superior in power to the Super Saiyan God transformation.

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Moving onto GT, although it was never officially stated; Goku in base form is said to be as powerful as he was at the Super Saiyan 3 level in DBZ (specifically in the Buu Saga, not the 10 year gap between the death of Kid Buu and the departure of Goku with Uub).

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This made me cringe as a child when I heard this because I was difficult to believe that Kid Goku (GT) was on par with the Super Saiyan 3 that we had seen fighting with Kid Buu!

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However, most fans associate Goku’s power to Super Saiyan 3 because of his statement to General Rilldo about the Machine Mutant being more powerful than even Majin Buu.

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Goku actually fights on par (and even has the upper hand for a good portion of the fight) with Rilldo, and that is why most fans say he was at the power of a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It is also worth mentioning that this is in reference to Rilldo’s first form, and not his other 2 transformation that make Goku power up to Super Saiyan 1 which makes him 50 times more powerful than before.

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Things can get extremely complicated when thinking about a base form Goku being on par with his Super Saiyan 3 form from DBZ.

Think of it this way:

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Kid Goku (GT) in base form = Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Buu Saga.

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This would mean GT Goku is 400 times the power of base power Goku from the Buu Saga!

What does this mean in terms of the Super Saiyan multipliers when applied to GT Goku?

  • Super Saiyan 1 is 50 times base power
  • Super Saiyan 2 is twice the power of Super Saiyan 1
  • Super Saiyan 3 is four times the power of Super Saiyan 2
  • Super Saiyan 4 is ten times the power of Super Saiyan 3

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Meaning that Super Saiyan 4 Goku in GT is 4,000 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga!

Yes, I find this mind blowing as well because it all goes back to what Vegeta from the Team Four Star Abridged series of DBZ said about power levels:

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Alright, at this point the question arises as to which form of Goku would come out on top if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan met Super Saiyan 4.

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I am willing to bet that in terms of power alone…the winner would be Super Saiyan 4.

Hear me out on this:

We know that Super Saiyan God is more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, but we do not know by how much. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is speculated (and keep in mind that it is not official) to be 50 times the power of a Saiyan beyond God, and this “form” is literally a base form Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Fans speculate Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to be 50 times the power of a Super Saiyan God.

The reason I feel that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is more powerful is simply because a base form Goku that is equal in power to a Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku is just insane to think about because he gets a 4,000 times power increase at Super Saiyan 4.

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I will say that we do know Saiyan beyond God Goku is more powerful than GT base form Goku.

Why?

It has been said many times that Saiyan beyond Goku is basically Super Saiyan God Goku (just without the drastic change in appearance), and that would mean his power is much higher than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!

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However, if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is indeed only 50 times the power of Saiyan beyond God (or Super Saiyan God), I feel that it goes without saying that a 50-fold power increase would not be able to matchup to a Super Saiyan 4 GT Goku.

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Super Saiyan GT Goku alone is already 50 times the power of Super Saiyan 3 DBZ Goku, which increases to 100 times as a Super Saiyan 2, and 400 times as a Super Saiyan 3…

I do not think that Super Saiyan God is that much of a power-up when compared to Super Saiyan 3.

If Goku were to fully master his training under Whis in order to become a perfect warrior, he would have an advantage over Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

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Remember that Whis pointed out Goku’s main flaw as being too relaxed in battle, and that leaves him open to attack. This can lead to his defeat by a weaker opponent, and we saw this happen when Sorbet blasted him through the heart with his ring laser!

Can you imagine a Goku that was flawless in combat? True, Super Saiyan 4 is more powerful, but that version of Goku would not have the training of Whis to back him up!

I am keeping “GT Goku” and “Battle of Gods Goku” as separate entities during this fight.

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Some fans are probably reading this and would consider the fight to be over in a matter of seconds! I mean Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would just need to cut off Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s tail!

Yes, I know that would be a way of ending the fight very quickly. However, who would want to see that as the ending of such an epic battle?

I know that I would not want this battle between Super Saiyans to be over before it begun due to Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s main handicap.

Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan are completely different levels. I mean Super Saiyan 4 seems to fit into the same spectrum as the first 3 Super Saiyan levels.

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However, Super Saiyan God is in a league of its own. It is a being of such divine energy and power that it cannot be sensed by “lesser beings” through the use of a Ki signature. I do not think that this means Super Saiyan God is automatically more powerful than Super Saiyan 4 (because in GT, it is mentioned on more than one occasion by other characters that Goku’s Ki is incredible in the form; meaning “lesser beings” can sense his presence), but it means that it is in a different realm of power.

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Super Saiyan God is a powerful form, but until we are officially given the stats on how much more powerful it is than a Super Saiyan 3; this debate will most likely continue on.

Which form do you think is more powerful?

Like what you read? Be sure to follow my blog, and you will be able to read my past blogs about the Dragon Ball series! Also LIKE my Dragon Ball Z Facebook page: Vegeta Is The Best. On that page, I discuss many other Dragon Ball related topics and theories about the franchise! Be sure to pass it along to your friends, and I look forward to your thoughts in the comment section below. 

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Dragonball Z Theory Warp Kamehameha or Final Flash: Which Move Was More Impressive Against Perfect Cell?

By Jeremy Carden

The trademark attacks of Goku and Vegeta inflicted a lot of damage to the Perfect Android known as Cell.

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Goku used his Warp Kamehameha Wave against him in the Cell Games and Vegeta launched his Final Flash right after Cell reached his Perfect Form.

Though it is has never been determined which attack got the better of Perfect Cell. When you look at both attacks carefully and the situation that the Saiyans were in along with Cell’s reaction to the attack, there is a lot more to it than Cell being blasted and regenerating.

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I know it is clear that the BEST attack against Cell was the Father-Son Kamehameha Wave because that was the attack that ultimately killed him. Keep in mind that both Goku AND Vegeta played a role in Gohan’s attack being successful.

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In both the anime AND manga, Goku was coaching Gohan during the beam struggle.

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Finally, Vegeta steps in with a Ki blast that catches Cell off guard and that leads to his defeat.

Now in terms of Goku and Vegeta’s individual blasts on Cell, there were a lot of key factors that took place as a setup for their attacks.

  1. Perfect Cell was beating them both down!

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After Cell reached his Perfect Form, Super Vegeta (Ascended Super Saiyan) was being outclassed in every single way. This was the reverse of their earlier battle when Vegeta was beating down Semi-Perfect Cell. When it was clear that Vegeta was no match for the android, he powered up his Final Flash.

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During the Cell Games, Full Power Super Saiyan Goku was going blow for blow against Cell. After Cell blew up the tournament ring, it seemed like he was getting the upper hand because there was no longer any boundaries to their match. Goku realized that he had to go for broke and flew up into the air to charge up his Warp Kamehameha Wave.

  1. Goku and Vegeta put most of their Ki into their attacks

Considering that the Saiyans knew releasing their power in small amounts was not going to be enough to defeat Cell, they opted to go for broke by unleashing a huge Ki attack with the intention of finally killing Cell.

How do I know they used most of their Ki in their attacks?

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Vegeta was visibly exhausted after hitting Cell with the Final Flash and Piccolo sensed that the powers of both Cell AND Goku had dropped significantly after the Warp Kamehameha attack; Goku from using a large amount of his Ki for the attack and Cell’s power went down sharply due to the regeneration he needed to do to recover from the attack.

  1. Both moves took awhile to charge but Cell just stood there while the Saiyans powered up their attacks!

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If there is one thing we’ve learned about the Dragon Ball series, it is that if an opponent is powering up; you stand there and do nothing!

  1. Both attacks had enough power to blow up the planet

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Trunks screamed out to his father that his blast was going to blow up the planet if he launched an attack with that much force from that particular position at Cell.

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Piccolo screamed at everyone to get out of the way because Goku was going to use his Kamehameha! Cell noticed that similar to Vegeta, Goku was in a position with an attack so powerful that if he launched it from that angle the entire planet would blow up!

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Kind of like how Vegeta (with only a power level of 18,000) back in the Saiyan Saga would have blown up the earth with his Galick Gun, the powerful Super Saiyans fighting against Cell could have done the same. This shows that it isn’t about how much power you have that matters in a Ki attack in terms of what effect it has on the planet, it depends on where you launch because depending on the position of the user, the move could blow up a planet.

  1. Goku and Vegeta both played on Cell’s pride and ego

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Now here is what I like about Vegeta in this situation; he played himself! What do I mean by that? Remember that Cell has the cells of Vegeta and knew how to play on Vegeta’s ego, pride and thirst for a challenge against powerful foes. That was how he was able to trick Vegeta into letting him obtain his Perfect Form. Now in this situation, Vegeta played on Cell’s ego (the same as his) by telling him that if he really wanted to test out the limits of his new form that he’d take on the Final Flash head-on!

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In Goku’s case, we again come across a reverse situation of something that took place earlier in their battle. When Cell charged up a powerful earth shattering Kamehameha Wave, Goku warned him not to put that much Ki into the attack or it would destroy the planet. He used a large amount of Ki in his attack while Goku watched on in a panicked like state. After launching the blast at Goku, the Saiyan flew up into the air and used Instant Transmission to dodge at the last second which prevented the planet from blowing up!

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Alright, now let’s look at the Warp Kamehameha; Goku used a large amount of Ki in his attack while Cell watched with a panicked look on his face. At first, Cell thought that he had called Goku’s bluff because he knew that based on their earlier shuffle, Goku would not place the safety of the earth in danger just to win the fight. However, this proved to work to Goku’s advantage when he took Cell by surprise!

  1. Both Saiyans caught Cell off-guard and was he nearly killed by their attacks

Since Cell “allowed” Goku and Vegeta to charge up their attacks, this left him wide open to take the full force of their techniques.

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Against the Final Flash, Cell was completely taken by surprise! If Cell had not dodged the blast at the last moment by the skin of his teeth…he would have been destroyed! The attack blasted off a good portion of his upper-torso and it was clear that the rest of his body would have been destroyed if he had not reacted at the last moment.

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It wasn’t until the last moment when the blast was about to hit him that Cell realized that the Final Flash was capable of completely annihilating him!

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When Goku used his Warp Kamehameha, Cell had no time at all to defend himself. The blast took off his full upper torso leaving only his legs remaining! Goku’s Instant Transmission put him in a position where Cell’s guard wasn’t up and he didn’t have time to react like he did against the Final Flash (well at least the split second he had to dodge).

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So, we know that if Cell had moved out of the way at the last second the dodge the Final Flash, he would have been completely destroyed!

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Looking at the Warp Kamehameha, Goku actually “killed” Cell. However, that would only apply to the text in the manga which was altered in the anime. See in the manga, Cell stated that he could regenerate as long as his head remained intact. This is similar to the Namekian regeneration technique that he acquired from Piccolo’s cells.

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In the Buu Saga, Piccolo tells Trunks that he could regenerate as long as his head wasn’s damaged. This was what happened after Trunks breaks Piccolo (when he was a statue after being hit by Dabura’s Stone Spit).

Cell in the anime says that every cell of his body has a life of its own and even if he was blown to pieces, as long as one single cell remained; he could regenerate. So if we  look at the text of the anime only then we can say that technically Goku “killed” Cell because he blew his head completely off!

  1. Cell regenerated shocking both Saiyans!

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Vegeta expressed much joy in the fact that he maimed the “perfect” android that he heard so much about. However, Cell quickly put a stop to the Saiyan’s outburst by regenerating all of the damage he took from the Final Flash. This left Vegeta with a VERY surprised look on his face.

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While the Z-Fighters were celebrating Goku’s apparent victory over Cell (well most of them anyway), Goku did not buy into the fact that he had won. He said that he could still sense a lot of energy within what was left of Cell’s body. Then like something straight out of a nightmare; Cell’s lower-half jumped up and he fully regenerated!

  1. Goku and Vegeta blast Cell with a barrage of Ki blasts

After Cell regenerated, Vegeta was shocked because that was his trump card and it failed! He then powered up and fired a Ki blast that just left a small scratch on Cell’s body.

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Vegeta then fired dozens of Ki blasts but Cell simply walked toward him out of the smoke cloud and punched him right in the face.

Goku and Cell were having a fierce exchange with high speed melee attacks, but after being knocked into a cliff and Cell was about to charge him; Goku hopped out of the rubble for a counterattack!

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He unleashed a fierce barrage of Ki blasts (Continuous Kamehameha) that had Cell stuck in place! The android knew that he was in a tight spot and unleashed his Perfect Barrier technique to save himself.

Later on, he admitted to himself that if he had not put up his barrier when he did…Goku’s attack might have actually killed him!

It is interesting that despite both Super Saiyans releasing most of their Ki in their attacks to kill Cell but failed, they still had enough power to unleash a barrage of powerful energy blasts on the android!

  1. The Saiyans give up or were ultimately defeated

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After a punch to the face, Cell kicked Vegeta right into the air and ended it with an elbow to the back which sent him hurtling into the ground. Super Vegeta was utterly defeated…

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Realizing that his Continuous Kamehameha was no use against the Perfect Barrier, Goku paused while he and Cell took a short breather. A few moments later, Goku declared that he was no match for Cell and forfeited the match.

Now with all of this being said which attack actually got the better of the self acclaimed “Perfect Android?” 

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Both attacks were very impressive and powerful, but neither one got the job done. I’ll give the Saiyans credit because despite using such lethal techniques neither one of them blew up the planet. Trunks pointed out that Vegeta directed the Final Flash into space after it hit Cell to prevent the earth from exploding. Goku used the Instant Transmission to hit Cell in a vulnerable position that would do as little damage to the planet as possible.

It is difficult to say if the Warp Kamehameha would have COMPLETELY destroyed Cell like the Final Flash would have if Cell had stayed in that one spot. You do have to look at the slight differences of the position of the blasts when they made contact with Cell.

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The Final Flash would have hit Cell’s entire body, but Goku was in a position where the Warp Kamehameha could only hit his upper torso. Based on the amount of Ki Goku put into the attack, I’d say that if he had fired his technique from the sky like Vegeta did on Cell it would have destroyed him (and the planet unless he aimed it to fly into space like Vegeta did with his move after it hit Cell).

After going over all of the bits and pieces of information, I’m going to say that the Warp Kamehameha did Cell the most harm. Don’t get me wrong, the only reason these attacks did not kill Cell was because he moved at the last moment against the Final Flash and it was the change in translation of the original dialogue that prevent Goku from killing Cell.

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Looking aside from those small details, the Warp Kamehameha clearly did the most damage to Cell. I’m not just saying that because it blew up more of his body than the Final Flash, but it has to do with the aftermath of the attacks. After Cell regenerated from his damage, he took out Vegeta with ease and then got into battle with Ultra Trunks.

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When he regenerated from Goku’s attack, it was clear that his power level had decreased dramatically just like Goku’s because he had to exert a lot of energy to regenerate. He had to eat a Senzu Bean before engaging in battle with Gohan. That just shows how much of an effect Goku’s attack had on him.

Now that I have given you my reasoning behind why the Warp Kamehameha was the better move, feel free to express which attack you felt was more effective on Cell and why.

In case you need to see the scenes from the DBZ series when Goku and Vegeta use these moves against Cell then here they are!

Goku’s Warp Kamehameha

Vegeta’s Final Flash

Both are indeed highlights from the Cell Arc but only one can be named the best attack on the Android!

 

Android Saga: Super Saiyan Goku vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta

By Jeremy Carden

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If Goku and Vegeta did a battle to the end before their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber who would win?

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In the Android Saga, Vegeta finally ascended to the status of Super Saiyan in an attempt to close the gap between him and Goku proving that he is the most powerful Saiyan. However, we never got to see if Vegeta truly was the superior Super Saiyan.

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At the time of his ascension, the Z-Fighters were training for the Android threat that Trunks told them about. When Vegeta did return to Earth from his training in outer space it wasn’t good timing because Goku was in the middle of his battle with Android 19.

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Goku was suffering from his heart virus and near death when Vegeta saved him from Android 19. The next time we see Goku back on his feet was after Cell first appeared and began his hunt for humans to absorb before confronting the Androids.

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From there he, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks went into the Time Chamber for training. After Vegeta and Trunks emerged, it was clear that Vegeta was more powerful than Goku. Then when Gohan and Goku emerged, Goku once again surpassed the Saiyan Prince at the level of Full Power Super Saiyan.

However, we never get to see who was more powerful before the Time Chamber Training.

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What makes this battle somewhat difficult to evaluate is that we do not know how powerful Goku was prior to his heart virus. Remember he did train for three years with Piccolo and Gohan. At the time of the Android Saga, Goku was only seen fighting while he was sick so even during the battle with Android 19 his power was dropping.

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During their first fight on earth it was clear that Vegeta was more powerful until Goku started using the Kaio-Ken at multiple levels but Vegeta overall was more powerful than Goku after turning into a Great Ape.

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While fighting in the Buu Saga at Super Saiyan 2, they were dead even

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Of course meaning as regular Super Saiyans they were equal as well

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Even as Super Saiyan 4s in DBGT it seems they are even (but I discuss why they are not in this blog).

However it still remains unknown which one of them would win in the Android Saga…

There are a few areas that need to be looked at in order to give a fair evaluation:

  • Training
  • Speed
  • Durability
  • Techniques
  • Power
  • Brains
  • Attitude

Training

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Hands down the award for superior marital artist is Goku. This low-class Saiyan (as Vegeta would say) had trained in many forms of combat from his mentors that ranged Master Roshi to King Kai. Not to mention the unseen training he received on Yadrat before returning to earth after his battle with Frieza. After returning he said that he only had time to learn ONE technique on Yadrat which was the Instant Transmission. Not only that he learned how to transform into a Super Saiyan at will rather than only in moments of extreme rage or anger like the Hulk.

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Vegeta is a good fighter but his techniques are more brutal and sometimes he fights dirty. That is probably why I love watching him fight more than Goku.

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In preparation for the Android battle, Vegeta trained in 450x gravity which was almost 5x the gravity that Goku trained in on his way to Namek. This was prior to his transformation into a Super Saiyan demonstrating how he (like Goku) can excel in rough conditions improving his skills.

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Vegeta never really had a mentor or fighting instructor like Goku had. His father in flashbacks is shown teaching Vegeta about the Saiyans in terms of how they dominate planets for sale and send their offspring to other planets. In the Bardock special, we see him easily taking down Saibamen in a training center but after that is sent off on special missions for Frieza along with Nappa and eventually Raditz. Most of his training has been solo but the end result increases his power greatly.

Winner: Draw

Now the reason for this draw is because even though Goku has had more training from different masters, Vegeta has trained in harsher conditions. Not to jump ahead to the durability section, but I feel that Vegeta would be able to handle whatever Goku threw at him. With Goku’s abilities as a combat specialist, I think that he can endure, block or counter Vegeta’s techniques. So in a way they kind of cancel each other out with Vegeta’s 450x gravity training exceeding Goku’s training at 100x gravity.

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Keep in mind that Vegeta spent 3 YEARS first training at 150x gravity before ending with 450x gravity while Goku only spent 6 days going from 20x to 100x gravity.

Again in Goku’s case, having multiple styles of martial arts at his disposal thanks to training with many masters equips him with what he needs to deal with Vegeta’s brute force tactics.

Speed

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First off, we are eliminating Instant Transmission from this category because it’s well instant. Remember it is a technique in Goku’s arsenal but it is a technique NOT his natural speed.

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I feel that Vegeta training at 450x gravity was much more intense than Goku’s training with Piccolo and Gohan in earth’s normal gravity.

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Both of them are incredibly fast! Gravity training is very brutal on the body but after mastering the intense conditions both of them raised their power AND speed tremendously. After completing his training at 100x gravity Goku mentions that he felt light as a feather.

Winner: Vegeta BUT…

It depends on whether or not his body was once again used to Earth’s normal gravity.

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Considering his gravity training was more than Goku’s I’m sure that he was much faster. Now the reason I have room to doubt is because of his training in outer space. Right before he turned Super Saiyan, Vegeta was blasting a barrage or meteors coming down on the planet that he was on in order to save his spaceship. When one final rock came his way, he said that it took everything that he had and more in order to blow it to bits.

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He mentions that training at 450x gravity put a toll on his body and he hadn’t gotten used to normal gravity again by the time that giant meteor was headed his way. I’m guessing the huge drop of pressure on his body was too much and that was why he almost died trying to blow up the rock and got caught in the explosion. Vegeta even says that “normally” it would have been child’s play to blow up that rock.

So, we don’t know when this takes place because if it was very close to the arrival of the Androids I’m unsure if Vegeta’s body was once again used to normal gravity. However, going Super Saiyan probably helped to adjust any “complications” Vegeta had getting used to normal gravity conditions by earth’s standards I mean.

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If that is the case then I don’t think that anything was wrong with his speed. I guess the evidence came in the form of him easily dodging all of #19’s attacks with minimal effort.

Now if Vegeta DID recover from his 450x gravity by the time of the battle with the Androids then this point goes to him.

Durability

I have no doubt in my mind that Vegeta is the more durable fighter. The reason I am quick to say that is because of he and Goku’s gravity training.

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After training at 100x gravity during his trip to Namek, Goku said that he was now powerful enough to handle a 10x Kaio-Ken. During his battle with Vegeta, Goku could handle a Kaio-Ken at level 1 or 2 with ease. However, when he turned up the heat to a 3x Kaio-Ken his body began to pay the toll. Not to mention he needed to go up to level 4 to overpower the Galick Gun leaving Goku in an exhausted state. When he was caught in a tight spot during the battle with Frieza he was able to use a 20x Kaio-Ken and launch a 20x Kamehameha Wave that didn’t leave in a condition like he was after using the 4x Kaio-Ken against Vegeta.

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We can determine that Goku was not only more powerful due to his gravity training but also his body was more durable. Using the Kaio-Ken requires the body to be in a condition where it can handle the toll that the technique delivers on the body.

With that in mind, Vegeta trained in far harsher conditions in order to surpass Goku. He wanted to train in 300x gravity for starters and by the end of his training he had mastered his training at 450x gravity which is just about 5x the intensity of Goku’s gravity training.

I’m not saying that Goku can’t take a beat down because he’s been in some brutal battles in the series. However, I’m going to have to insist on Vegeta being the Saiyan who can take a beat down and continue fighting.

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*Except for Frieza because the tyrant pretty much destroyed his spine with merciless blows to the Saiyan’s back*

The Super Saiyan transformation boosts all of a Saiyan’s stats (which includes durability) meaning Vegeta should be able to handle whatever Goku dishes out.

Winner: Vegeta

Techniques

At this point of the series, it is clear that both Saiyans had a variety of moves in their arsenal.

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Goku’s best attack is the Super Kamehameha because I don’t think he’d use an Angry Kamehameha. I don’t know why I think him using it on Frieza was a onetime thing as opposed to the many times he used the Super Kamehameeha on opponents after the fight on Namek.

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While Vegeta’s best attack would be his Big Bang Attack

Aside from destructive Ki attacks and brutal fighting moves, Vegeta doesn’t have that much to offer in terms of skills to power him up or throw his opponent through hoop like Goku has in his arsenal.

The Instant Transmission technique gives Goku a huge advantage. Being able to dodge attacks, launch attacks from different angles and surprise Vegeta gives him an edge.

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Now you are probably wondering: What about the Warp Kamehameha?

This wasn’t introduced in the series until his fight with Perfect Cell but I don’t think that he wouldn’t use it here. It doesn’t seem like a technique that he trained to use, I think Goku just made it up on the spot to take Cell by surprise. Kind of like how Vegeta used the Final Flash to catch Cell off guard by taunting him into taking the full force of the blast. With that in mind, I’m sure that Goku would probably “develop” the attack during his fight with Vegeta.

Remember Goku poured most of his power into the attack and Cell even says that it is more than enough power to destroy the earth if he launches if from his position in the sky. Goku most likely planned on that being the move to KILL Cell but it didn’t work.

Again this is a fight to the end between Goku and Vegeta in this scenario. If Goku DID use the Warp Kamehameha on Vegeta with that much power then I do see him winning. Most likely due to Vegeta not being able to regenerate like Cell can.

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The Solar Flare is also a technique that would give Goku a leg up to stun Vegeta just long enough to get in a powerful attack. So Goku in my opinion has more techniques that would disorient his opponent.

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And no I don’t think he’d use the Spirit Bomb because of 2 reasons:

1. It takes WAY too long to charge up and I doubt Vegeta would just sit there while Goku gathers energy. I know he let Cell turn Perfect, did nothing while Frieza transformed and so on but the Spirit Bomb takes too long. I know the duration of one Solar Flare in the Saiyan Saga was enough for Goku to get the Ki needed to form a bomb on Great Ape Vegeta but I doubt Goku could gather enough Ki to take out a Super Saiyan near his own power in only a minute or two

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2. This is a fight between Super Saiyans and one must have a pure heart to form the attack. Goku had not reached Full Power Super Saiyan yet in the Android Saga meaning that he was still transforming into an untamed level of power where his heart is somewhat corrupted by the power and his own Saiyan instincts. I know he used transformed in Super Android 13 but it was only after he had already formed the bomb and he simply absorbed the Ki instead of launching it. No doubt if he did that Vegeta would be done for in an instant.

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Could Goku use the Kaio-Ken as a Super Saiyan?

Remember he was dead and in the Otherworld when he used this in his battle with Pikkon. He used the technique making his power as a Full Power Super Saiyan double basically making him power up to a Super Saiyan 2 power level. However, he only was at that power for a couple of seconds. Afterwards, he was almost completely exhausted. Keep in mind that a dead body uses less Ki than a living one meaning that if Goku was that exhausted while dead I don’t think his living body back in the Android Saga could handle that much power at once. Again let’s forget about him absorbing the Spirit Bomb in the movie since that was a different scenario.

Winner: Goku

Power

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With no official power levels being recorded after Trunks’ power of 5 on the Scouter of one of Frieza’s men, I cannot give out numbers on this.

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Considering that Goku was stronger than he was on Namek and Vegeta is more or less even with him then we can conclude that both have power levels higher than 150 million which was Goku’s power on Namek.

If you ask me we don’t see Goku OR Vegeta at 100% during the Android Saga.

Goku was only seen punching Android #20 in the face and fighting with Android #19. However, his power was decreasing as the battle went on due to the heart virus taking its toll.

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The only time we see him actually up and about was right after he woke up and pulled a Krillin: standing outside of Kame House shooting Kamehameha Waves in the ocean. We don’t know if he got a Zenkai from the near death virus that had him in bed for 10 days and even if he did then we don’t know how much his power was boosted. Obviously it was not much because if he did get a boost then he would not have been so anxious to ascend past a Super Saiyan to combat the Androids and Cell.

I’m relying on Piccolo for this category because of 2 reasons:

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1. When Goku transformed to fight #19, Tien was shocked at his power but Piccolo showed no sign of being surprised at the Ki Goku was giving off. That could be because he was much stronger as a training partner for Goku than Gohan was and I bet that Goku trained with Piccolo as a Super Saiyan.

Why?

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Being easily able to defeat Android #20, Krillin mentions that Piccolo was probably as strong as a Super Saiyan. This statement made Vegeta sarcastically say “Right…” I mean Piccolo’s huge boost in power over the 3 years could not have come unless he had a strong opponent to spar and train with. In that case, Piccolo had already been in the presence of Goku when he was at his maximum so he had no reason to be surprised when he went Super Saiyan.

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His calm demeanor was a huge difference from his reaction to Goku going Super Saiyan after Trunks asked him to. He was just as surprised as everyone else witnessing Goku going Super Saiyan for the first time in front of them.

2. After Vegeta ate a Senzu Bean and flew off in search of #20, Gohan asked if Vegeta was more powerful than his dad. Piccolo states that Vegeta might actually be more powerful than Goku is. Again, I’m pretty sure that Piccolo is comparing Goku at his prime (during their training) not based on his performance against #19 while he was being drained by the virus.

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Later on after easily losing to #17 and #18, Tien tells Trunks that he is one of the most powerful guys that he has ever met before but he was taken out in one blow by those Androids even as a Super Saiyan. He goes even further saying that Goku is strong but even so he couldn’t see how he could be that much stronger than Trunks OR Vegeta.

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Kami even says that Vegeta as a Super Saiyan was tossed around like a rag-doll and even if Goku recovers from his illness in order to help he’d provide little resistance against these powerful new foes.

In terms of Vegeta not fighting at 100% during the Android Saga here is why:

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1. Willingly letting himself lose Ki to #19 was again to confirm that Androids do absorb Ki through their hands. Not only that, Vegeta was able to toss around the overweight Android with no trouble at all so there was really no need for Vegeta to fight at his maximum.

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2. Against #18, it was clear that Vegeta lost that battle with both arms broken along with his pride. He let his anger get the best of him due to #18’s insults and he was fighting sloppy making it difficult to see what he was TRULY capable of.

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So even though we never get any clear confirmation as to who was more powerful, we can assume that if one was indeed more powerful than the other then the gap between the two would be minimal. I think we can agree that Trunks ranks at #3 just ahead of Piccolo but right behind Goku and Vegeta who in my mind are the Top 2 Z-Fighters at that point: until Kamiccolo jumps to #1.

Winner: Vegeta

I’m going with Vegeta just because I think that gravity training raised his power quite a bit. The time he spent in those rough conditions really did a lot for him. But again even if Vegeta IS more powerful he isn’t that much more powerful than Goku. So in their battle every attack would count since it takes up precious Ki.

You are probably thinking how training in 450x gravity only made the difference between their powers only “a bit” different from each other.

Need I remind you of Goten and Trunks?

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Trunks was training at 150x gravity with Vegeta before the World Tournamet. He was struggling just to walk BUT he was standing. Later on he is seen doing over 9000 one handed pushups.

Well like his father he was doing finger pushups but hey like father like son right?

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After showing his dad that he could easily go Super Saiyan and was jumping around 150x gravity like it was nothing, he says that he is “a bit” stronger than Goten.

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Goten on the other hand did not train in increased gravity until he and Trunks enter the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and even then he doesn’t seem fazed by the increased gravity. This is most likely because he saw Super Buu kill Chi-Chi while he was watching and that determination erased any signs of him feeling the strain of 10x gravity.

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Goten trained first with Chi-Chi and then with Gohan (who most likely only fought/trained with Goten as a Super Saiyan and not a Super Saiyan 2) while Trunks trained with Super Saiyan Vegeta in the gravity room.

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One main reason for their gap in power is that Goten was a year younger than Trunks (which is a much smaller age gap than there is between Goku and Vegeta) not to mention the two were able to easily go Super Saiyan unlike their fathers but still I think it is a valid comparison.

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Goku trained with Gohan and then was able to use more power training with Piccolo while Vegeta trained solo in 450x gravity.

So, we can conclude that even if Vegeta trained in increased gravity he wouldn’t have surpassed Goku by that much if he did indeed surpass him as a Super Saiyan.

Brains

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Goku is a fighting genius and takes huge gambles with his body/energy and they usually pay off for him. Most likely due to his willpower and never give up spirit that just makes him a better fighter as a result. However that is just about it when it comes to Goku’s brains because he fights with a level head and thinks outside of the box which is a good counter for Vegeta.

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Vegeta is more deceptive and cunning than Goku. After #20 flew off in fear, Piccolo stated that Vegeta is nearly unbeatable not only in combat but in psychological warfare as well. The reason being that #19 sucked A LOT of Vegeta’s Ki during their fight due to Vegeta willing letting it happen to confirm that they absorb Ki through their hands.

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Not to mention the large amount of Ki he used to blow #19 up with the Big Bang Attack. There is no doubt that Vegeta was exhausted but his taunt worked. He powered down from Super Sayian and started jeering #20 to attack him while he had the chance since the fight with #19 left him weakened. Instead of attacking, #20 took the bait and ran for the cliffs with Vegeta in hot pursuit. Piccolo even states that if #20 had attacked Vegeta then he would have won.

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Much later in the Fusion Saga during the fight between Buuhan and Super Vegito, King Yemma tells Baba that Vegeta is smart and a better tactician than Goku.

I’m sure during the battle Goku would be able to get the upper hand on Vegeta by digging deep to overpower him but when it comes to brainpower the winner is…

Winner: Vegeta

 

Attitude

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As mentioned above, Goku gets excited in the midst of battle. He has said time and time again that the stronger his opponent the stronger he fights and that battle excitement brings out the best in him.

Goku would not want to fight unless his opponent was at his best and I’m sure he and Vegeta would fight at their max from the beginning so I’m not guessing Vegeta would take a long time going to 100% like Frieza did during his fight with Goku.

But remember this is a “death battle” so forget about Goku showing mercy on Vegeta.

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Vegeta on the other hand would have an attitude of giving it 110% because THIS is the moment that he has been waiting for! He had finally gained the level of Super Saiyan and this battle would be his chance to finally regain his place as the Prince of All Saiyans and the most powerful Saiyan.

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Just like his battle with Super Saiyan 2 Goku in the Babidi Saga, Vegeta would not be holding back.

Now here is where Vegeta might lose:

Going Super Saiyan does more than increase power and speed it does something to their personality as well (at least until they learn to control it better like Goku and Gohan did mastering Full Power Super Saiyan). See in base form Vegeta is proud, prideful and stubborn and going Super Saiyan makes him even more hotheaded and irrational than before.

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Piccolo mentions that since he became a Super Saiyan, Vegeta’s ego has been out of control and losing to a woman (#18) did more than hurt his body it hurt his spirit and pride.

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I could actually see him winning and have Goku exactly where he wants him but his pride wouldn’t allow him to simply kill Goku. He’d probably give one of his famous monologues instead of finishing Goku off allowing Goku to find an opening for a counterattack.

He felt cheated that a low-class was the first to reach the legendary status of Super Saiyan instead of him due to his royal heritage and bloodline. Seriously, Vegeta cannot let anything go especially a matter involving his ego and he would give Goku an earful of pride instead of getting the job done.

Winner: Goku

*Seeing them work together in combat*

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The only time that we see these two actually fighting side by side was in the movie The Return of Cooler. At first Vegeta was fighting solo not even caring if he blasted Goku or not. Then they worked together to destroy one Meta-Cooler before they were overtaken by 1,000 of them.

It is difficult to say who was stronger because:

1. This was a movie not canon but still a good fight in my book

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2. Goku had been fighting much longer so no doubt his Ki was a bit depleted by the time Vegeta showed up.

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Similar to being choked by #19 and having his life force drained from him

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Goku was being chocked by Meta-Cooler before Vegeta showed up and saved him with a kick to the opponent’s face just like he     did against #19

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3. The only time they worked together was when they charged into Cooler busting him into pieces before Vegeta blasted him away

And the winner is…

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Vegeta!

With a score of 4 to 2 (not including the draw) Vegeta comes out on top. There are a lot of factors that come into play during the breakdown of their battle so I did my best to look at every possible advantage and disadvantage. Even though Vegeta got the most points, that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be a close battle.

What do you think; would Goku win by an upset or does Saiyan Prince still reign supreme?

What-if: Android 20 Saved #19 From The Big Bang Attack?

by Jeremy Carden

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I’ve always been curious about this considering how fast #20 appears to be. I remember in the episode after Vegeta kills #19, he is furious at #20 hiding behind the cliffs and decided to blow up the area until he finds him. However after he fired his blast, #20 comes rushing out of nowhere to absorb the blast to increase his power and when Vegeta flies in pursuit, #20 runs away as quickly as he had appeared.

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With that being said, I don’t think it would have been impossible for Gero to rush in at the last moment and absorb the Big Bang Attack.

Now I can see why the writers did NOT allow this to happen since it would pretty much guarantee the Z-Fighters would have all been killed.

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Super Vegeta allowed #19 to absorb his Ki in order to confirm that the Androids DID absorb energy through their hands which was why Vegeta ripped them off of the tubby robot before blasting him into smithereens.

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He was able to play mind games and taunt #20 who was nervous. Vegeta’s tactic worked and the Android fled from the scene. Piccolo mentioned that if #20 did not fall for Vegeta’s trick he would have most likely been able to defeat Vegeta even as a Super Saiyan. Most likely due to #19 absorbing a good portion of his Ki and Vegeta also put a great deal of his remaining Ki into his Big Bang Attack to finish the battle.

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Piccolo was the only other Z-Fighter on the scene able to defeat #20 as we saw after #20 jumped him for his Ki and then he got a Senzu and was easily smacking him around.

Vegeta is dead...oh crap we're screwed!

Vegeta is dead…oh crap we’re screwed!

Though if he would have absorbed Vegeta’s attack, his power would have skyrocketed to the point where I doubt even Piccolo would have had the strength necessary to stop him. Super Vegeta and Piccolo would be beaten and the only ones left being Tien, Krillin and Gohan. Even though Gohan might have a fit of rage with Piccolo defeated, I doubt it would be enough to stop #20.

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Not to mention if Future Trunks arrived, I doubt that he would be able to do much either considering Gero was most likely speedy enough to dodge his sword.

Senzu Bean!

Senzu Bean!

True, Krillin did have a bag of Senzu Beans but let’s just pretend that he didn’t use them for one reason or another. Now that I think about it, #20 probably wouldn’t just kill Vegeta and Piccolo; he’d probably beat them good before taking their energy increasing his strength even further.

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He knew where Goku lived so he could probably go finish him off before he would awaken from his heart virus 10 days later, he would take #19 back to his lab for repairs since his arms were no longer attached to his body.

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Gero would have no reason to awaken #17 and #18 meaning that he would not be destroyed by #17

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Which would also mean #16 would still be in his “coffin”

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Considering that he and #19 were able to collect life force from the Z-Fighters in their more powerful states due to their post-Namek training, he would possibly add those cells/energy to the present day Cell!

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Wow, then I wonder what the Future Cell who came back to the present would do with no Androids around (unless he knew that they would be in the lab?). It would be interesting for Gero’s creation to confront him at his lab! It brings about so many possible outcomes but that is the entire point of speculation.

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So now I can pretty much see why the writers avoided this by deciding to not allow #20 to absorb the Big Bang Attack.