Is Super Saiyan Gotenks More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

by Jeremy Carden

This is something that a lot of people say is a crazy decision on my part in terms of me thinking two toddlers fused into a Super Saiyan could be more powerful than an experienced warrior who is 100% Saiyan and has a 400 times increase in his Super Saiyan 3 form.

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Here is why I believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is MORE powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku:

Now when you think about it there are technically “two” Gotenks when I’m talking about this subject; we have pre-Time Chamber Gotenks and post-Time Chamber Gotenks.

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The boys were training in the Time Chamber for 30 minutes (and 1 extra minute for rest; 6 hours in the chamber). With one minute equaling 6 hours that means they were inside for 180 hours and that equals 7.5 days.

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So, Goten and Trunks had a little over a week of training before facing off with Super Buu in the Time Chamber, on the Lookout (destroying it) and finally down on Earth with their Fusion splitting.

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The reason why I say that pre-Time Chamber SS Gotenks is POSSIBLY stronger than SS3 Goku is by using Fat Buu as the “control” in theory of calculating his power.

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SS3 Goku could have killed the Fat Majin Buu in their first fight if he really tried but decided to not finish the battle in order for new heroes to emerge

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He then powered down back to base form after Trunks retrieved the Dragon Radar and asked Buu for a favor: to wait 2 days until a new challenger arrived on the scene who would give him a better fight than even a Super Saiyan 3.

That right there showed that he felt the boys as a fused being would be enough to defeat Majin Buu.

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Remember Trunks begged for him to teach them how to use Super Saiyan 3 to fight Majin Buu. However, Goku told him that even if they both went to level 3 and fought Majin Buu it would not be enough and he made a valid point.

He firmly stated that Fusion was the ONLY way to win the battle. So that shows that Goku had more faith in Fusion rather than Super Saiyan 3 being the technique needed to kill Majin Buu.

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True, base form Gotenks was easily defeated when he first went to fight Buu. He was nearly killed by the weight sensitive Majin Buu.

Super Saiyan Gotenks in my opinion would have been able to kill Majin Buu.

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As to whether or not Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-Time Chamber) was more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku has yet to be determined. I figure that since the two of them (in my opinion) would have been able to defeat Fat Buu, it places them in the same power level realm.

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Though it is uncertain as to which one would have the upper hand in battle. Keep in mind that it was only after training in the Time Chamber did Gotenks have moves like the Super Ghost, Galatic Doughnut and other deadly moves so I’d imagine him using techniques like the Big Tree Cannon or the Kamehameha (or Kamekameha as Goten says it).

If he wasn’t then Goku wouldn’t have bothered teaching them the Fusion. If Goku KNEW the fusion was not going to be enough to stop Buu, he would have done the job himself. Also, he was more determined to teach the boys Fusion than SS3.

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Hearing Goku and Piccolo talk about how a Super Saiyan Fusion would be more than enough to stop Buu without the need of learning SS3 was similar to Old Kai telling Goku that the Potara Fusion in base form would be more than enough to defeat Super Buu without needing to transform into a regular Super Saiyan!

Now after that week of training in the Time Chamber, Goten and Trunks not only polished off the Fusion Technique; Piccolo commented on how much they improved with their Ki aligning perfectly from the start and their dance execution was flawless.

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But they came up with dozens of new attacks (most of them ridiculous just to put on a show before finishing Buu right from the start; Trunks’ idea), reaching SS2 (which they skipped over) and SS3.

After fusing, Piccolo said that Gotenks’ power level (base form) was much higher than it was previously when they fused for the first time and he went off only to receive a beating from Fat Buu.

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Of course base form Gotenks wasn’t even able to inflict any (noticeable) damage to Super Buu.

After transforming, into Super Gotenks (Super Saiyan) things were a bit different. True, Buu was still able outclass him in power and speed.

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The only time that Gotenks did any damage was with a head butt and then the Super Ghost move that blew Buu up multiple times.

Alright, so basically the reason I say that Super Gotenks post-Time Chamber is stronger than Goku is because of that week of training the boys did. True, Super Gotenks wasn’t strong enough to defeat Super Buu BUT I think they grew powerful enough to close the gap between themselves and SS3 Goku and go even higher than that.

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SS3 Goku cannot, I repeat cannot defeat Super Buu. I’m not just saying that based on what Goku told Vegeta in Buu’s head about how they were not able to defeat Buu as they are (SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta being their max power to fight once they escaped). SS3 Gotenks could not get the job done (well maybe if his Fusion time and SS3 power didn’t run out…). And he is stronger than Super Buu hands down!

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I know SS3 Gotenks being AT LEAST x8 stronger than SS3 Goku is a stretch but look at it this way; remember SS4 Gogeta is said to be dozens of times more powerful than a “regular/un-fused” SS4. Now how come it is hard to believe that SS3 Gotenks is at least x8 more powerful than a “regular/un-fused” SS3?

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Don’t get me wrong, Mystic Gohan is above him AND Goku that is just a simple fact. However, with no power levels being measured in the Buu Saga, Zenkai was pretty much written out after the Frieza Saga (well maybe a couple were shown in the Android/Cell Sagas) it is really difficult to say how accurate I think I am about this.

My final thoughts are based on this topic; being more powerful and stronger than someone doesn’t mean you are going to be able to defeat them!

Just because Gotenks exceeds Goku’s power doesn’t mean that he could beat him. Remember SS3 Gotenks can only last 5 minutes not to mention using that form also decreases the remaining 25 minutes of the Fusion left (if Gotenks were to go SS3 right after fusing). I think that Goku can hold his Super Saiyan 3 power for at least 10 minutes given his battles with Fat and Kid Buu.

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With Instant Transmission, durability, experience and tactics on his side, Goku would be able to hold his own POSSIBLY besting the powerful tike. Although he was getting his behind handed to him by Buutenks; Super Buu, Piccolo AND Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He might be able to do pretty well against the boy(s).

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Now that is why I feel that Super Gotenks is more powerful than SS3 Goku. Whether or not you believe he is x8 more powerful when he powers up to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is up to you but that is just going by the SS multipliers. True Gotenks did “skip” SS2 but that doesn’t erase the x2 increase over his SS form along with the x4 increase from SS3 making him 8 times more powerful than his SS form which again I believe is more powerful than SS3 Goku.

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Remember back in the Cell Saga, he wanted Gohan to get more powerful than him and the end result was a success!

Now in the Buu Saga, he wanted to step back and let the boys handle the burden of protecting the planet.

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Overall, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan were more powerful than even Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So again, his objective of passing the torch was fulfilled.

Alright now that MY thoughts are out of the way, it is now time for you to voice your own opinion on the subject. Again please explain WHY you feel a certain way about this.

12 thoughts on “Is Super Saiyan Gotenks More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

  1. Dylon Moore says:

    i wont deny wat ur saying. in fact, all the evidence u provided supports ur theory pretty much flawlessly in my eyes. but i will say this: its not just that extra week that makes gotenks stronger than ssj3 goku. the fact that gotenks is made up of 2 half saiyans that can go to ssj2 on their own each pretty much shows that a fusion of them in normal ssj would be as strong, if not stronger than goku’s ssj3 form. that and ssj3 puts a tremendous amount of strain on the user’s body so using it for too long is pretty much a bad idea

  2. andrew padilla says:

    No. the only reason ssj3 goku didnt defeat fat buu was because he wanted to give them a chance to save earth and his time left on earth was running out. He only asked fat buu to wait two days so he would wreaking havoc on earth temporarily… ssj3 gotenks could hardly even touch super buu in close combat without using an energy attack and even when he did hit him he just regenerated. yet mystic gohan being slightly stronger than ssj3 goku inflicted massive amount of damage to buu using just melee. He would of killed buu if he didnt self destruct. Your argument is invalid.

    • Seriously, you are missing the point completely! Gotenks and Super Buu were pretty much on par with one another you need to watch their battle again.

      Not to mention Gotenks is not the martial artist that Vegeta, Gohan or Goku was. True Goten and Trunks were trained by martial artists (first by Chi-Chi then Gohan) and Trunks by Vegeta but they still had much to learn and just by their fighting style you can see he is still a child!

      Wait wait wait…Gohan being slightly stronger than Goku? Wow seriously man this isn’t even worth debating you clearly don’t know your stuff!

  3. Venithil says:

    The common overlook in Goku putting his faith in the two kids is two things :
    – Goku SSJ3 does acknowledge he’d be able to kill Fat Buu and Kid Buu.
    – Goku is confident a fused Goten+Trunks will be able to kill *Fat* Buu… After 2-3 days (can’t remember right now if he asked for 2 or 3 days from Buu). I feel pretty confident in Goku planning to use the Room of Spirit and Time on Goten and Trunks for the entire day before sending them out to fight Majin Buu. Now, given that neither him nor Vegeta could reach SSJ2 form by training in the chamber, that *basically tells us 1 year training in the room by Goten and Trunks is equal to, or superior than, SSJ3 Goku (while only using SSJ fused form).

    The thing people commonly skip is the time asked of Buu to allow for the preparation. Gotenks surpasses Goku’s expectations by going SSJ3 and that “saves the day”, so to speak, because Buu also transformed into a more controlled and stronger form by that time, but I do not see any definitive proof the pre- RoS&T Gotenks, or even post the 7 days of training Gotenks, is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

    However, Gotenks *is* clearly stronger than Goku overall when they’re in the same state, of that there’s no doubt as far as Buu Saga is concerned.

  4. […] Yes, I am one of those people who believe that in terms of power; Gotenks exceeds Super Saiyan 3 Goku. You can read all about my thoughts on that subject in this blog. […]

  5. Nick Jonas says:

    Yes agree gotenks is stronger than ss3 goku jujding they achieve ss3 faster than goku did but only Ss3 gotenks could beat goku. ….I mean come on do u really believe ss gotenks is stronger than ss3 goku. …if he was picolo would have mentioned it like how he mentioned majin vegeta is stronger than ss 2 teen gohan. …ss gotenks be stronger than ss3 goku would be unfair To goku. …like gohan needing ultimate form. …gotenks need ss3 to beat goku

  6. Brotenks says:

    Good post, but I’ve got some ideas to counter some arguments. Following the Daizenshuu and Super Exciting Guide, I have the following points to raise:

    1. I find it difficult to base EVERYTHING Goku said up until his return to Other World as factual and/or precise at face value. I don’t think it’s at all reliable to take Goku’s claim about the fusion technique as conclusive evidence in this debate for several reasons.

    For one thing, I think it’s flawed to accept the observation he made about the Metamorese fighters fusing to become a strong warrior and then supposedly deriving some sort of ‘precise forecast’ of Gotenks’ power, since 1. who knows how many years it’s been since he fought those warriors, 2. how does he know that the properties of the fusion technique (i.e. the same formula to calculate strength, etc.) will be uniformly distributed among all fusing pairs, and most importantly, 3. he hasn’t had a particularly good record of predicting power levels in this saga at all (i.e. the Dabura/Cell comparison which is later proven inaccurate, his overestimation of the boys’ max strength at SSJ and his downright underestimation of Kid Buu during his fight).

    Remember, in the moments leading up to the final battle with Kid Buu, Goku practically reveals a bunch of his own personal admissions that contradict everything he said prior to returning to Other World. In fact, he goes as far as saying that he was BETTING/GAMBLING on the future of the Earth by “giving the kids something to do.” Doubting his chances of winning against Fat Buu using SSJ3 (which he repudiates prior to fighting Kid Buu) and then boasting his absolute “confidence” and “certainty” in Gotenks’ strength to Buu, Piccolo and the rest of the cast (both of which were lies, or at the very least, deceiving) were false claims he made to justify his gamble.

    2. ALL instances of Gotenks confronting Buu prior to his final fight against Super Buu, in SSJ3 are NOT necessarily indicative of his strength relative to the rest of the cast. In fact, it is a lot more logical to interpret those events as gags (a common theme with Gotenks). There is a belief that Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta (SSJ2) simply because he survived his initial fight with Fat Buu, which is faulty logic, because then you’d literally have to accept ridiculous statements, such as Mr. Satan (a.k.a. Hercule) > FPSSJ Goku (because he survived against Cell) and Mr. Satan > North, West and South Kaioshin (because he survived against Kid Buu)…

    Many argue that SSJ Gotenks pre-RoSaT > Fat Buu because everyone seems to be assured of his power (i.e. Piccolo was worried about Gotenks’ speed) and that there’s nothing contradicting it… I suppose this is valid from a purist view of the manga, but it goes against the Daizenshuu, which states that Gotenks only became stronger than “Vegeta and the others” (assuming SSJ2 Vegeta, who is of course weaker than Fat Buu) only after training in the RoSaT. Above all else, the boys had one more day prior to the scheduled confrontation with Buu (to spend in the RoSaT for a full year’s worth of training), so naturally, it would make sense if SSJ Gotenks pre-RoSaT was weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta (who is weaker than Fat Buu and therefore weaker than SSJ3 Goku).

    As for Gotenks’ fight with Super Buu (in Base and in SSJ), yet again, it’s a case of gags (as stated by Akira Toriyama himself!). While I have no doubt that Gotenks’ power did increase noticeably post-RoSaT, you simply can’t take Piccolo’s blind/miraculous optimism in Gotenks’ increased power as a serious indicator of his strength relative to the rest of the cast. If that’s the case, then you’d also be accepting Piccolo’s belief that somehow Gotenks stands a chance against Super Buu at 0.25% (1/400) and at 12.5% (50/400 or 1/8) in Base form and in SSJ respectively (assuming SSJ3 Gotenks is more or less equal to Super Buu and that the figures given for Base and SSJ power levels relative to SSJ3, derived from the Super Exciting Guide, are accurate).

    What I propose is this:

    SSJ3 Gotenks >= SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks post-RoSaT > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Gotenks pre-RoSaT.

    That would therefore make Base Gotenks pre-RoSaT under twice as strong as Base Vegeta. I know this sounds underwhelming, considering the reaction of the Z-Fighters when the fusion is finally successful for the first time, especially Krillin who thought he’d be able to beat Fat Buu (therefore implying that he’s stronger than Majin Vegeta). But again, the blind optimism is a gag element. If Piccolo could believe in Gotenks’ chance of victory (at about 0.25% of Super Buu’s power), then I don’t see why it couldn’t have applied for Krillin previously. In fact, both scenarios recycle the same gag, in the sense that someone makes an optimistic expression suggesting that Gotenks has a chance of winning, when it’s outright denied just a few panels later.

    Furthermore, to accept the idea of SSJ Gotenks going from weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta to being stronger than SSJ3 Goku, you’d have to accept the idea that somehow Gotenks became over 4x stronger (the jump from SSJ2 to SSJ3) after a little over a week’s worth of training. That’s subjective, but IMO, it isn’t likely. Otherwise, wouldn’t the Daizenshuu have stated that Gotenks became stronger than “GOKU and the others” after training? People have also interpreted this statement differently, but the fact remains is that the problems I noted with claims from gag elements suggest that Gotenks doesn’t need to be anywhere near as strong as most claim him to be (i.e. stronger than Majin Vegeta (SSJ2)).

  7. […] blog that I wrote awhile back was concerning the subject of Super Gotenks’ power compared to Goku’s. In that blog, I talked about my thoughts on how even a Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks had power that was […]

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