Dragonball Z: How Strong Is Dabura?

by Jeremy Carden

I’ll say this to start things off; I don’t think we EVER got to see the extent of the Demon King’s power.

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When he first appears and combats the Z-Fighters on the cliff, he kills Kibito with one Ki blast to the face, turns Piccolo and Krillin to stone, dodges Goku’s attempt to attack him and blocks all of Vegeta’s punches.

Later on, Vegeta mentions that he doesn’t see him as the threat that Supreme Kai is making him out to be. He says that if he could just avoid his Stone Spit then he knew that he could beat him.

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Goku takes it a step further and says that he is in the same power range as Perfect Cell; note he was not referring to Super Perfect Cell just his Perfect form which was below Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. He tells Shin, that if it had been 7 years ago that Dabura might make them nervous.

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After Yakon’s defeat, he reassures Babidi that even if Goku and the other’s kili reading was 4,000 it would not be enough to destroy him. Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s kili measurement was 3,000 meaning that he would be more powerful than Goku as a FPSSJ.

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Now keep in mind that Super Saiyan 2 is twice that of a Super Saiyan meaning that his kili reading as a Super Saiyan 2 would theoretically be around 6,000.

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*Majin Vegeta is practically Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 2 just “brainwashed” by Babidi and he was EQUAL to Super Saiyan 2 Goku meaning that his kili reading would most likely be 6,000 as well*

So, Goku was assessing Dabura’s power level to Cell just from their scuffle outside of the ship.

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Before fighting Gohan, he went into the meditation room and as Babidi puts it the room helps him focus his already incredible fighting power; potentially meaning that Dabura is even MORE powerful when he fights Gohan meaning that he might be above Goku’s initial prediction of his power.


When he fights Gohan, he quickly overwhelms his base form but after powering up as a Super Saiyan 2, he starts to be on the receiving end of the attacks.

It was only until Gohan taunts him into using his full force does Dabura pick up the pacing. Before he powers up, he tells Gohan that he was give him “a taste” of his full power.


After powering up, he fights on par with Gohan but as the match goes on he is the one taking over the fight. Gohan’s lack of training and as Vegeta put it, he’s also lost his fighting sense and Goku agrees because he was making simple mistakes during the fight. Dabura says that he feels Gohan’s Ki dropping and it is made apparent with him using up more energy running around trying to keep up with Dabura than actually fighting.

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You could really tell he was struggling especially after he caught and broke Dabura’s sword, it took a lot out of him. I know your probably thinking that since Gohan won that struggle that he is more powerful than Dabura. BUT you have to look at two details;

  1. Gohan powered up with an aura BEFORE he caught Dabura’s sword meaning that he was had to exert a lot of Ki in order to overpower Dabura who didn’t emit an aura he was just trying to cut Gohan with his sword. We saw what appeared to be a golden smoke or fumes coming from their scuffle but then it disappears once Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 aura starts fiercely admitting from him even more than it was before and snapping the sword in two.
  2. The sword ended up snapping because after a lot of struggling, Gohan was able to break it meaning that he overpowered the sword NOT Dabura. There was so much pressure on the sword that it had nothing else to do but break kind of like the pressure put on a pimple and it bursts with enough force


Dabura then quits the match in favor of Vegeta being the one to finish the job of gathering the energy for Buu’s ball. So, if I were to make a prediction; if the match went on until either he or Super Saiyan 2 Gohan won, I’d cast my vote on Dabura winning.

There was so much going for him that made him overwhelm the Super Saiyan 2. With most of his advantage over Gohan being his element of surprise giving him an upper hand along with Gohan’s skills being rusty.


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  1. Gohan’s lack of training and no longer having that fighting sense or prowess that he had against Cell made him vulnerable to make simple mistakes like fighting head on against Dabura and being caught off guard on more than one occasion
  2. Dabura’s Afterimage and his natural speed
  3. His Flame Breath attack
  4. His magical abilities; his sword had Gohan on the run because he didn’t see it coming and he was close to cutting him on more than one swing of that blade
  5. He was still holding back, I’d wager if he emitted his 100% power when Gohan told him to instead of just using a little he would have ended the battle a lot faster
  6. Gohan’s Ki was decreasing; most likely to him taking on a lot of damage from Dabura and as a Super Saiyan 2 because he didn’t master the form like he did his Super Saiyan form meaning the 100x power increase was draining him fast. Remember against Cell he was basically “in control” of his energy output, against Dabura he was basically playing “cat and mouse” trying to find an opening but getting beat every time

Now we don’t get to see him in action again until after Buu takes him out with an eye gouge and a kick that sends him hurtling into a cliff with Babidi (with glee) commenting that he probably killed him (wow talk about a severance package…).


He then reemerges to fight Buu with a spear that does nothing due to his regeneration power. I have to admit that Dabura put up a pretty good fight despite being heavily wounded. Goten and Trunks were watching commenting on how scary his Ki was when he was powering up to use the Full Power Energy Blast Volley on Buu (Which did no damage to Buu at all, he came out of the smoke with a smile…). In the end, he is turned into a cookie and eaten.

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The only other time we see him is in a flashback when Yemma tells Goku about his trip to the Check-In station, he fights off some of Yemma’s workers but is flattened by his “stamp of approval” sending him to Heaven due to him being from the Demon World meaning that he’d enjoy Hell.

So, we really don’t see Dabura’s 100%; he held back against Gohan and when he was fighting Majin Buu, he was heavily damaged. I think it is safe to say that he would not be able to stand up to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta but could take down Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

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Now, do I think he could defeat Cell Saga Super Saiyan 2 Gohan; I’d say no.

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Remember Gohan was weaker than his Cell Saga persona but I don’t think by THAT much. There were 3 things that his “teen-self” had that his “adult-self” didn’t; more power, control and fighting sense. All 3 of them because rusty from not training for 7 years and he suffered from it.

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Majin Vegeta (who is equal to SS2 Goku) tells Goku that he is pleased that he is more powerful than Gohan was when he killed Cell meaning that Dabura (who I figured is not able to defeat Cell Saga SS2 Gohan) would lose to those 2 pure blooded Saiyan as SS2s.

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He is without a doubt a very powerful fighter but I think he’d lose to Cell due to the Android having the advantage of regeneration on his side. The Demon King is pretty much done for if he suffers a fatal blow.

What do you think?

Dragonball Z Theories: Why Did Majin Vegeta Turn To Stone After Using the Final Explosion?

by Jeremy Carden

A few years ago, a friend told me a theory that blew my mind and even to this day I’m not sure whether or not I agree with him because it is a very solid argument but there is reason to doubt.

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The theory is; while Majin Vegeta was using the Final Explosion to completely destroy Majin Buu, somehow Buu spat on Vegeta turning him into stone.

But how could Majin Buu do that?

Well the answer is one word; mimicry.


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When Shin was fighting Buu, he launched a Ki blast from his eyes that did nothing but Buu did the same attack and it sent the little guy flying.

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Remember when Buu was fighting Super Saiyan 3 Goku? The Saiyan fired a Super Kamehameha Wave that blew a hole through Buu’s stomach.


Right after regenerating, he charged up his own Super Kamehameha and fired it at Goku and he deflected it into the horizon where it exploded (as Babidi put it that blast destroyed 1/16 of the planet).


Going back, to when Dabura was trying to beat Buu in order to not get eaten, the Demon King used the Stone Spit technique but Buu kept dodging.


A poor lizard wasn’t as fortunate (but was restored when Buu ate Dabura, yea lizard!!).

It stands to reason that he would somehow be able to mimic the move after seeing it once; I mean he did with the Eye Ki Blast and Super Kamehameha Wave.


The biggest piece of evidence my friend pointed out; the expression on Vegeta’s face when they do a close-up on him. It looked like he was shocked or surprised. It kind of looks like he had a look of failure on his face or something like that.



Krillin and Piccolo’s stone statues had that same look, the horror of seeing their bodies turned to stone by they could do nothing about it until they had completely transformed.

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While using the attack, Vegeta was screaming as he was channeling all of his energy into the blast to destroy the pink menace.

Here is the reasonable doubt; it was also shown that Buu had been ripped into pieces and seemingly destroyed before Vegeta was.


I don’t know how certain I can be that off-screen before he was shown to be ripped apart, Buu could have spat on Vegeta but we just didn’t see it. Also even if Buu had done it, there is no guarantee that Vegeta would have noticed; he was screaming his lungs out as his body was expelling all of its Ki. Not to mention his eyes were closed during the explosion and he could have opened them while he was feeling his body not blowing up by using the Final Explosion but hardening from the Stone Spit explaining why he had that look on his face after he was turned to stone.



I mean when you think about it, the Final Flash (as Piccolo mentioned) could have killed Cell if he had not stepped out of the way at the last second, just getting part of his upper torso blown off before regenerating.


Vegeta used the Final Explosion, and possibly before being ripped/blown to pieces, Buu spit on Vegeta disrupting the attack before it could do its job and then Buu regenerates.

A lot of similarities there…

There seems to be solid evidence on both sides of the argument as to whether or not it was the Final Explosion that turned Vegeta into stone or Buu using the Stone Spit on him.

The attack is only used once in Z of course due to it killing the user so the end result of the attack has only this one example to be used in this debate.

It is true that Super Saiyan 4 Goku attempted this attack TWICE in DBGT;



First he uses it on Super Android 17 with the attack being big enough to be sensed by the Z-Fighters far from the battlefield promoting Vegeta to scold Goku for using the attack.

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Thankfully, 17 put up a shield at the last second protecting himself and Goku as well only exhausting his Ki making him revert back to kid form.



Then he attempted to use it against Omega Shenron only for Vegeta to show up to stop his fellow Saiyan from making the same mistake that he did against Majin Buu.

Wow for some reason Goku seemed a bit suicidal in GT…

But since Goku failed to successfully use the attack in both situations we do not see if he would have turned to stone as well after using the attack.

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Whenever I think of explosion or self-destruct used in the DB series, I am reminded of the times characters used Self-Destruct techniques and barely anything reminded of their bodies like “Farewell Mr. Tien” or the Saibamen Bomb.


Final Explosion just doesn’t seem like an attack that leaves behind a stone corpse after the attack is completed at least that is what I believe.

In any case, this theory is interesting and it still rattles my brain even to this day.

What do you think?

Dragonball Z Best of the Earthlings: Tien vs. Krillin

By Jeremy Carden

The purpose of this blog is to hopefully settle a long standing debate to decide who the most powerful earthling in the series is.


And I can tell you right now that it is not Mr. Satan!


And it isn’t Uub either! True before fusing with Mr. Buu in GT to become Majuub, Uub was 100% human but the fact that he was the resurrected form of Kid Buu kind of leads to an unfair advantage.


In any case, the two humans or should I say super humans up for the #1 spot are Tien and Krillin.


Based on interviews by Akira Toriyama, it is said that Krillin IS the strongest earthling meaning that he is superior to Tien.

However, I have room for doubt mainly due to what I’ve seen in the series. I’ve read the manga once so I can’t really use a lot of information from it. Most of my reasoning will come from the anime which I’m sure most of you are familiar with.


First I’d like to clear the air of something a lot of people throw in Tien’s direction; Tien isn’t 100% human because he is said to be the descendant of the Three-Eyed Clan. Well it is mentioned in the Daizenshuu books, some online biographies of the character and other sources. The only time I remember seeing anything about him being “related” to aliens through having a bloodline involving the Three-Eyed Clan was in a video strategy guide book that I read a long time ago.

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Even so I doubt that it has anything to do with making Tien a full on alien or even partly one. I mean from what I could gather from a lot of reliable sources was that Tien actually gained his third eye through intense meditation. Similar to Piccolo we see Tien power up through mental preparation and spiritual enlightenment. So, if Tien IS a descendant from the Three-Eyed Clan that could potentially mean that the only way he could have gotten his third eye was through that meditation and not from birth. I know we see him with that extra eye as a kid training with Tao but maybe he started meditation at an early age?

Honestly, I don’t know who cares anyway?


Tien has an extra eye but Krillin doesn’t have a nose! So that’s that and I feel that even if Tien is a descendant of that clan it doesn’t really make him any less human than Krillin and puts him in fare running for this comparison.

For this I’ll be breaking it down into 6 categories:

  1. Training
  2. Battles
  3. Bravery
  4. Techniques
  5. Power Levels
  6. Who would win?

Category #1: Training

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Krillin began his training as a member of the Orin Temple where he was bullied by the stronger and much taller students before he became fed up with their bulling. He then ventured off to find the legendary Master Roshi and from there trained with his rival turned lifelong friend Goku for their first World Martial Arts tournament.


Thanks to their strict training schedule, he was able to raise his abilities from “normal human standards” to superhuman due to surpassing the normal limitations of human strength. He proved to be a strong contender in the World Tournament until he met his match in his master disguised participant: Jackie Chun.

From there until the beginning of the next tournament, he went back to Roshi’s island to once again continue his training for the next tournament alongside Yamcha. His power did increase but not as much as Goku’s thanks to his power going up through battling the likes of the Red Ribbon Army, training with Korin and his 3 years of traveling on foot around the world.

After being wished back with the Dragonballs, Krillin went to train with Korin before the 23rd World Tournament and that raised his power quite a bit. He was even shown to now be able to fly and use powerful Ki attacks.

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During the 5 year gap between DB and DBZ it appears that Krillin was living at Kame House and he might have done a bit of training while he was there. It was shown that his power level was 206 when compared to Roshi’s 139 possibly proving that he had finally surpassed his master. I know his number is higher than Roshi’s but remember Master Roshi could still bulk up to his “MAX POWER” form for battle increasing his strength.


Until the Saiyans arrived, Krillin trained at Kami’s Lookout for an intense training session increasing his power to over 1,000.

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After the battle with the Saiyans, he went to Namek with Gohan and did some mind training to help hone their skills before touching down on the planet.


Although he did not do any real training on Namek he did get a power boost from Guru that released his unlocked potential. I’ll get more into that when I get to the Power Level section of this blog.

He was dead for the remainder of the saga after Frieza blew him up and was wished back with the Namek’s Dragonballs on Earth later on.

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Despite the Garlic Jr. Saga being filler, we don’t see him training just hanging with his then girlfriend Marron and fighting Garlic’s men.

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Before Mecha Frieza returned, Roshi comments that ever since he broke up with Marron he has been training at a serious level that he hadn’t done before.


After Trunks departs leaving them with the message of the Android threat on the horizon, Krillin AGAIN goes to Roshi for training.


He does do some sparring with Yamcha to prep for the Cell Games but that only goes as well as could be expected…


7 years after the threat of Cell, it is learned that Krillin had given up fighting to become a family man with his wife 18, daughter Marron and he lives at Kame House: my guess is that Roshi only agreed to it since 18 would be living with him.

It was mentioned that he grew his hair out since as a fighter dedicated to training a bald head was a symbol of that or something.

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The only time(s) we see him training is before the World Tournament with 18 in order to win prize money to leave Roshi’s house.

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Later on he and Yamcha are seen training on Grand Kai’s Planet showing the two to actually be more or less even with each other despite BOTH saying that they had given up fighting after the death of Cell.


He is older in the later years of Z and practically an old man in GT so that pretty much covers ALL of the training that he endured as a Z-Fighter.

Now let’s move on to Tien:

Like Krillin, Tien began his training at a young age but instead of simply training to be a martial artist…Tien was trained to be an assassin!


Training with Mercenary Tao and Master Shen, he learned how to be a cunning, deceptive, powerful and dangerous warrior.

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He knew about pressure points and how to cripple/immobilize his opponents which proved to be quite effective when we saw him fight in the World Tournament against Yamcha, Jackie Chun and Goku.


After changing his ways, his training shifted from martial arts to the Evil Containment Wave in order to end the threat of King Piccolo after Roshi had died in his failed attempt. In only a matter of days, Tien had mastered the technique but was saved by Goku’s intervention that killed Drum and Piccolo.


Later on, he went to Korin’s Temple for some training with the feline master for the next tournament with the desire to defeat Goku (who at the time was training with Kami).


During the 5 year gap between DB and DBZ, he was off training around the globe with his companion Chiaotzu.

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He then ventures to the Lookout to train for nearly a year for the Saiyan threat raising his power over 1,000 like the rest of the Z-Fighters.


After dying, he goes to King Kai’s Planet and that proved to raise his power level a considerable amount. He went from being beaten around by Nappa to being able to EASILY defeat Burter and Jeice at the same time!


He remained there longer than Yamcha before being wished back with the Dragonballs so it can be assumed that he raised his power level a good deal before finally being wished back.

Moving forward 1 ½ years later before Goku returned after the battle on Namek, he is shown to again be traveling for some intense training.

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After Trunks leaves, he decided to train like never before in order to be prepared for the Android threat.


He was actually going to take a trip into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber before the Cell Games but after Goku (as a Full Power Super Saiyan) admitted to being no match for Cell, Tien decided to step down since despite a power increase for training in the chamber for a year, he figured that it would not be enough to even hold a candle against Cell.

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Finally, after Cell’s defeat he says that the others would probably never see him again as he would isolate himself from humanity to train. His last appearance in battle was to save Dende from Buutenks’ attack before being knocked out later on with a kick from his lower half cut off by Goku.

It can be assumed that despite not being seen at the final tournament, Tien was still in training around the Earth.


We even see him meditating under a waterfall at the end of GT where he spots Goku riding off with Shernon into the sky.

Winner: Tien


Alright I have to give this round to Tien because the man NEVER stops training in order to improve his skills. This was clear after learning about Goku training with Kami and I believe it was Yamcha or Krillin who mentioned that if he is training with Kami not only was he the best in the world due to him stopping King Piccolo but now training with the Guardian of the Earth means that the gap between their powers would never be closed. This lead to Tien saying that no matter what he was going to train even harder in order to beat Goku in the next tournament and that kind of never say die attitude was what helped him get even stronger.


Then hearing that Goku had defeated Frieza as a Super Saiyan making him the best in the universe, he even thinks to himself that he’d like to fight him just to see how he would measure up in the universal ranking! Talk about a real contender!


Krillin is strong but his “breaks” in training really hurt more than helped increase his skills not to mention he was walking in the shadow of Roshi much longer than he should have. Instead of training under him for so long he should have been like Goku or Tien by travelling the world for training rather than just doing the same thing over and over simply shooting Kamehameha Waves at the ocean.

Even after learning about the Android threat he decided to train with Roshi which made little to no sense at all to me…

So that is why I feel that Tien wins this round!

Category #2: Battles

Throughout the series, both fighters had numerous amounts of battles and most of which were with characters more powerful than themselves.

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If I had to pick from the DB days Krillin’s best battle, I’d have to say it was his fight with Piccolo Jr. Even though he lost that match, his skill was enough to surprise even Piccolo! He learned how to fly, manipulate Ki to distract Piccolo for a punch to the face and even stood up after being hit extremely hard into the ring.


Tien’s was most likely his fight with Goku both times in the tournament and even though Goku won the fight physically, Tien won the fight by technicality. In their rematch, Goku was superior but Tien had some new tricks like the Multi-Form that even caught Goku off guard a few times. Not to mention he put up a good fight against Piccolo’s minion Drum but had to be saved by Goku.

In DBZ, these 2 didn’t really fight in a major battle until the Saiyans arrived.

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Of course we all know that Tien’s main “fight” was against Semi-Perfect Cell holding him off with the Neo-Tri Beam! That had to be a powerful attack to keep an opponent who was stronger than Android 16, Kamiccolo and Android 17 in check.

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Krillin’s only “real fight” in my book was against Frieza but even then it wasn’t a fight but more of stalling and staying alive while Dende healed Gohan.

However, Krillin did fight ALL of Cell’s forms!

  • He and Future Trunks destroyed the Baby Cell in Gero’s lab
  • He fought Imperfect Cell to protect a girl and her brother
  • He attacked Semi-Perfect Cell in an attempt to stop him from absorbing #18
  • He attacked Perfect Cell in a rage after Cell absorbed her
  • He ALMOST attacked Buff Cell after he spit up 18 but Piccolo held him back
  • Finally he and the other Z-Fighters attacked Super Perfect Cell during his beam struggle with Gohan

True some of those “fights” were filler but still worthy of note.


Overall, Krillin didn’t have a lot of wins in DBZ but he knew how to escape fighters like Frieza, Cell and Dodoria with crafty moves like the Solar Flare up his belt; which he totally stole from Tien….


I know movies are not canon but if I were to pick out at least one that was worthy of note it would be Tien vs. Future Trunks in Bojack Unbound.

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Krillin was freaking out about his battle with Piccolo especially in terms of being killed with the Special Beam Cannon. So in a comical fight that was so ridiculous that even Piccolo forfeited, Krillin won…

Tien on the other hand faced his opponent like a champ and asked Trunks to not hold back and their fight was a couple of minutes long but one of the best parts of the movie in my opinion.

He was pretty much holding his own against Trunks who had trained twice in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber!

If you ask me I think that Tien was holding his own and actually winning the fight due to being the more experienced fighter even landing a blow to Trunks’ face!

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However, he turned Super Saiyan…


But still Tien did not back down!

Gohan is fighting?!

Gohan is fighting?!

Yamcha gave up the will to fight after learning Gohan and the others entered the tournament

Gohan, Trunks and Piccolo are fighting? This is a load of bull...

Gohan, Trunks and Piccolo are fighting? This is a load of bull…

Krillin was freaked that Super Saiyans were in the tournament

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But Tien stood his ground!

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Even though he lost he fought to the end!


But looking at the main series…I suppose that since Krillin actually battled Frieza (since Tien was dead), pretty much all of Cell’s variations along with Super and Kid Buu I’m gonna have to give this round to Krillin

Winner; Krillin


Tien’s battles were more impressive in my book BUT Krillin faced down a lot more opponents. Heck remember that he ALMOST killed Frieza with his trademark attack and that was certainly worthy of merit!

                                                  Category #3: Bravery

This round is a bit more difficult because despite Tien and Krillin being highly outclassed by the Saiyans and other alien races they still train and fight even in battles that they know they cannot win.

Krillin basically has a reputation of being a coward and for good reason. I could be here for a week going down a list of all of the time Krillin either ran from a fight, complained about being so weak that he had no chance of winning or how he would die without having a girlfriend.

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In terms of bravery, I feel that Tien is no doubt the braver warrior. Whether it comes from him being trained as an assassin from childhood basically wiping out fear from his mental dictionary or what he was certainly a warrior not afraid to take on tougher opponents because it would make him stronger.

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Krillin did show some spine during the fight with Nappa and Vegeta especially after Yamcha died and he took out 3 Saibamen with one shot. Then he protected Gohan a couple of times as well in order to save him from the Saiyan’s wrath.

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The highlight of his bravery came in the Buu Saga when he opted to stall Super Buu as long as he could for the others to escape into the Lookout to hide. In his mind he mentioned how not even Gohan, Goku or Vegeta could stop this beast so he had no chance but decided to give his life for this friends and family.

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Looking back at the Cell Saga, he was brave taking on Cell multiple times but let’s face it most of those bouts were out of his “love” for 18 or a pretty girl (remember that time he faced Imperfect Cell to help that girl and her brother escape).


I think that we can all agree that Tien’s finest moment was when he used his Neo Tri-Beam to stall Semi-Perfect Cell from absorbing 18 and becoming perfect.

The guy was putting his life at risk to stop the Android threat and succeeded for the time being until Vegeta AND Krillin’s selfish desires allowed Cell to reach his perfect form.


After some debate, Krillin did jump in to fight Kid Buu proving that he was at least braver than Yamcha!


Krillin does jump in to help his friends but only after a lot of stalling and going over his options. He was quick to criticize Piccolo for jumping in to help Gohan in his beam struggle with Cell only for Tien to cut him off saying that he KNEW he didn’t have a chance but did so anyway because sitting on the sidelines wasn’t worth it unless he fought until the very end.


This inspired Tien to be the FIRST to power up before flying off the help. Not counting Vegeta, Krillin was the LAST to fly off to help meaning that even Yamcha grew a backbone before Krillin!


Going back to his decision not to train in the Time Chamber, before getting to the battlegrounds of the Cell Games, Tien and Yamcha said that they’d go to watch but not participate due to the power of Cell being far too great. So he respectfully bowed out…

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But overall, Tien has been facing down giants for quite some time even before Z with opponents like King Piccolo. Krillin is brave especially for his size but overall I’ve got to give this point to Tien because he never backs down.


Not to mention in Battle of Gods, Krillin ran away when Bills attacks but Tien jumped in!


And even though he was easily tossed aside when his fist was caught but chopsticks he still attempted to fight which was more than Krillin attempted to do!

Winner: Tien

Category #4: Techniques

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To keep things simple I’ll just be using the techniques that these 2 have become popular for like Krillin’s Kamehameha or Destructo Disk along with Tien’s Tri-Beam and Multi-Form.

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I’ll say that in terms of Ki manipulation, the winner would be Krillin because the guy can come up with some techniques that will help him contend with even the most powerful beings in the universe. If not for Vegeta’s intervention, Nappa would have been killed with the Destructo Disk.

He ALMOST killed Frieza in his 2nd form with his Chain-variation of the move that cut off his tail.

Of course being a student of Roshi, he was able to use the Kamehameha and even proved to manipulate it against Garlic Jr. to catch his opponent off guard.

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Ki attacks aside, I’d have to say that martial arts master goes to Tien because he never stopped training in order to improve his skills making him a VERY skilled combatant.

Not to mention that many of the crafty moves Krillin uses to hold his own against powerful opponents came from Tien like the Multi-Form and Solar Flare.

Also remember the Tien is able to counter the Kamehameha Wave


He even shocked Jackie Chun using the wave during their match at the World Tournament because he deflected Yamcha’s in round 1 and somehow mimicked it with ease


His multi-arm ability might prove to be a challenge for Krillin also in terms of close combat

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I mean I think that his power level is higher than Krillin’s so if both of them split into 3 or 4 bodies then I think that Tien would still be more powerful than Krillin’s duplicates.

Tien would have the upper hand but I wouldn’t be surprised if Krillin came up with an off the wall tactic to get back into the game.

Also remember that their techniques don’t mean that their power levels are off the charts but are specifically designed to do damage to their opponents.

Like Krillin vs. 2nd Form Frieza, his power level was over 1 million while Krillin’s wasn’t even 100,000 but the Disk is specifically an attack that cuts through nearly everything and it cut Kid Buu in half!

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However, it just bounced off of Perfect Cell’s neck…


Tien’s Neo-Tri Beam is a barrage of powerful blasts that push back the opponent. Semi-Perfect Cell could only be bested by an Ascended Super Saiyan. That doesn’t mean Tien’s power level was as high as say Super Vegeta’s but it just means that the technique was designed for that purpose to impact the opponent with a continuous stream of Ki blasts.

Winner; Tien


Hear me out on this one! Although Tien’s Tri-Beam was enough to hold Cell at bay it is a move that is deadly to his opponent but potentially deadlier to Tien being that his own life force is used up for the move depending on how much he uses it.

Krillin’s signature move isn’t the best move in terms of accuracy especially if his opponent is fast. While the Destructo Disk is deadly, if it misses the opponent then what’s the use?


The reason I give this point to Tien is because Krillin uses most of Tien’s attacks so that pretty much explains it.

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In Bojack Unbound, Tien use what looked to be a Destructo Disk but it didn’t cut Trunks but exploded on contact (remember it was a tournament so killing was not allowed, so Tien might have used a variation of the technique). But I’d say that Krillin used more of Tien’s moves than Tien did for Krillin’s moves.


It makes sense because the two trained together at Korin’s then on the Lookout so learning each other’s moves was probably a common practice.

Winner; Tien

Category #5: Power Levels

Now we all know that after the Frieza Saga, power levels were no longer recorded so I’ll have to be making assumptions in most of my numbers.


Looking at V-Jump and the Daizenshuu the highest power levels listed for Krillin and Tien are as follows;

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Tien was 1,830 while fighting one of the Saibamen and that is pretty much his only listing…

Krillin was over 10,000 while fighting Guldo and officially listed as 13,000 after receiving the “Unlocked Potential” technique by Guru.


And for some strange reason, V-Jump listed Krillin at 75,000 during the fight with Frieza!

I don’t know how that could be…

First off we know that Saiyans get a Zenkai not Earthlings so when Goku healed him with a Senzu Bean after he arrived on Namek we can assume that Krillin’s power level did not jump from barely over 13,000 to over 70,000.


I think the best piece of evidence of that theory is because when he and Gohan fought Ginyu inside Goku’s body (who had a power level of 23,000 and falling), Gohan and Krillin working together eventually managed to beat him down until Ginyu started realizing how to use Goku’s body beating Krillin, Gohan and Goku inside Ginyu’s body.

If I were to make an educated guess, after being healed by Dende after nearly dying by being impaled by Frieza’s horns that probably didn’t just heal Krillin but increased his power as well.

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However, the theory to counter that is when Goku sensed Krillin’s Ki again before he was able to leave the healing capsule to save Gohan. He said that Krillin had returned but he didn’t say that his Ki had increased but more like something along the lines of “Krillin’s back!” or something like that.

Though while fighting Frieza in his first form, Vegeta mentioned that his power, Gohan’s AND Krillin’s was increasing with every attack making special note of Gohan having more power than he even realized. So I don’t know how much that means to Krillin’s actually power level increasing…

In any case, we know that Krillin trained for 3 years for the Android threat but stopped training after Cell was destroyed (the same as Yamcha).


Now in terms of Tien’s power level I’d say he was at least around 80,000 or so at the time of the Ginyu Force’s arrival on King Kai’s Planet. I know it was filler but still the two he fought (Jeice and Burter) were at least at a power level of 40,000+ not to mention he used the Multi-Form to split into 2 and was still making sport of the two.

He was also on the planet longer than Yamcha opting to remain dead until the Namek Dragonballs could be used 130 days later meaning he got more training.

Not to mention the 1 ½ before Goku’s return then another 3 years of training before the Androids arrived POSSIBLY but his power above 500,000.


Of course his power was again boosted after another 7 years of training between Cell and Buu.

I honestly, don’t think that Krillin OR Yamcha ever reached a power level that measured over 1 million but that is just my opinion.

If there was a human who reached over the 1 million mark it would be Tien.

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Also keep in mind that although Krillin got his potential unlocked we have yet to see the limits of Tien’s abilities unlocked!

Winner: Tien

Category #6: Who would win?

If these 2 had an all-out battle, I’d have to cast my vote for Tien. However you’d also have to ask yourself when would these two actually battle it out in the series? If you ask me, I think that Krillin was in his prime after the 3 years of training for the Android Saga. For Tien that is difficult to say because he was ALWAYS training…

Let’s see I think it would be fair if their battle took place between their Android Saga personas.

Overall, Tien is the better fighter, tactician, is far more disciplined, braver and with 3 eyes instead of 2, I could “see” him being able to see Krillin’s moves faster than Krillin cold detect his.

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As I mentioned above, if they used the Multi Form, Tien’s duplicates would be more powerful than Krillin’s.

I could see Tien somehow countering or deflecting Krillin’s attacks or even mimicking them.


He did fall prey to the Solar Flare when Goku used it on him so he isn’t immune to it.

I also think the Tien is faster than Krillin not to mention he doesn’t lose his cool in the middle of combat.

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Trust me if Krillin used his signature move to cut Tien in half then it is lights out!


However, I could see Krillin being beaten by that Tri-Beam…

Looking at their battles from the Android Saga, Tien would get my vote no doubt as the victor!

So what do you think? Who do you consider to be the best of the Earthlings; Tien or Krillin?

Calling All Gentlemen: The Gentlemen Return

By Jeremy Carden


On September 21, 2013 at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia in front of the Hancock Welcome Center the second gathering of A Gentlemen’s Touch Photo shoot was held. Men from around the Liberty campus and even other states like Pennsylvania and New York attended the event.  The age group ranged from late teens to men over 30-years-old showing the diversity of the men who support A Gentlemen’s Touch.

Not to mention there was one youngster among the group. It is still in discussion as to whether or not there will be a photo shoot just for kids who fall into the category of “young men.”

Photographers from PA and NY were present along with other photographers from the Lynchburg area. The photo shoot began on the backside of the Welcome Center before moving to the Dr. Jerry Falwell Memorial Garden on campus where a beautiful fountain and house are located. This proved to be an excellent location for some great photos.


What made the photo shoot such a success was that all of the participants had their own unique style to bring to the table. Most of the gentlemen wore blazers while others wore jackets or vests. Some of the standout accessories of the photos shoot were fancy bow-ties and glasses. Other accessories included: watches, scarves, and bracelets for men.


A Gentleman’s Touch is a men’s fashion blog with God at the Helm to teach men of all ages the importance of dressing with class and style rather than swag.

Despite the cloudy sky and cold air, the weather was on their side because it did not rain until after the event. It was a great time of fellowship as everyone made new friends and connections with the various participants and photographers.

Following the event, the men went to lunch at the Spot Eatery where K.J. Jones (one of the founders) spoke about the future of A Gentlemen’s Touch. The idea for the expansion would include more photo shoot events and participating in fashion shows.

To see highlights from the event check out the the video: “Calling All Gentlemen – The Gentlemen Return”

For more information on A Gentleman’s Touch check out their social media websites listed below:

Facebook: A Gentleman’s Touch

Twitter: @OfficialAGT 

Tumbler: A Gentleman’s Touch 

Instagram: @AGentlemansTouch

Vegeta Is The Best Admin Bio: Jeremy Carden


Name: Jeremy Carden

Age: 22

Birthday: August 29th (same day as Michael Jackson)

Zodiac Sign: Virgo

Hometown: Clover, Virginia (seriously it is in the middle of nowhere)

College: Liberty University

Occupation: Full-time graduate student (Theological Studies aka Seminary)

Relationship status: Single as a dollar and I’m not looking for change! Haha but seriously if the right woman comes along I wouldn’t mind being in a relationship

Hobbies: Writing, free-styling, reading, video games, TV and of course running this Facebook page

Height: 5’8

Favorite food: I don’t have one because I’m an EXTREMELY picky eater

Favorite Movie: Too many to choose from!

Dreams: Well I LOVE writing songs, poems, short stories and screenplays not to mention blogs. My dream job would be a professional songwriter but I don’t wanna be stuck doing just one thing for the rest of my life. I’d love to use all of my skills to hopefully one day write a book, do voice over work for a TV show or something among other things.

I got a Bachelor’s in Communications (Advertising/Public Relations), Minor of Biblical Studies and Associate’s in Religion in 2013 and by next Spring I hope to be done with my Master’s. I’ve always loved challenging myself academically as you can see.

Music: Let’s see…um I like everything except heavy metal and rock

Songwriting: I write songs from practically every genre except heavy metal and rock so I am very versatile in my writing skills so hopefully it will make me more marketable in the future

Why is Vegeta my favorite?

Well I’ve ALWAYS loved the anti-heroes of a series where it was the Quantum Ranger from Power Rangers Time Force, Kevin Mask from Ultimate Muscle, Vlad from Danny Phantom or anyone who fits the bill of not 100% good or evil but someone out for their own gain.  I just like how they play by their own rules and don’t stick to the status quo of a good guy or villain.

Vegeta had the best dialogue, some of my favorite attacks and comparing him to Goku is like Batman and Superman. (I’ll have to do a blog about that someday…).

He is highly underrated and in need of a “main villain” victory but hey Akira doesn’t like him so *shrugs*

Aside from him one of my favorite characters is Cell well more specifically Perfect Cell

How do I remember all of this DB info?

Well I’ve always had a good memory and shows like Pokemon, those PBS shows I used to watch like Dragontails, Thomas the tank engine, etc. I mean I grew up on that stuff and well hey what can I say I just remember things haha

But I’ve seen like every DB episode like 100 times so that might explain why I can recall stuff off of the top of my head

Embarrassing story: Well I used to think Fruit Gushers would turn my head into one like on the commercials and I didn’t try one until I was 13, but they are some of my favorite snacks now!

Other websites:

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=150687017&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile

My Music Website: http://jccarde5.wix.com/jtunesmusic

SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/jccardenlyrics

Pokemon Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pok%C3%A9mon-Trainer-Paul/427588670691868

Vegeta Is The Best: https://www.facebook.com/princevegetaisthebest

Twitter: https://twitter.com/jccarden

Cold Family Relations; Past encounters between Cooler and Frieza

by Jeremy Carden


Based on his talk with Goku before transforming, Cooler mentions that Frieza was always trying to defeat him. Cooler goes further in saying that Frieza definitely had the edge BUT that was until Cooler transformed beyond the 4th form. He said Frieza was always trying to defeat him in order to prove himself the strongest in the universe.

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Similar to Bills in Battle of Gods, Cooler said that he would have killed Frieza sooner or later. Wow, talk about family values…

Now, the main question is; when did these two battle each other (on more than one occasion) and what form(s) did they fight in?

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I think some of the clues lie in the dialogue that they use when describing their different transformations. On Namek, Frieza says that his 3rd and 4th forms were never seen or used before on an opponent. I think he might have used his 2nd form before, he says that King Vegeta never saw it and even taunts Vegeta saying that he didn’t even need to transform in order to destroy the Saiyan race.

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After he transformed, he extended his tail to attack Gohan, Krillin and Vegeta. The three of them dodge and Frieza mentions that he was impressed as most opponents do not see that technique coming. To me that may imply that he has either used his 2nd form before OR he did the tail extending attack to opponents in his first form. However, when talking about this topic I’d probably lean more towards him using his 2nd form before.

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Zarbon was the one to tell Vegeta that Frieza could transform so it stands to reason either Zarbon has seen Frieza transform before OR Frieza just told him that he could transform.

DB Wiki reads:

“Over time, Frieza’s power became so great that his body could not comfortably contain it, and a series of physical transformations were developed to limit his actual strength.”

This could hint that Frieza AND Cooler’s past battles most likely took place when they were in their “final” or “true” forms. Frieza’s 1st-3rd forms are used to conserve or restrict his power.

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Cooler said that he had the edge which possibly meant that at some point, Frieza had the power or had the potential to reach a power level that would exceed his brother’s. However due to the strain on his body, he was forced to convert or create his alternate forms in order to keep his power “bottled up.”

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What I mean by “had the power” is that during one of their battles, when Frieza “had the upper hand” or “edge” as Cooler put it the fight was probably similar to 100% Frieza’s fight with Super Saiyan Goku in a certain aspect. Of course Goku was toying with Frieza just to see what he was like at full power; inferior to Goku’s power by 30 million.

But as the battle went on, Frieza’s body felt the strain of being at such a high power level (120 million) and his power began to fall. It stands to reason during one of his fights with Cooler, Frieza was winning but the longer the fight went on the more his power dropped keeping him from finishing the job to prove himself #1 in the universe (or at least better than his older brother).

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Cooler probably noticed this and did the OPPOSITE and by that I mean he embraced his final form as his “normal” form. Instead of having alternate forms that concealed his power, that strain of his growing power in his final form was something Cooler possibly mastered. This was what probably led to him “unlocking” his 5th form.


Which is extremely similar to how Goku and Gohan mastered their Super Saiyan forms; by using their “final form” as their “normal” state, they were able to eliminate the strain on their bodies and by doing so were able to unlock the new form of Super Saiyan 2.

Yeah I know, Gohan did it first but I think that since Goku mastered Super Saiyan as well he probably reached the form in Other World faster than Vegeta did since he had already controlled the SS transformation.

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I think of Frieza’s transformation like Vegeta and Trunks’ Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyan forms. In their case it wasn’t about concealing their power levels like Frieza but exerting it which caused a strain on their bodies like Frieza’s 100% power did on him. Goku and Gohan did the OPPOSITE (like Cooler) making them more powerful as a result.

That being said, it is easy to see how Frieza’s 4th form would not be as powerful as Cooler’s who was able to completely master it. Similar to how a Super Saiyan Vegeta or Trunks would not be able to defeat Full Power Super Saiyan Goku or Gohan even if they used their Ascended Super Saiyan forms.

Alright, so I’ve established how I feel about Frieza and Cooler’s power along with their transformations. Let’s move on to how these battles could influence the family and organization as a whole.

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We know that King Cold is apparently the head of the Planet Trade Organization based on his title of “King.” Either that means he is the head of it all or he has a fascination with the nursery rhyme “Old King Cold” and liked the title so much he decided to use it.

Frieza and Cooler rule their own respective parts of the galaxy as Cooler pointed out in the beginning of Cooler’s revenge that Goku’s pod escaping was Frieza’s problem not his because it was not his sector of the galaxy it was Frieza’s.

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DB Wiki states that Cooler has at least 256 planets in his “collection” or domain and Frieza has at least 79 (that we know of) in his command. It seems obvious that they both have many races under their control as well.

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This goes back to a post I did awhile back about what happened to the “Frost Family Domain” after they were all killed, we are talking about 100’s of planets now free of their control.

Did another powerful tyrant emerge out of the Frost race or did another alien race come in and take over? If the writers ever decide to continue the series this could really be something they could run off of and make it fit into the timeline of the anime/manga.

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We know that Cooler was going to kill Frieza eventually but the question remains due to their vanity and superiority complexes; would they REALLY kill each other? I know in Tenkaichi 1, in the What-If story when Frieza defeats his brother instead of killing him, he decided to make his brother work for him. I could see this happening considering they ARE brothers and if one proved that they were #1 in the universe over the other I’m sure killing them would not be the satisfaction that they were looking for.

That doesn’t mean one would not EVENTUALLY kill the other, but a quick kill probably wouldn’t be what would make either one of these tyrants “happy.”

Not to mention if Cooler or Frieza proved to be superior over the other, they’d take command over the planets in the other one’s empire in order to expand their own domain.


How does King Cold fit into this?

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Well considering we don’t know his true power or if he has advanced forms similar to his sons. I honestly think that he does considering the 4th forms of Cooler and Frieza are really their “true” forms, it could be that King Cold is in his 2nd form similar to how Frieza used his 1st form as his “normal” form. I think that unlike his dad or brother, Cooler embraced his “true” form and that unlocked his 5th form. I think King Cold probably had a “first form” like Frieza but then managed to move it up to form 2 as his normal form.

In Tenkaichi 3, I believe he said he doesn’t like Cooler or rebellious sons. It stands to reason Frieza had more in common with his dad (most likely the use of alternate forms to conceal or manage their true power), Cooler was probably “corrupt” or “power hungry” from a young age and wanted nothing more than to take his dad’s place.

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I know they are not Saiyans but as Turles put it, “Son kills father…that’s so Saiyan…”

The same might be true of the Frost Race in terms of power and obtaining it at ANY costs. This could be why Cold “spoiled” Frieza so that unlike Cooler, he’d work closely with him and not try to cause a coup and steal his power. That might explain why Cooler works alone and the “relationship” between Cold and Frieza seems to be stronger than he and Cooler.

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One must wonder (canon or not) if it was Cooler who was floating in space in a near-death condition and not Frieza, would Cold rescue him like he did Frieza?


Cooler went to earth not to avenge Frieza’s death but to restore the tarnished image to his family’s name. That doesn’t hint at him respecting his father either, if one of their family members brings shame to the family name it makes ALL of them look bad.

What do you think about all of this?

Who would win Bardock or King Vegeta?

by Jeremy Carden

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My answer; Bardock BUT it depends on the circumstances

Bardock The Father Of Goku Part 1 5 Japanese HD 2

Now for this fight we are using Bardock from “Bardock: The Father of Goku” AFTER he receives the ability to see the future.

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As much as fans LOVE Super Saiyan Bardock he will NOT be used due to the no brainer of a victory that he’d get if I did use him for this fight

There are a few factors that MIGHT give King Vegeta the advantage if these two actually fought;

1. Bardock getting “distracted” during the battle with his random visions

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We saw during his battle with Dodoria’s Elite that Bardock’s visions come at random and distract him from a fight. That nearly got him killed but at the last second he was able to dodge a powerful strike to his chest to finish the elite off with an energy wave. One could argue that he would see a vision of King Vegeta’s next attack or something but his visions don’t seem to be that soon or current, they tend to be of the future in terms of important events rather than the fight he is experiencing at the moment.

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I could see Bardock having an upper hand in the battle only for one of those visions to come out of nowhere distracting him from landing an attack leaving him open for King Vegeta to retaliate.

2. Bardock’s tail being pulled rendering him powerless

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Now when it comes to his tail, I don’t think that Bardock’s is a weak spot anymore. To me he probably followed in the footsteps of the Saiyan elite (Vegeta, Nappa and most likely King Vegeta) and worked around his tail in order to “master” it like his son did so he would no longer weaken if someone did manage to grab it.

Another thing to consider would be whether or not King Vegeta would resort to that to defeat Bardock. Based on ranking it was a King against the Lowest of the Low in terms of Saiyan ranking but not power level-wise.


Bardock was possibly the 2nd strongest Saiyan (that we know of in the canon side of DB) not to mention he and his team were known not only among the Saiyans but by Frieza himself as a powerful team of soldiers taking on missions that some elites wouldn’t even take on and still came out alive.

If these two fought, I doubt that there would not be spectators. I mean it is the king vs. one of his subjects and I bet there would be people watching. Now, if Bardock was winning and Vegeta did have to resort to grabbing his tail, I don’t think he would do it. Why?

I know the Saiyans are barbaric by nature and being of a warrior race, fighting is in their blood. But if King Vegeta is even half as prideful as his son was shown to be, I don’t think he’d grab Bardock’s tail (if it did weaken him) in order to win. Saiyans grabbing each other’s tail is like two guys fighting and one kicks the other in the balls.

Double Galick Cannon to 2nd Form Frieza's back!

Double Galick Cannon to 2nd Form Frieza’s back!

Now if it was life and death and Bardock was about to kill Vegeta, he MIGHT grab his tail but simply out of pride I don’t know if he would. I mean his son isn’t one who is above shooting people from behind but I don’t think King Vegeta would grab Bardock’s tail or vice versa.

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3. As a Great Ape would Bardock be a mindless beast or in control of his actions?

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We know from the video games that King Vegeta is in control of himself as an ape. I know video games aren’t the best form of accurate information but as the king, I think he would be in control in order to lead assaults while transformed.

Does Bardock have control?

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In the beginning of the movie, he and his team fight as an organized squad because think of it this way; none of them attacked each other! They only destroyed the city and the people on the planet. The next morning they mentioned how they don’t remember anything as an ape and it felt like a dream only for one of them to say that Bardock remembers everything from every battle hinting that he does in fact retain his consciousness even while transformed.

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Now that we’ve gotten King Vegeta’s possible advantages out of the way, it is time to explain why I feel that Bardock would win. Honestly, these two are pretty much their son(s) battling in the Saiyan Saga.


Vegeta is the royal Saiyan full of pride in himself and his heritage

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While he is up against a low-class warrior who is beneath him in terms of ranking and in power…or so it would seem.

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Though with a thirst for battle thanks to the Saiyan blood flowing through him, he is able to overcome the odds and best even the best that the Saiyan race has to offer

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King Vegeta to me is like Frieza, Dabura or Cui; someone who has great power but rarely ventures onto the field of battle unless needed leaving them open for someone to exceed their power due to actually being out on mission and in battle getting stronger and learning new skills.


He is shown in a couple of flashbacks to be in some planet takeovers with some Saiyans and his son. To me it seems that he was actually showing his son the ropes and when Vegeta got to the point that he could take care of himself then King Vegeta would just go to his throne ruling his people while his soldiers did the work.

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When the scientist/doctor mentioned that Bardock was soon going to pass King Vegeta, that hints to the king only being so high over 10,000. I estimate he was around 12,000 or so because Vegeta’s max on Earth was 18,000 and he told Freiza later on during their battle that he had surpassed his father’s power even as a kid.

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Now, when he charged Frieza’s ship like a madman, he had to fight off 100s of henchmen and he did it like a boss!!

To me that rush of power even while in his heavily damaged state reminded me of later power ups from anger that his son and grandson would eventually do in the future; Goku and Gohan.

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True by ranking and blood, King Vegeta is the top of the class in terms of Saiyan power but think of it this way; Bardock might be a low class but like his son, he is no stranger to the battlefield, fighting against stronger opponents (willingly), doing whatever it takes to increase his skills and coming up with innovative strategies during battle to get the upper hand if overpowered or outnumbered.


Add that in with his desire to fight due to being a Saiyan and I think we have the makings of a fight that could knock the king off of his throne. However, like Goku turning down the offer to become Kami or join by Frieza’s side, I believe Bardock would do the same in NOT being king.

All hail King Bardock!

All hail King Bardock!

To him that would be like he was settling, it would not be the adventure that he craves to go out and fight against stronger adversaries making himself stronger and fulfilling his desire for battle. How could he do that while sitting on a throne?

Here that Vegeta? I could totally demolish you in a battle!

Hear that Vegeta? I could totally demolish you in a battle!

What makes you say that low-class?

What makes you say that low-class?

Pretty sure that Jeremy just spelled it all out...

Pretty sure Jeremy just spelled it all out…


*reads blog* Damn…

Pssst...like I thought

Pssst…like I thought

And that is why I feel that Bardock would be victorious in a battle to the death with King Vegeta.


Is Super Saiyan Gotenks More Powerful Than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

by Jeremy Carden

This is something that a lot of people say is a crazy decision on my part in terms of me thinking two toddlers fused into a Super Saiyan could be more powerful than an experienced warrior who is 100% Saiyan and has a 400 times increase in his Super Saiyan 3 form.


Here is why I believe that Super Saiyan Gotenks is MORE powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku:

Now when you think about it there are technically “two” Gotenks when I’m talking about this subject; we have pre-Time Chamber Gotenks and post-Time Chamber Gotenks.


The boys were training in the Time Chamber for 30 minutes (and 1 extra minute for rest; 6 hours in the chamber). With one minute equaling 6 hours that means they were inside for 180 hours and that equals 7.5 days.

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So, Goten and Trunks had a little over a week of training before facing off with Super Buu in the Time Chamber, on the Lookout (destroying it) and finally down on Earth with their Fusion splitting.


The reason why I say that pre-Time Chamber SS Gotenks is POSSIBLY stronger than SS3 Goku is by using Fat Buu as the “control” in theory of calculating his power.


SS3 Goku could have killed the Fat Majin Buu in their first fight if he really tried but decided to not finish the battle in order for new heroes to emerge


He then powered down back to base form after Trunks retrieved the Dragon Radar and asked Buu for a favor: to wait 2 days until a new challenger arrived on the scene who would give him a better fight than even a Super Saiyan 3.

That right there showed that he felt the boys as a fused being would be enough to defeat Majin Buu.

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Remember Trunks begged for him to teach them how to use Super Saiyan 3 to fight Majin Buu. However, Goku told him that even if they both went to level 3 and fought Majin Buu it would not be enough and he made a valid point.

He firmly stated that Fusion was the ONLY way to win the battle. So that shows that Goku had more faith in Fusion rather than Super Saiyan 3 being the technique needed to kill Majin Buu.


True, base form Gotenks was easily defeated when he first went to fight Buu. He was nearly killed by the weight sensitive Majin Buu.

Super Saiyan Gotenks in my opinion would have been able to kill Majin Buu.


As to whether or not Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-Time Chamber) was more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku has yet to be determined. I figure that since the two of them (in my opinion) would have been able to defeat Fat Buu, it places them in the same power level realm.

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Though it is uncertain as to which one would have the upper hand in battle. Keep in mind that it was only after training in the Time Chamber did Gotenks have moves like the Super Ghost, Galatic Doughnut and other deadly moves so I’d imagine him using techniques like the Big Tree Cannon or the Kamehameha (or Kamekameha as Goten says it).

If he wasn’t then Goku wouldn’t have bothered teaching them the Fusion. If Goku KNEW the fusion was not going to be enough to stop Buu, he would have done the job himself. Also, he was more determined to teach the boys Fusion than SS3.

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Hearing Goku and Piccolo talk about how a Super Saiyan Fusion would be more than enough to stop Buu without the need of learning SS3 was similar to Old Kai telling Goku that the Potara Fusion in base form would be more than enough to defeat Super Buu without needing to transform into a regular Super Saiyan!

Now after that week of training in the Time Chamber, Goten and Trunks not only polished off the Fusion Technique; Piccolo commented on how much they improved with their Ki aligning perfectly from the start and their dance execution was flawless.


But they came up with dozens of new attacks (most of them ridiculous just to put on a show before finishing Buu right from the start; Trunks’ idea), reaching SS2 (which they skipped over) and SS3.

After fusing, Piccolo said that Gotenks’ power level (base form) was much higher than it was previously when they fused for the first time and he went off only to receive a beating from Fat Buu.

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Of course base form Gotenks wasn’t even able to inflict any (noticeable) damage to Super Buu.

After transforming, into Super Gotenks (Super Saiyan) things were a bit different. True, Buu was still able outclass him in power and speed.

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The only time that Gotenks did any damage was with a head butt and then the Super Ghost move that blew Buu up multiple times.

Alright, so basically the reason I say that Super Gotenks post-Time Chamber is stronger than Goku is because of that week of training the boys did. True, Super Gotenks wasn’t strong enough to defeat Super Buu BUT I think they grew powerful enough to close the gap between themselves and SS3 Goku and go even higher than that.


SS3 Goku cannot, I repeat cannot defeat Super Buu. I’m not just saying that based on what Goku told Vegeta in Buu’s head about how they were not able to defeat Buu as they are (SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta being their max power to fight once they escaped). SS3 Gotenks could not get the job done (well maybe if his Fusion time and SS3 power didn’t run out…). And he is stronger than Super Buu hands down!


I know SS3 Gotenks being AT LEAST x8 stronger than SS3 Goku is a stretch but look at it this way; remember SS4 Gogeta is said to be dozens of times more powerful than a “regular/un-fused” SS4. Now how come it is hard to believe that SS3 Gotenks is at least x8 more powerful than a “regular/un-fused” SS3?

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Don’t get me wrong, Mystic Gohan is above him AND Goku that is just a simple fact. However, with no power levels being measured in the Buu Saga, Zenkai was pretty much written out after the Frieza Saga (well maybe a couple were shown in the Android/Cell Sagas) it is really difficult to say how accurate I think I am about this.

My final thoughts are based on this topic; being more powerful and stronger than someone doesn’t mean you are going to be able to defeat them!

Just because Gotenks exceeds Goku’s power doesn’t mean that he could beat him. Remember SS3 Gotenks can only last 5 minutes not to mention using that form also decreases the remaining 25 minutes of the Fusion left (if Gotenks were to go SS3 right after fusing). I think that Goku can hold his Super Saiyan 3 power for at least 10 minutes given his battles with Fat and Kid Buu.

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With Instant Transmission, durability, experience and tactics on his side, Goku would be able to hold his own POSSIBLY besting the powerful tike. Although he was getting his behind handed to him by Buutenks; Super Buu, Piccolo AND Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He might be able to do pretty well against the boy(s).


Now that is why I feel that Super Gotenks is more powerful than SS3 Goku. Whether or not you believe he is x8 more powerful when he powers up to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is up to you but that is just going by the SS multipliers. True Gotenks did “skip” SS2 but that doesn’t erase the x2 increase over his SS form along with the x4 increase from SS3 making him 8 times more powerful than his SS form which again I believe is more powerful than SS3 Goku.

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Remember back in the Cell Saga, he wanted Gohan to get more powerful than him and the end result was a success!

Now in the Buu Saga, he wanted to step back and let the boys handle the burden of protecting the planet.


Overall, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan were more powerful than even Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So again, his objective of passing the torch was fulfilled.

Alright now that MY thoughts are out of the way, it is now time for you to voice your own opinion on the subject. Again please explain WHY you feel a certain way about this.

What-if: Android 20 Saved #19 From The Big Bang Attack?

by Jeremy Carden

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I’ve always been curious about this considering how fast #20 appears to be. I remember in the episode after Vegeta kills #19, he is furious at #20 hiding behind the cliffs and decided to blow up the area until he finds him. However after he fired his blast, #20 comes rushing out of nowhere to absorb the blast to increase his power and when Vegeta flies in pursuit, #20 runs away as quickly as he had appeared.


With that being said, I don’t think it would have been impossible for Gero to rush in at the last moment and absorb the Big Bang Attack.

Now I can see why the writers did NOT allow this to happen since it would pretty much guarantee the Z-Fighters would have all been killed.

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Super Vegeta allowed #19 to absorb his Ki in order to confirm that the Androids DID absorb energy through their hands which was why Vegeta ripped them off of the tubby robot before blasting him into smithereens.


He was able to play mind games and taunt #20 who was nervous. Vegeta’s tactic worked and the Android fled from the scene. Piccolo mentioned that if #20 did not fall for Vegeta’s trick he would have most likely been able to defeat Vegeta even as a Super Saiyan. Most likely due to #19 absorbing a good portion of his Ki and Vegeta also put a great deal of his remaining Ki into his Big Bang Attack to finish the battle.


Piccolo was the only other Z-Fighter on the scene able to defeat #20 as we saw after #20 jumped him for his Ki and then he got a Senzu and was easily smacking him around.

Vegeta is dead...oh crap we're screwed!

Vegeta is dead…oh crap we’re screwed!

Though if he would have absorbed Vegeta’s attack, his power would have skyrocketed to the point where I doubt even Piccolo would have had the strength necessary to stop him. Super Vegeta and Piccolo would be beaten and the only ones left being Tien, Krillin and Gohan. Even though Gohan might have a fit of rage with Piccolo defeated, I doubt it would be enough to stop #20.


Not to mention if Future Trunks arrived, I doubt that he would be able to do much either considering Gero was most likely speedy enough to dodge his sword.

Senzu Bean!

Senzu Bean!

True, Krillin did have a bag of Senzu Beans but let’s just pretend that he didn’t use them for one reason or another. Now that I think about it, #20 probably wouldn’t just kill Vegeta and Piccolo; he’d probably beat them good before taking their energy increasing his strength even further.


He knew where Goku lived so he could probably go finish him off before he would awaken from his heart virus 10 days later, he would take #19 back to his lab for repairs since his arms were no longer attached to his body.


Gero would have no reason to awaken #17 and #18 meaning that he would not be destroyed by #17

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Which would also mean #16 would still be in his “coffin”


Considering that he and #19 were able to collect life force from the Z-Fighters in their more powerful states due to their post-Namek training, he would possibly add those cells/energy to the present day Cell!


Wow, then I wonder what the Future Cell who came back to the present would do with no Androids around (unless he knew that they would be in the lab?). It would be interesting for Gero’s creation to confront him at his lab! It brings about so many possible outcomes but that is the entire point of speculation.


So now I can pretty much see why the writers avoided this by deciding to not allow #20 to absorb the Big Bang Attack.